19:00:13 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Cloud SIG
19:00:13 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Jun 15 19:00:13 2012 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:00:13 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:00:18 <rbergeron> #meetingname Cloud SIG
19:00:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'cloud_sig'
19:00:28 <rbergeron> #topic Roll Call, yo!
19:00:32 <rbergeron> who's in da house
19:00:35 <gholms> :D
19:01:21 <tdawson> Ahh ... I made it exactly on time.
19:01:33 <jzb> yo
19:01:51 <mrunge> excatly
19:02:35 <rbergeron> ;)
19:02:41 <rbergeron> well, this is a vibrant crowd
19:02:46 <rbergeron> i will give it another minute or two
19:03:05 <rbergeron> #info gholms, tdawson, mdomsch, jzb, mrunge (if you're here for cloud, if not, Hi!) present
19:03:09 <rbergeron> #chair gholms
19:03:09 <zodbot> Current chairs: gholms rbergeron
19:03:22 * gholms is slow today due to the phone keyboard
19:03:23 * mdomsch 
19:03:34 <rbergeron> gholms: ;)
19:04:08 <agrimm> o/
19:04:09 * rbergeron has now nailed agrimm
19:04:10 <rbergeron> err
19:04:11 <rbergeron> hailed
19:04:13 <rbergeron> jesus.
19:04:13 <agrimm> whoa
19:04:16 * rbergeron shakes her head
19:04:18 <rbergeron> HAILED
19:04:29 <rbergeron> okay, I'm moving on very quickly. :)
19:04:29 <mrunge> rbergeron, I'm here for the cloud and just listening.
19:04:36 <rbergeron> #topic Features! Who's got em
19:04:43 <rbergeron> agrimm: I'm looking directly at you.
19:04:52 <rbergeron> jzb: you too. Though I can explain that more fully if you'd like.
19:05:02 <agrimm> yep, I will have an F18 feature
19:05:06 <gholms> rbergeron: o___o
19:05:06 * rbergeron welcomes jzb to the cloud SIG meeting and hopes we won't scare him off.
19:05:31 <rbergeron> #info Feature submission deadline is 2012-07-24; Feature Freeze is 2012-08-07
19:05:39 <agrimm> we may get another person involved soon, too (gholms, we are dragging mspaulding in on this, right?)
19:05:50 <gholms> Good idea!
19:05:58 <rbergeron> #info Euca will be shooting for F18
19:06:23 <rbergeron> jzb: are you are ke4qqq planning anything for Fedora this time around :)
19:06:43 * rbergeron will udnerstand if he hasn't told you the plans there yet
19:06:48 <rbergeron> rustlebee!
19:06:50 <russellb> ohai
19:06:51 <jzb> I'm hoping that we'll get CS into Fedora for 18, but I can't say that's certain
19:07:09 <jzb> I'm still finding where the office supplies are at... :-)
19:07:14 <rbergeron> #info hoping for CS as well.
19:07:23 <rbergeron> jzb: they're at staples. every good home office employee knows that :)
19:07:32 * rbergeron wonders if any shifters are about?
19:08:17 * gholms spots tdawson
19:08:19 <rbergeron> tdawson: you about?
19:08:27 <rbergeron> gholms: you're not supposed to use that word :)
19:08:34 <tdawson> Yep ...
19:08:44 <rbergeron> tdawson: so your feature page is finally migrated over ;)
19:08:53 * gholms puts a quarter in the tcallaway jar
19:09:03 <tdawson> That's good to hear. :)
19:09:10 <rbergeron> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OpenShift_Origin
19:09:25 <rbergeron> tdawson: any thoughts on how it's going (since i see it's still at 0%  :D)?
19:09:36 <tdawson> Well, we're sorta stalled on passenger
19:09:45 <tdawson> We're looking into forking it.
19:09:58 <gholms> They're *that* unwilling to answer, eh?
19:10:11 <gholms> #info rubygem-passenger review stalled on licensing questions
19:10:11 <tdawson> We just can't get anything out of them, and we don't know why.
19:10:27 <rbergeron> historical precedence? ;)
19:10:39 <tdawson> But we need to do something, so we have legal looking into forking.
19:10:52 <tdawson> We're hoping that we don't have to, but we're looking at it as an option.
19:10:58 <gholms> rbergeron: They have very Mozilla-esque trademark policies.
19:11:46 <rbergeron> gholms: lol
19:11:55 <apevec> gholms, is it license or (TM) question?
19:12:05 <tdawson> I believe it is TM
19:12:05 <rbergeron> okay. i assume you guys are optimistic at this point about F18? or more ... sad?
19:12:07 <gholms> TM
19:12:11 <rbergeron> hey rackerhacker ;)
19:12:17 <tdawson> We are still optimistic about F18.
19:12:28 <rbergeron> excellent! then i will be
19:12:42 <rbergeron> #info but OSO is still optimistic about F18 :) which is good!
19:12:53 <gholms> :D
19:13:15 <rbergeron> okay, anyone else?
19:13:27 * rbergeron will be harassing until she sees feature pages, but i think y'all know that by now
19:13:39 <rbergeron> (except openshift who has already done that part)
19:13:55 <rbergeron> oh hey. russellb: openstack? folsom?
19:14:18 <russellb> pbrady was just saying earlier today that he was going to start working on a folsom feature page for f18
19:14:21 <russellb> so yes!
19:14:47 <russellb> annnd that's about the only real update i have i think
19:14:57 <rbergeron> #info russellb mentions that pbrady has said that he was going to start work on a folsom feature page for F18
19:15:02 <rbergeron> okeedokee. :)
19:15:20 <rbergeron> I think that's about all of those cloudy feature things.
19:15:27 <rbergeron> Anyone else have some other aaS that they're planning?
19:16:04 <rbergeron> I'll take that as a no
19:16:08 <rbergeron> moving onwards!
19:16:19 <rbergeron> #topic Cloud SIG FAD
19:16:33 <rbergeron> gholms: your turn to talk, I think. :)
19:16:55 <gholms> Go go gadget phone keyboard!
19:17:47 <gholms> I want to do a cloud interop FAD in mid August.
19:17:47 <rbergeron> lol
19:17:52 <rbergeron> Define interop?
19:18:14 <gholms> Making $paas work on $iaas
19:18:32 <rbergeron> and I assume the IaaS on FedorA?
19:18:54 <rbergeron> is this dependent on openshift (or any other paas) being in fedora or just more about one on the other?
19:18:54 <gholms> i.e. get together and make openshift work on eucalyptus, work out bugs, etc
19:19:07 <gholms> Combinations like that
19:19:43 <rbergeron> I assume this could extend to CS as well, and I know that OSO works on top of openstack (though I'm not sure how out of the box that is)
19:19:53 <rbergeron> I have no clue about the beast that is cloudforms either
19:19:55 <gholms> Ideally we would end up with images and/or image recipes for fedora images with our favorite paas platforms.
19:20:02 <jzb> gholms: where are you planning the FAD for?
19:20:33 <gholms> Right now I'm shooting for Durham, NC.
19:20:35 <rbergeron> jzb: i think we were looking at the durham-rdu-ish area
19:20:50 <rbergeron> tdawson: is that something you and maxamillion and others might be interested in?
19:21:00 <jzb> gholms: what dates?
19:21:05 <tdawson> Yes, I think it would
19:21:05 <gholms> Would anyone here be interested in this sort of event?
19:21:18 <jzb> If it doesn't conflict with LinuxCon, I'd be interested, I think.
19:21:19 * gholms looks for a calendar
19:21:23 <rbergeron> jzb: still need to fight it out :) I think it's not going to overlap with linuxcon
19:21:50 * jzb says the world needs more events in St. Louis...
19:21:56 <tdawson> Though neither of us are by RDU, there are several others who are ...
19:22:11 <tdawson> I'm all for St. Lois ... just down the street.
19:22:24 <gholms> Aug 13, 14, 20, or 21?
19:22:28 <rbergeron> tdawson: well, the idea is to import people in and help them out with moneys if needed. in your case, i would just go kiss up to daddy shadowman
19:22:55 <tdawson> rbergeron: *laughs* Sounds like a plan to me. :)
19:22:58 * rbergeron would say 20/21 might be easier... maybe? i have to go to fudcon in venezuela on 23-25/26... and then straight to linuxcon after that
19:23:07 <jzb> tdawson: where at?
19:23:15 <rbergeron> but whatever works.
19:23:18 <tdawson> jzb, Chicago.
19:23:42 <rbergeron> is 2 days goign to be enough to actually get stuff done?
19:23:44 <tdawson> jzb But I-55 is right outside my window ... so I can easily jump on it and drive straight there.
19:23:46 <jzb> tdawson: come on over, I'll buy you a few rounds at Schlafly's
19:24:18 <rbergeron> gholms: I gues I'm curious as to what exactly the scope might be - what prework would be optimal to have done beforehand - what specific problems need to be solved
19:24:30 * gholms wouldn't be able to show up until mid-afternoon on the 20th
19:24:31 <rbergeron> and i say that with my "budget lady" hat on
19:25:20 <gholms> So we have a bunch of things like openstack, eucalyptus, and whatnot that are in fedora or going to be in fedora, and we also have plans to have things like openshift in fedora.
19:25:30 <gholms> What we *don't* have is a guide for combining the two.
19:25:42 <gholms> i.e. recipes for building images
19:26:05 <rbergeron> #info Cloud Interop FAD is the idea - taking things like openstack, eucalyptus, etc. that are in or going to be in fedora, and then also things like plans to have openshift in fedora
19:26:06 <gholms> Or perhaps I want to run openshift on a Fedora EC2 image.
19:26:10 <gholms> How can I do that?
19:26:14 <gholms> That sort of thing.
19:26:17 <rbergeron> #info and then combining the two
19:26:29 <gholms> Does that sounds reasonable, or too lofty?
19:26:29 <rbergeron> gholms: yes, but are you going to be able to solve all of that in one weekend :)
19:26:33 <gholms> *sound
19:26:41 <gholms> That's part of why I'm asking.
19:26:43 <rbergeron> I think it sounds reasonable, but I know two things:
19:27:15 <rbergeron> #1: Everyone always wants to do a shitton of stuff at a FAD, and then nothing gets done, becuase it's like, "oh, we ran out of time on that topic, we'll finish it later."
19:27:35 <rbergeron> So i could say: we can get the stuff working, and maybe some crappy documentation, but we'd have to be able to take that and document it very well after we depart.
19:27:39 <rbergeron> Make it beautiful and all that.
19:27:58 <rbergeron> Or, we skip things like "run openshift on an ec2 image"
19:28:22 <rbergeron> And we need to assume other things like, "Having documentation about how to run openshift on euca is nice, but hey, we don't have any documentation on how to run euca, period"
19:28:57 <rbergeron> And I know there are other details - like the mythical fedora cloud - I don't know if anything is going to involve that as well, and I know seth would like that, but is that reasonable to tackle as well?
19:29:02 <rbergeron> I odn't know.
19:29:13 <rbergeron> Some of that would help in determining who would be helpful to have from openshift around.
19:29:46 * rbergeron wonders if mmcgrath would want to tag along for old timez sake too ;)
19:30:00 <gholms> Part of the reason I'm asking here is to gather input and ideas from everyone about what, exactly, would be most useful.
19:30:06 <rbergeron> anyway. gholms: did i just overwhelm you with my negative nancyism?
19:30:49 <rbergeron> gholms: maybe that mail would be helpful, maybe with "here are some specific options, seeking others"
19:31:01 * gholms agrees
19:31:11 <gholms> Does anyone in here have any more ideas right now?
19:31:21 <rbergeron> and it also helps to determine who should be there (or who we couldn't do it without)
19:31:27 <tdawson> rbergeron I know that mmcgrath would love to come to something like this, but he's always so busy, I have no idea if he'd be able to make it.
19:31:33 <rbergeron> for example: how will you all survive if i am not there to flog a meeting or order pizza?
19:31:36 <rbergeron> :)
19:31:49 <gholms> If all we end up with is a set of generic goals then there isn't really much point in bothering because nothing useful will happen.
19:32:02 <rbergeron> gholms: yup. and i've seen that happen. :)
19:32:15 <gholms> So if y'all have something more specific that would be interesting, give a shout and I'll mention it in the mail I send out.
19:32:16 <rbergeron> make tihngs more awesome is a bad goal.
19:32:27 * ke4qqq shows up late
19:33:03 <rbergeron> hello, ke4qqq
19:33:10 <gholms> Anyone?
19:33:22 <rbergeron> add gluster?
19:33:29 * rbergeron doesn't know what else there is or could be
19:33:41 <jzb> ke4qqq: we're discussing possible topics for the Cloud FAD
19:33:54 <rbergeron> topics / accomplishments
19:34:06 <gholms> "specific things to do"
19:34:07 * rbergeron knows ke4qqq has also seen the fate of overachieving fads
19:34:27 <rbergeron> well, overachieving is a bad word - the fate of too many goals
19:34:42 <jzb> over-ambitious
19:34:45 <gholms> Right now the goal is simply too broad.
19:34:46 <rbergeron> thank you
19:34:50 <gholms> We need focus.
19:34:58 <rbergeron> "if only there was a writer in the room... OH WAIT"
19:35:18 <rbergeron> gholms: agreed.
19:35:30 <rbergeron> well, send a mail, yo :)
19:35:55 <rbergeron> I don't think we're going to get much more out of everyone here. Other than a promise from russellb to attend. ;)
19:36:10 <gholms> I guess I will. I was hoping for more input. :/
19:37:03 <rbergeron> gholms: well, maybe agrimm or gregdek have more thoughts, or ke4qqq, that they can put in mail - or maybe you guys should just come up with a problem statement - i don't know if you know nothing about openshift, just how to install it, or..... if you're experts and this is ez pie
19:37:25 * agrimm reads scrollback
19:37:49 <gholms> agrimm: need moar specific ideas
19:37:55 <tdawson> Well, I think we should possibly narrow down what we want to install OpenShift Origin on ... maybe just OpenShift and Euc ?
19:38:10 <tdawson> OpenStack I mean.
19:38:44 <tdawson> Basically pick one paas, and two Iaas, and focus on those.
19:38:45 <rbergeron> well, i think that might be less than exciting for people here from other projects, but ;)
19:38:54 <gholms> Now *those* are specific enough to be useful
19:39:13 <rbergeron> I suppose it depends on how much information each group needs - if it's just some pointers and tips, that's less painful than handholding
19:39:13 <gholms> rbergeron: How can we include more people?
19:39:15 * agrimm doesn't know enough about openshift yet
19:39:20 <tdawson> True ... maybe I'm being too narrow.
19:39:46 <ke4qqq> well you have to pick goals at some point, can't please everyone
19:39:48 <rbergeron> gholms: i do'nt follow?
19:39:56 <gholms> tdawson: Those a realistic and have specific deliverables, though.
19:40:04 <rbergeron> i think people tend to involve themselves if they want to be involved ;)
19:40:29 <gholms> True
19:40:51 <gholms> I don't want to exclude people.  I just fear scope creep.
19:40:53 <ke4qqq> though if this is going to be very openshift related it begs a few questions - 1. is it a fad? (is OSO in fedora yet) and 2. it allows you to establish a threshold - if it's integrate OSO - that makes something more attractive to push resources towards
19:41:45 <gholms> Left field idea: Cloud Packaging Fest
19:42:08 <rbergeron> gholms: that would have been good a while ago. or tihs weekend. or next weekend. ;)
19:42:21 <rbergeron> i'm still all for it if people are having problems...
19:42:27 <gholms> But bad now?
19:42:34 <rbergeron> well, here's the thing:
19:42:40 <ke4qqq> gholms: my question is - does that require us to be in the same room - packaging tends to be pretty solitary imo
19:42:50 <rbergeron> feature freeze is coming in july.
19:43:01 <rbergeron> which means we'd need tickets ... now.
19:43:17 <ke4qqq> only if we cared about the marketing
19:43:18 <gholms> Yeah, bad idea. Sorry.
19:43:28 <rbergeron> or else we ... either don't go for being features and maybe some benevolent FPL person will give you advertising for free later
19:44:07 <rbergeron> gholms: it's not a bad idea - I think for certain things it's probably good - for example, if we wanted to do packaging of... i dunno... cartridges or something for openshift that was like bonus-stuff
19:44:25 * rbergeron is thinking
19:44:37 <rbergeron> I honestly think that getting the interoperability stuff is good.
19:44:47 <rbergeron> I also think that having way better documentation in general would be good.
19:44:52 <tdawson> I like the ineteroperability.
19:44:55 <rbergeron> Or, heck, even video how-tos and stuff.
19:45:19 * ke4qqq thinks that the vast majority of the folks in the cloud-sig are IaaSy so doing catridges isn't inherently interesting to them,UNLESS it's integration focused
19:45:30 <rbergeron> But I think ke4qqq has a point in that - we need to have some of this stuff in Fedora to actually ... make it be useful to Fedora, rather than just to us.
19:45:49 <rbergeron> ke4qqq: i was just ... trying to come up with ... an idea, i was trying to abstract it but totally failed
19:45:55 <rbergeron> i was thinking maybe more like recipes and stuff
19:46:23 <rbergeron> but then realized we don't really package recipes (maybe that's something thqt we could do but it sounds more like... documentation? maybe)
19:46:27 <gholms> Recipes and documentation are some things we seriously lack right now.
19:46:53 <gholms> I can /install/ openstack, but how do I /use/ it?
19:46:55 <rbergeron> Indeed.
19:47:02 <rbergeron> I don't think we have enough stuff to make a recipe.
19:47:08 <rbergeron> We have flour and no eggs. :)
19:47:30 <rbergeron> At least not a fedora-flavored recipe.
19:47:46 * jsmith mutters something about a Cloud Guide under his breath
19:48:28 <rbergeron> So.
19:48:33 <rbergeron> gholms: are those more ideas for you?
19:48:34 <rbergeron> interop
19:48:35 <rbergeron> recipes
19:48:36 <gholms> Document ALL THE THINGS
19:48:38 <rbergeron> documentation
19:48:38 <tdawson> That sounds nice ... a Cloud Guide ... I like the sound of it.
19:48:38 <rbergeron> yes.
19:48:43 <rbergeron> tdawson: we have one.
19:48:57 <rbergeron> it's in draft mode.
19:48:58 <gholms> tdawson: It needs more content. :)
19:49:10 <rbergeron> http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora_Draft_Documentation/0.1/html/Cloud_Guide/index.html
19:49:18 <tdawson> *laughs* yep ... and jsmith's name is front and center.
19:49:19 <rbergeron> of cousre, having things ot write about would probably lead to some of that content.
19:49:42 * rbergeron notes that hekafs needs to be ripped out of this guide
19:49:53 <jsmith> rbergeron: I can take care of that :-)
19:50:00 <jsmith> rbergeron: Removing stuff is easy :-)
19:50:29 <rbergeron> though we might wait and see when they actually redo gluster or if it is already
19:50:32 <rbergeron> i cna't remember
19:50:51 <rbergeron> anyway.
19:50:58 <rbergeron> gholms: is that more thoughts?
19:51:10 * rbergeron will just point out before ke4qqq does that a lot of documentation can be done not in person
19:51:21 <rbergeron> the nice thing about FADs is the additional bandwidth
19:51:28 <gholms> worksforme
19:51:30 <rbergeron> which is why interop is such a great idea
19:51:44 <rbergeron> for that type of thing
19:52:02 <rbergeron> the key there is to make sure there's actual benefit to Fedora
19:52:16 <rbergeron> and if none of the packages are in Fedora that's hard to make a call for ;)
19:52:32 <rbergeron> I would really say "if we can package all the things by feature freeze" then we'd be in great shape for august
19:52:47 * rbergeron will move on for other things, sorry to abruptly switch topics
19:52:52 <rbergeron> #topic Open Floor
19:53:00 <rbergeron> mdomsch: i saw you swing in, anytihng on your mind?
19:53:03 <gholms> Can we really schedule things with such short notice?
19:53:12 <rbergeron> schedule what things?
19:53:25 <ke4qqq> gholms: guess it depends on who you want to attend
19:53:25 <rbergeron> a fad for two months from now?
19:54:11 <gholms> rbergeron: A fad whose usefullness won't be known until feature freeze
19:54:21 <gholms> s/ll/l/
19:54:28 <jzb> is there any reason we're locked into August?
19:54:35 <jzb> maybe September or October would make more sense.
19:54:56 <gholms> I could do September.
19:55:21 <gholms> Let's continue on the list.
19:55:33 <rbergeron> anyone else? /me looks around
19:55:40 * rbergeron eats a hot dog
19:56:43 <rbergeron> going once, going twice ........
19:57:12 <gholms> Thanks, everyone!
19:57:15 * rbergeron will end it approximately almost on time in a minute if nobody else pipes up
19:57:18 <rbergeron> ;)
19:57:49 <rbergeron> thanks for coming everyone ;)
19:57:53 <rbergeron> see you next week ;)
19:57:55 <rbergeron> #endmeeting