19:02:18 <rbergeron> #startmeeting Cloud SIG
19:02:18 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri May 18 19:02:18 2012 UTC.  The chair is rbergeron. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:02:18 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:02:24 <rbergeron> #meetingname Cloud SIG
19:02:24 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'cloud_sig'
19:02:30 <rbergeron> #topic Who's here?
19:02:37 <rbergeron> (my mind is apparently not present)
19:03:10 * tdawson is here.
19:03:17 * jgreguske waves
19:03:18 * rbergeron sees tdawson, russellb, jgreguske
19:03:36 * rbergeron shall give it a few moments
19:04:00 <rbergeron> we may have a quiet crowd today :)
19:04:51 <rbergeron> #topic Agenda for Today
19:05:52 <rbergeron> #info We shall check in with whoever's present (looks like openstack, openshift, and... image building? release engineering? not sure how to describe jgreguske's interests, but we're delighted to have him here)
19:06:08 <rbergeron> #info And we need to sort out some content for http://stg.fedoraproject.org/get-fedora-options#clouds
19:06:17 <rbergeron> jgreguske: i am totally the queen of smoothness, as you can see
19:06:52 <jgreguske> I suppose image building is what I represent here ;p my hat changes daily it seems
19:07:59 <rbergeron> :)
19:08:04 <rbergeron> okay. well, shall we?
19:08:04 * tdawson has been seeing jgreguske all over, all week.
19:08:09 <rbergeron> #topic openshift
19:08:28 <rbergeron> tdawson: i think you were looking for sponsorship help from sdake, i don't know if you guys had a chance to touch base yet.
19:09:03 <tdawson> I haven't had a chance to touch base with him.  I've been working on getting a few things cleaned up and settled before figuring out which package I want to build.
19:09:18 <rbergeron> tdawson: sounds reasonable
19:09:29 <rbergeron> is rharrison helping you out with that as well, or is it all you?
19:09:31 <tdawson> I've had several volunteers for packagers,
19:09:37 * rbergeron wonders just how many people are working on it - and i bet you hve :)
19:10:12 <tdawson> We've been working this week on getting the source tarballs in a consistant state, so people can pull from them.
19:10:44 <tdawson> I thought that was a feature of github, and it sorta is, if you want the latest latest code.
19:11:07 <rbergeron> right.
19:11:23 <rbergeron> i don't think you guys really do specific branching things, do you? since you're all agile and whatnot?
19:11:45 <tdawson> Ya, we have alot of branches and tags, which made it a bit more complex
19:12:12 <tdawson> whearn wrote a nice script that tracks down the branches, and the tags, and makes tarballs of them.
19:12:21 <rbergeron> right, but i'm thinking like... "stable and suitable for distribution packaging" or sometthing like that, i guess
19:12:25 <rbergeron> cool :)
19:13:11 <rbergeron> okay. well, just keep us apprised.
19:13:17 <tdawson> Will do.
19:13:23 <rbergeron> #info OpenShift Origin was approved as a feature for F18
19:13:44 <jsmith> Awesome :-)
19:13:49 <rbergeron> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/OpenShift_Origin
19:15:09 <tdawson> I saw that we were approved, I just didn't see it on the Features page yet.
19:15:48 <rbergeron> tdawson: that's because the fedora program manager has been tied up this week a bit. i'm sure if you harass her about it she might take care of it over the weekend along with all the others :)
19:16:05 * rbergeron grins
19:16:10 <tdawson> Ah, I wouldn't want to harrass her.
19:16:15 <rbergeron> WHEW
19:16:19 <tdawson> Unless that's what it takes.
19:16:21 <rbergeron> I mean... I'll get there. :)
19:16:36 <rbergeron> I have a handful to take care of moving around.
19:16:52 <rbergeron> And a few new ones to submit as well.
19:16:54 <rbergeron> :)
19:16:57 <tdawson> No real rush.
19:17:16 <rbergeron> #action rbergeron to deal with feature-stuff related to PM job things
19:17:19 <rbergeron> yay oldjob
19:17:56 <tdawson> But as for your one comment, we do have stable releases every few weeks ... that's just changed to 3 weeks.
19:18:03 <rbergeron> tdawson: thanks for the checkin, I am hopeful that you guys will et some good help and testing on this. :)
19:18:37 <rbergeron> tdawson: so once it's packaged in F18 - does that ean you'll update every 3 weeks, or are you just planning to have one version in for the duration of the release, or... ?
19:19:08 <tdawson> It depends on the package.  Some packages don't need much maintenance, some do.
19:19:20 <rbergeron> interesting
19:19:32 <rbergeron> i may poke poelcat about it :)
19:19:35 <rbergeron> err, poelstra
19:19:39 <tdawson> Our client has changed quite a bit.  Poor Gomix has a hard time keeping up sometimes.
19:19:46 <rbergeron> LOL
19:20:08 <rbergeron> okay. i shall moveth on! :)
19:20:10 <rbergeron> #topic OpenStack
19:20:17 <rbergeron> russellb: HI
19:20:59 <russellb> hi!
19:21:14 * russellb tries to think of a good update
19:21:18 <russellb> dprince: anything?
19:21:27 <russellb> or ayoung ?
19:21:40 <ayoung> hmmmm
19:21:42 <russellb> :)
19:22:10 <russellb> Essex in Fedora 17 is in good shape.  Most of our focus has shifted back upstream hacking on the next release
19:22:15 <ayoung> Problem is that I am so heads down in a specific thing for Keystone I don't have a decent overview of the Openstack issues right now
19:22:33 <russellb> Essex in Fedora 17 and EPEL6, that is
19:22:36 * rbergeron saw that mestery has been answering a few quantum questions
19:22:43 <rbergeron> (which is awesome)
19:22:45 <jgreguske> I seem to recall that EPEL work is done
19:23:03 <ayoung> Last couple packages for EPEL are noVNC which are up for review
19:23:11 <rbergeron> (i think that's what it was)
19:23:17 <jgreguske> ah ok
19:24:20 <russellb> so yeah, buildin' clouds, doin like we do
19:24:20 <rbergeron> okay then!
19:24:34 <rbergeron> Yeah, i figured you guys were pretty done at this point, but just checking in.
19:24:40 <russellb> yep!
19:24:42 <rbergeron> russellb: what ar eyou talking about at SELF?
19:24:42 <russellb> thanks
19:24:49 <russellb> rbergeron: OpenStack on Fedora 17 !
19:25:03 <rbergeron> since I think you had some other topic originally :)
19:25:10 <rbergeron> russellb: i assume you told jeremy and all that jazz
19:25:17 <russellb> a high level overview of OpenStack and then going through how to get started, a simple install on one box
19:25:23 <rbergeron> or "someone at SELF"
19:25:29 <russellb> yeah, SELF stuff is all up to date to reflect the new topic
19:25:59 <rbergeron> russellb: I am bringing a bunch of the cards i had at the openstack conference, I can save some for you to keep in the room if you want, or you can just point people at the fedora table to get hardcopy info if you think it's good enough :)
19:26:11 <rbergeron> in the room where you give your talk, more specifically
19:26:14 <russellb> sounds good
19:26:21 <russellb> i'll just point people to the Fedora table
19:26:46 <rbergeron> coolio, i'll make sure they know to have them out (and to save some for after your tlak in case, for some reason, they go like hotcakes)
19:26:52 <rbergeron> (they are pretty sexy cards, i will say)
19:27:05 <russellb> they have a cloud on them!
19:27:21 <rbergeron> they do!
19:27:32 <rbergeron> it's excellent.
19:27:51 <rbergeron> someday i will have cards for cloudstack and eucalyptus and opennebula too. Or maybe all on one.
19:28:02 <rbergeron> IT HINGES ON THEM GETTING IT DONE THOUGH, hint hint hint
19:28:07 * rbergeron clears her throat
19:28:20 <rbergeron> okay! moving onwards then
19:28:27 <rbergeron> #topic Images Things
19:28:37 <rbergeron> jgreguske: hey. anything of interest you wanted to bring up? :)
19:28:54 * rbergeron would like to continue the "other cloud image formats beyond ec2" discussion at some point and get it to conclusion
19:29:06 <jgreguske> rbergeron: Nothing new from me today. :) Just lurking to keep tabs on things
19:29:30 <jgreguske> I missed some of that conversation, do only meeting minutes have some background?
19:29:35 * maxamillion joins the ranks of lurkers ... just less on-time about it :(
19:29:47 <rbergeron> I think so, we may have discussed onlist about it as well.
19:30:11 <rbergeron> and I have done a craptastic job of consistently sending minutes to the list, but I tend to do a better job when people show up and we have good conversatoins :)
19:30:15 <jgreguske> I recally dgilmore aiming to deliver some compressed images for the sake of testing
19:30:22 <jgreguske> *recall
19:30:29 * rbergeron looks for a linky or mail
19:30:36 <rbergeron> yeah, I think that related.
19:30:52 <jgreguske> koji knows how to build images in other formats besides raw like qcow or vmx
19:31:12 <jgreguske> so if that becomes a request I don't see that being a problem
19:31:12 * tdawson points over at maxamillion and whispers.  "There's one of the ones who volunteered."
19:31:15 <rbergeron> yeah, I would think that would be useful. I think - then i wonder how many people are just building their own images anyway.
19:31:25 <rbergeron> maxamillion: ooh, you're going ot help with openshift? very nice. :)
19:31:38 <rbergeron> jgreguske: that are more customized or tailored to their specific cloudy needs
19:31:44 <jgreguske> sure
19:32:03 <rbergeron> jgreguske: I think it might be worth thinking over for F18 to maybe do some of those other formats as test runs, and aim for making them more permanent in F19.
19:32:19 <rbergeron> it's probably too late in F17 to think about it, but i'm not sure what dgilmore has planned.
19:32:33 <maxamillion> rbergeron: hi, yeah .. sorry .. I of course got a phone call *right* when you said soemthing
19:32:42 <jgreguske> I not either to be honest, that's why I'm here reconnecting a bit
19:32:56 <maxamillion> rbergeron: yes, I am very excited about getting OpenShift Origin into Fedora land :)
19:33:14 <rbergeron> jgreguske: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/cloud/2012-February/001229.html <-- that's the relevant thread.
19:33:14 <jgreguske> rbergeron: there are other efforts of interest to Koji these days that I can go into if you'd like (after max's update)
19:33:26 <jgreguske> image-building efforts
19:33:43 <rbergeron> jgreguske: I think that would be very interesting to hear about - want to just go into it?
19:33:49 <jgreguske> sure
19:34:21 <jgreguske> Today Koji uses appliance-tools which is backed by imgcreate from livecd-tools
19:34:25 <rbergeron> I think maxamillion is just expressing his interest which we are delighted to see :) - hopefully this time works out for him going forward, unless the OSO folks are meeting about this in their own meeting channel as well :)
19:34:30 * rbergeron nods
19:34:48 <rbergeron> #info today koji uses appliance-tools which is backed by imgcreate from livecd-tools
19:34:49 <jgreguske> this implementation is fraught with limitations and there really isn't an upstream for it
19:34:59 <jgreguske> appliance-tools I mean
19:35:18 <jgreguske> so there really isn't a future, therefore I'm looking into getting Koji off of it
19:35:27 <jgreguske> as an aside, boxgrinder uses the same backend
19:35:42 <jgreguske> First up is Oz, which is part of the Aeolus project
19:36:14 <jgreguske> Second up is image-creator, which is developed by the Anaconda fellows
19:36:22 <rbergeron> #info looking into moving koji off from depending on appliance-tools - could possibly use oz (part of aeolus), or image-creator
19:36:55 <jgreguske> both implementations fire up a little VM and do a complete automatied anaconda install within to produce the desired image
19:37:27 <rbergeron> i would expect there are some people who use this stuff "at home" to do things as well - are either of them easier from that perspective to get going / running / etc?
19:37:39 <rbergeron> (not to intrude on your decision-making process, but just curious)
19:37:40 <maxamillion> I'd like to toss out a follow up question as an aside from that .. should we look to moving the wiki docs on using boxgrinder to build images to something else sinse it uses imgcreate or possibly suggest/patch/$other a different back end to boxgrinder?
19:38:07 <jgreguske> I think BG should move too, but I leave it to that community to decide what is best
19:38:14 <rbergeron> well, i think that (a) we'd probably want to talk to the BG maintainer
19:38:20 <rbergeron> (b) there are a LOT of people who really really like boxgrinder
19:38:31 <rbergeron> and seeral of the other cloud projects use it for creating images
19:38:42 <jgreguske> right
19:38:44 <dgilmore> rbergeron: the plan for f18 is to use media-creator  same as we will use for livecds
19:38:49 <rbergeron> or participants in their communities use it (cloudstack and euca both have people using boxgrinder left and right)
19:39:53 <rbergeron> maxamillion: so I don't think we'd want to get rid of documentatoin telling people how to use boxgrinder to use images since it is largely dead-simple for people to use and understand
19:40:07 <rbergeron> that said - it might be worth working with marek and msavy to see about the suggesting a different backend
19:40:22 <jgreguske> right, I think BG is still relevant for those users
19:40:23 <maxamillion> rbergeron: sounds good, I personally like it .. it just sounded a little to me like the back end bits might need replacing
19:40:50 <jgreguske> dgilmore: have you looked at both Oz and media-creator?
19:40:59 <rbergeron> maxamillion: i am sure that they'd be happy to talk with you about if you are willing to help them out - I think marek's time has been a bit stretched since the jboss folks discovered that someone in jboss land actually knows how to package for fedora
19:41:17 <dgilmore> jgreguske: no i have not but we have no other option for livecds  so i plan to use the same thing for both
19:41:25 <rbergeron> as7 was kind of an enormous undertaking and he's a total rock star but... :)
19:41:26 <jgreguske> dgilmore: fair point
19:41:29 * dgilmore is on PTO today
19:41:33 <rbergeron> enotime and all
19:41:58 <rbergeron> jgreguske: anyway, i don't know if either of those are easier, etc.
19:41:59 <maxamillion> rbergeron: oh yeah, if he's the one doing the as7 packaging in Fedora space then he's immediately made his way on to my wall of heros
19:42:14 <rbergeron> i seem to recall something about oz being more geared towards bare metal and whatnot but i could be wrong
19:42:22 <jgreguske> rbergeron: well dgilmore brings up a good point, media-creator can do livecds and Oz cannot
19:42:29 <rbergeron> maxamillion: yes. and if you haven't tried it out you should :)
19:42:35 <rbergeron> jgreguske: ah
19:42:35 <maxamillion> rbergeron: I've been really busy ramping up since I joined the openshift team just a short while ago but I will certainly put that on my todo list because I'd be happy to help if I'm able
19:42:40 <jgreguske> rbergeron: and from a development/integration perspective it be easier to choose m-c
19:43:07 <rbergeron> maxamillion: man, i am a moron - i keep forgetting you're like, part of the hat now :)
19:43:08 <jgreguske> so that's the general state of image creation these days
19:43:42 <rbergeron> jgreguske: so is this something you'll be looking at over F18, and then we might move to in F19 (a fixified version of koji)?
19:44:18 <rbergeron> maxamillion: i feel so silly now, heh
19:44:21 <maxamillion> rbergeron: you, our fearless leader, are the farthest thing from a moron ... and *I* am still grasping the concept that I'm actually a Hatter .... still expecting to get pinched and wake up ;)
19:44:40 <jgreguske> rbergeron: something like that, yes
19:44:43 <rbergeron> okay
19:44:50 <rbergeron> cool, well, thanks for the update :)
19:44:55 <jgreguske> certainly
19:44:56 <dgilmore> rbergeron: well i plan to be using media-creator for f18
19:45:15 <dgilmore> rbergeron: hopefully inside of koji still, depends if we get the support written or not
19:45:21 <rbergeron> dgilmore: okay, i just didn't know if the koji stuff he was talking about fixing was within F18 time frame or not
19:45:52 <jgreguske> it depends on when media-creator is ready too
19:45:56 <dgilmore> rbergeron: i hope we get the koji support done, I plan to move all the releng tasks into koji
19:46:02 <dgilmore> jgreguske: its ready now
19:46:07 <dgilmore> jgreguske: its in F17
19:46:37 <rbergeron> okay. thanks for the updates, both of you :)
19:46:44 * rbergeron needs to move on to last thing, which is
19:47:05 <rbergeron> #topic Get Fedora Clouds page
19:47:10 <rbergeron> #link http://stg.fedoraproject.org/get-fedora-options#clouds
19:47:22 <rbergeron> So: we need some content on here (this is in staging, not live, before anyone panics)
19:47:46 <rbergeron> and aside from some grammar stuff - we need to have some content on here, and i wanted to see if anyone had any thoughts.
19:48:14 <rbergeron> I'm mostly panning to put the list of AMI IDs here, and maybe some info like, "wtf is this" explanation and where to use these silly amis
19:48:21 <rbergeron> but I am happy to take any other suggestions as well.
19:48:42 <rbergeron> dgilmore: we talked a bit earlier about the different consumption methods - i couldn't remember if we decided on doing some sort of compressed image thing for F17, or not.
19:49:45 <dgilmore> rbergeron: i wanted to.  but ive had to not install any bootloader into the EC2 images to get them to work in EC2
19:50:15 <dgilmore> rbergeron: id need to spin up some consumable appliances with a bootloader installed, set to use firtsboot.
19:50:20 <dgilmore> rbergeron: if its wanted ill do it
19:50:25 <dgilmore> but today its not done
19:50:50 <rbergeron> dgilmore: maybe ask on the list. I honestly (and embarassingly) can barely grok what you just said so :)
19:50:57 <rbergeron> I don't think it needs to be a priority fo rrelease day
19:51:21 <rbergeron> but I think people might be interested, there was plenty of interest before in the thread from a while back
19:51:23 <dgilmore> rbergeron: the images made for EC2 will only work with pv-grub
19:51:51 <dgilmore> if you want to use something in a private cloud or local machine that needs a bootloader what we have will not work
19:52:53 <rbergeron> okay. I will take your word for it :)
19:53:01 <rbergeron> I would expect that there is probably a good use case for using stuff in a private cloud
19:53:13 <rbergeron> esp. since we have all this stuff in fedora now that is... for private clouds
19:53:19 <rbergeron> or building public clouds
19:53:27 <rbergeron> that are not amazon
19:54:00 <rbergeron> dgilmore: let me think on it, i may write the mail to the list
19:54:14 <rbergeron> anyway: the cloud page needs content - does anyone else have any feedback?
19:54:25 <rbergeron> otherwise I am going to write some stuff and slap it up for feedback
19:54:54 <rbergeron> dgilmore: is there any way to automate the AMI ID - get it and paste it process?
19:55:18 <rbergeron> I was just urious if they sent a mail or message saying "here's your AMIs" or if it went into a file and we could somehow merge it onto a webpage or wiki page
19:55:21 <rbergeron> rather than manually typing
19:55:57 <rbergeron> dgilmore: i'm mostly thinking about the "once you have the AMI and you send it to the list or post it to the wiki, and then I make a patch or get stickster to make a patch, and then get websites to merge it"
19:56:01 <rbergeron> ... might be easier than that
19:57:12 <rbergeron> anyway. :)
19:57:23 <rbergeron> if nobody else has anything, I have a meeting in 3 minutes.
19:57:26 <rbergeron> hooooooray meetings!
19:57:29 <rbergeron> hooray beer!
19:58:30 <dgilmore> rbergeron: sure
19:58:58 <rbergeron> dgilmore: sure... yes there is a way?
19:59:01 <dgilmore> rbergeron: there is not really a good way to get all the AMIs
19:59:13 <dgilmore> rbergeron: sure ill let you know asap i have the AMI's
19:59:15 <rbergeron> do you just have to manually copypasta the info as they get created?
19:59:20 <dgilmore> rbergeron: i do
19:59:24 <rbergeron> dgilmore: thanks, that will be GEFN :)
19:59:30 <rbergeron> dgilmore: that sucks ass. :(
19:59:45 <dgilmore> rbergeron: EC2 could be nicer
19:59:51 <dgilmore> and easier to use
19:59:57 <rbergeron> dgilmore: i blame max entirely
20:00:06 * rbergeron kids, me kids!
20:00:12 <rbergeron> err, yeah. i screwed that up
20:00:13 <rbergeron> anyway:
20:00:15 <rbergeron> I am off.
20:00:27 <tdawson> Bye
20:00:38 * dgilmore goes back to PTO
20:00:39 <maxamillion> laters
20:01:54 <rbergeron> thanks guys :)
20:01:56 <rbergeron> #endmeeting