15:03:17 <jreznik> #startmeeting kde-sig -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2012-03-20
15:03:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Mar 20 15:03:17 2012 UTC.  The chair is jreznik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:03:25 <jreznik> #meetingname kde-sig
15:03:25 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
15:03:34 <jreznik> #topic Roll Call
15:03:39 <jreznik> hi, who's here?
15:04:28 * ltinkl is here
15:04:51 * rnovacek is here
15:05:08 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
15:05:26 * than is here
15:06:05 <jreznik> #info jreznik ltinkl rnovacek Kevin_Kofler than present, rdieter_laptop regards
15:06:15 <jreznik> #chair jreznik ltinkl rnovacek Kevin_Kofler than
15:06:15 <zodbot> Current chairs: Kevin_Kofler jreznik ltinkl rnovacek than
15:06:21 <jreznik> #topic Agenda
15:07:04 <jreznik> one idea - KDE Plasma Workspaces Test Day (after talking with Fedora QA guys)
15:07:58 <Kevin_Kofler> Uhm, are we prepared to fix the issues found? Otherwise it'd just be a waste of everyone's time. :-/
15:08:46 <Kevin_Kofler> Of course, we can forward the bugs upstream, but upstream has their own test days already…
15:08:50 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: now agenda ...
15:09:00 <jreznik> do we have anything else
15:09:09 <than> yes, i agree with kevin, there're a lot of bugs which still need to be fixed
15:09:44 <jreznik> so anything else for agenda?
15:10:16 <Kevin_Kofler> jreznik: KDE SIG support for the "KDE Plasma Desktop by default" feature, so I can repropose it for F18 without summarily getting rejected?
15:11:05 <than> jreznik:  add livecd oversized bug
15:11:30 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: with that we are back to the issue you brought for test day - we are not able to support it/fix all bugs properly (not saying other desktop team is doing it...) :)
15:11:57 <Kevin_Kofler> (The feature can only get to a serious discussion if it has KDE SIG's stamp on it.)
15:12:06 <than> we should discuss what components we can remove it from livecd
15:12:18 <Kevin_Kofler> than: The bug is already addressed.
15:12:31 <jreznik> Qt 5...
15:12:33 <Kevin_Kofler> We were only barely over the maximum and webkitgtk3 will be gone.
15:12:58 <Kevin_Kofler> (zenity has been rebuilt without webkitgtk3 support, as it has always been.)
15:13:07 <jreznik> it was planned to be relased yesterday but I expect alpha is going to be out soon - so good time to start planning it
15:13:24 <than> Kevin_Kofler:  drop webkitgtk3 will fix this issue?
15:13:41 <Kevin_Kofler> Yes.
15:13:42 <Kevin_Kofler> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/zenity-3.2.0-4.fc17
15:14:06 <Kevin_Kofler> With webkitgtk3 gone, we'll have a reserve of ~5 MiB again, for further bloat.
15:14:07 <than> Kevin_Kofler: ah ok
15:14:10 <jreznik> #topic oversized live CD
15:14:35 <jreznik> #info the bug was fixed by proper rebuild of zenity without webkitgtk3
15:14:58 <jreznik> #info there's approx. 5 MiB reserve now
15:15:30 <Kevin_Kofler> If we run out of space again nevertheless for Final, I already have a list of stuff I can get rid of, which I think we already agreed on: krusader, gnome-disk-utility, stix-fonts, amarok, in that order.
15:16:06 <than> Kevin_Kofler: isn't it better to ship kdialog instead zenity?
15:16:18 <Kevin_Kofler> than: zenity is a dependency of Anaconda. :-(
15:16:37 <Kevin_Kofler> But zenity itself is quite small, it was the webkitgtk3 dependency which was the problem.
15:16:53 <Kevin_Kofler> (And we do ship kdialog, but it's not a drop-in replacement.)
15:17:06 <jreznik> #info the list of possible packages for removal (in order): krusader, gnome-disk-utility, stix-fonts, amarok
15:17:40 <than> i'm fine for removing these packages
15:17:42 <ltinkl> just a Q, do we ship k3b on livecd?
15:17:57 <Kevin_Kofler> #info We'll know the exact remaining space when zenity-3.2.0-4.fc17 (FEDORA-2012-4236) goes stable.
15:18:08 <than> ltinkl: as iknow k3b is still on livecd
15:18:20 <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl: Yes, k3b is on the CD.
15:18:34 <ltinkl> because, you know, burning CDs when the liveCD is in the drive doesn't make much sense :D
15:18:35 <Kevin_Kofler> It's not very useful on the live CD itself, but the live CD is also the default installation, so…
15:18:48 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: yup
15:19:03 <Kevin_Kofler> Oh, and you can have both a reader and a burner. :-)
15:19:04 <jreznik> and nobody is using livecd on livecd these days...
15:19:12 <rnovacek> and you can put livecd image to flash drive
15:19:23 <Kevin_Kofler> (My computer has that, but both are on the same IDE channel, so burning from a live CD won't work that great here either…)
15:19:24 <jreznik> on cd, not livecd :D
15:19:43 <jreznik> krusader is not the must app, same for g-d-u
15:20:01 <jreznik> but we have a reserve now - so...
15:20:08 <Kevin_Kofler> That's why they're on the list of stuff to axe if we run out of space.
15:20:13 <Kevin_Kofler> :-)
15:20:26 <than> it's better to have more reserver
15:20:48 <jreznik> than: don't think so... we can easily remove it in case we will need it
15:20:50 <Kevin_Kofler> than: I watch the sizes regularly.
15:21:18 <jreznik> it's easier to track what to remove in the need than tracking what to add back if the size is ok
15:21:38 <Kevin_Kofler> Oversized live CDs are a release blocker, so they won't release with the too large size, and removing stuff from the kickstart can be done even during freezes (they compose from the latest branch head in spin-kickstarts git).
15:21:59 <jreznik> yep
15:22:03 <Kevin_Kofler> I really don't want to remove stuff that fits!
15:22:37 <Kevin_Kofler> And I don't want to keep reserves just to have bloat creep in under us (like that unnecessary webkitgtk3 dependency).
15:23:24 <than> Kevin_Kofler: agreed :)
15:24:11 <jreznik> next topic
15:24:30 <jreznik> #topic KDE Plasma Workspaces Test Day
15:25:07 <jreznik> the idea is about intergration test day
15:25:13 <jreznik> not the features
15:25:15 <Kevin_Kofler> So as I said, my main worry there is that we already have more bugs than we can handle. :-(
15:25:44 <jreznik> so if we carefully prepare it - like we need to test Kevin_Kofler's systemd integration, kwin desktop effects on default etc.
15:26:01 <jreznik> thinks we need to be tested and we can fix - decide to disable effects etc.
15:26:37 <jreznik> #info the idea is to have an intergration test day, not upstream features - as systemd integration etc.
15:26:45 <Kevin_Kofler> For the systemd stuff, shutdown/restart is now working, but user switching still needs testing and probably fixing.
15:27:13 <jreznik> of course if someone reports some other bug - we can at least help with upstreaming it
15:27:14 <Kevin_Kofler> (The tests rdieter did so far didn't work, though I'm not sure he tested user switching on the latest patch iteration.)
15:27:14 <than> Kevin_Kofler: it seems it doesn't work in gdm too
15:27:35 <Kevin_Kofler> Yes, there's a complaint about that, and that's why we gave up on testing it. :-/
15:27:48 <than> user switching works fine in kdm
15:27:53 <jreznik> yeah and these are integration issues - something we have to deal with...
15:27:53 <Kevin_Kofler> We can't test it if it's broken on the systemd side.
15:28:14 <than> Kevin_Kofler: perhaps disable it by using gdm?
15:28:25 <Kevin_Kofler> But I wouldn't be surprised if there were some bug in the code on the Plasma side.
15:28:57 <Kevin_Kofler> After all, I only tested that it compiles. As I said, we can't test more if the systemd side is broken. :-/
15:29:29 <than> i tested it in kde/kdm, restart/shuttdown/user switching works fine
15:30:10 <Kevin_Kofler> (Note that "it compiles" is a fairly weak test because this is D-Bus with dynamic binding, i.e. no compile-time checking of function prototypes or property types.)
15:30:21 <Kevin_Kofler> than: I didn't touch the KDM code.
15:30:37 <Kevin_Kofler> When KDM is used, we still use KDM's interfaces.
15:30:50 <Kevin_Kofler> My patch only uses the systemd interfaces when it has to.
15:31:32 <jreznik> than: the idea behind is the integration with gdm, as Kevin_Kofler said, should work with KDM
15:32:38 <jreznik> but back to the topic - do you think we have enough Fedora side stuff to be tested on Test Day? any ideas? I really don't want to the "upstream like" Test Day
15:32:56 <Kevin_Kofler> About desktop effects, it's true that it could use more testing. Right now the only complaint I was aware of was about OpenGL effects on llvmpipe, and we disabled those again, it just doesn't work.
15:33:27 <Kevin_Kofler> (AIUI, we do get XRender effects on software rendering, those work fine (even with software XRender).)
15:34:37 <jreznik> I try to think about the content of the Test Day and I'll talk to kparal what he thinks it could be usefull for us
15:35:35 <Kevin_Kofler> Otherwise, it seems they're working fine, or at least the automatic fallback does.
15:35:51 <Kevin_Kofler> No complaints coming in.
15:36:16 <Kevin_Kofler> But of course a test day might bring up some.
15:36:56 <jreznik> ok, so let's think about it - if anything else makes sense to be tested and if we write the test cases correctly, it could be useful
15:37:25 <jreznik> at least again - we will be more visible inside the project to help us being the default desktop :)
15:39:02 <Kevin_Kofler> Yes, but I hope we'll be able to deal with the bugs.
15:39:30 <Kevin_Kofler> If we get a flood of bugs as for those graphics driver test days, I'm not sure we'll be able to fix them in a timely manner. :-(
15:40:00 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: at least we can try...
15:40:29 <jreznik> #action to think about integration test cases for Test Day (desktop effects, systemd integration etc.)
15:40:29 <than> jreznik: we still have a lot of bugs which need to bf fixed
15:40:51 <than> it does make sense to take time to look at these!
15:41:22 <jreznik> than: but integration testing is something fedora kde is about - and we can't fix integration bugs without knowing them...
15:41:35 <Kevin_Kofler> I do think a Fixing Day is probably more needed than a Test Day. ;-)
15:41:49 <than> Kevin_Kofler: +1 :)
15:41:55 <Kevin_Kofler> The problem is that it's much harder to recruit people to help fixing things than to help testing things. :-(
15:42:20 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: sometimes it's not easy to find people for testing day neither...
15:45:06 <jreznik> #topic KDE Plasma Workspaces as a default spin (KDE SIG stamp)
15:46:02 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: go on
15:46:09 <Kevin_Kofler> So, are we willing to pick up the fight now or are we still too cowardish? ;-)
15:46:58 <jreznik> not saying cowardish - but do we have support from other teams? docs? qa? design? we first have to involve them first...
15:47:00 <Kevin_Kofler> I'd like to refile https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/KDE_Plasma_Desktop_by_default for Fedora 18, this time with KDE SIG (as a whole) listed as the owner.
15:47:32 <Kevin_Kofler> (When I filed it for F16, it got rejected with basically no discussion by FESCo, with the reason that it's lacking support from KDE SIG.)
15:48:16 * jreznik is trying to get support from docs guys (talked about the KDE docs yesterday/today), also qa guys
15:48:25 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: there should imho be more pro-arguments
15:48:44 <jreznik> I have to say - I'm more fan of equal spins over "one rule them all"
15:48:56 <jreznik> get the spins again visible on download page etc.
15:49:00 <Kevin_Kofler> ltinkl: Do you have some? :-)
15:49:22 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: I know it's hard to get user stats, mainly from other distros/worldwide
15:49:33 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO, "nobody actually wants to use GNOME 3" is the most important argument. :-)
15:49:39 <ltinkl> Kevin_Kofler: but at least some journal prizes/awards could be a good starting point
15:50:02 <ltinkl> plus what jreznik said, we need to get support from other teams as well
15:50:17 <jreznik> hey, it's not about users, what they want or not - it's do we have enough resources to take care about it? if we are scared of one Test Day?
15:50:32 <ltinkl> other spins might also be interested in de-gnomifying the Fedora brand
15:50:38 <jreznik> and if we will be default, the Test Day will be everyday :)
15:50:44 <Kevin_Kofler> There's that recent poll where userbases came out at approx. ⅓ KDE, ¼ Xfce, ⅕ GNOME 3…
15:51:07 <jreznik> ltinkl: yeah, it's more about equal opportunities - I actually don't like having that mega hyper default
15:51:30 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: I saw a completely different - yoy know surveys :)
15:52:24 <ltinkl> exactly, each survey will be different and there's no accurate way of measuring that anyway
15:52:36 <drago01> Kevin_Kofler: don't want to start a flamewar here (so I leave it at that) but ""nobody actually wants to use GNOME 3" --- that's just wrong ... so use real arguments instead of strawmans like this one
15:53:14 <jreznik> drago01: yep, I know two G-S users :) let's get back to arguments
15:53:33 <Kevin_Kofler> drago01: OK, there are SOME people who want to use GNOME 3. There are also some people who want to use TWM, yet we don't make it the default. ^^
15:53:50 <drago01> *shrug*
15:54:13 <Kevin_Kofler> Most people clearly DON'T want GNOME 3.
15:54:23 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: as I said - I'd like to try to work on better visibility for spins, to make equal opportunities - it's better for the whole project than argue which one is better/used by more people
15:55:33 <jreznik> so let's try to get more involvement from other teams, to help us achieve this
15:55:43 <jreznik> that's at least step #1
15:55:55 <Kevin_Kofler> http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/2011-linuxquestions-org-members-choice-awards-95/desktop-environment-of-the-year-919888/
15:56:41 <Kevin_Kofler> Going by that poll, KDE should be the default spin, Xfce the mirrored alternative, and GNOME moved to spins.fedoraproject.org.
15:57:39 <jreznik> :)
15:58:57 <Kevin_Kofler> GNOME 3 is an experimental nonstandard user interface and thus spins.fp.o is the perfect place for it.
15:59:00 <Kevin_Kofler> It's a horrible default.
15:59:10 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: actually I'm tempted to give you +1 to go on with the feature but first we need broader support
15:59:53 <jreznik> and we have opportunity to be #1 and default mobile devices spin with PA :)
16:00:09 <Kevin_Kofler> It's sad if we cannot get an agreement on pushing for KDE Plasma as default even in the KDE SIG :-(
16:00:31 <ltinkl> did we vote on that yet? :)
16:00:59 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: actually I'm +1 but feature page is last thing we have to do...
16:01:14 <ltinkl> my proposal is to gather more arguments and get support from other teams and then decide whether to push for default or "equal" opportunity
16:01:15 <jreznik> we are running out of time... (or better we ran out of time)
16:01:28 <jreznik> ltinkl: +1
16:01:42 <rnovacek> ltinkl: +1
16:01:58 <Kevin_Kofler> I wonder if we have current stats from Fedora users.
16:02:15 <Kevin_Kofler> There used to be published torrent stats for the live images, which gave an idea of the popularity of the various spins.
16:02:33 <Kevin_Kofler> (Of course, that doesn't capture DVD installs, netinstalls, installs from one spin converted to another desktop etc.)
16:02:39 <Kevin_Kofler> (nor HTTP downloads)
16:03:34 <jreznik> torrents will die soon...
16:03:43 <jreznik> let's go to #fedora-kde
16:03:46 <jreznik> thanks guys
16:03:50 <jreznik> #endmeeting