22:20:25 <herlo> #startmeeting "FAmSCo Weekly Meeting"
22:20:25 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Feb  8 22:20:25 2012 UTC.  The chair is herlo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:20:25 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:20:35 <herlo> #chair yn1v igorps kaio
22:20:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: herlo igorps kaio yn1v
22:20:42 <herlo> anyone else need chair?
22:20:48 <zoltanh7211> .fas zoltanh721
22:20:49 <zodbot> zoltanh7211: zoltanh721 'Hoppár Zoltán' <hopparz@gmail.com>
22:20:51 * herlo lets someone else run with it
22:20:54 <herlo> ahh, k
22:20:57 <herlo> #chair zodbot
22:20:57 <zodbot> Current chairs: herlo igorps kaio yn1v zodbot
22:20:59 <herlo> lol
22:21:03 <herlo> #chair zoltanh7211
22:21:03 <zodbot> Current chairs: herlo igorps kaio yn1v zodbot zoltanh7211
22:21:06 <yn1v> #link https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
22:21:53 <herlo> yn1v: you can do .famsco ###
22:21:58 <herlo> and we can click the issues
22:22:24 <yn1v> I was looking to see if we can tackle any easy one first
22:22:55 <yn1v> but probably we should better take them in order.
22:23:02 <yn1v> .famsco 250
22:23:02 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/250
22:23:28 <yn1v> how to improve swag shipping.
22:23:34 <yn1v> Any new ideas ?
22:24:09 <zoltanh7211> I still keep my opinion of we should send together the media and the swag
22:24:34 <zoltanh7211> I have also discussed this with spot
22:25:09 <igorps> It's a good suggestion, but sometimes the swag wrangler is not the media wrangler
22:25:10 <zoltanh7211> and I would like to add that there is such swag that doesn't need translation, and could be produced massively
22:25:36 <zoltanh7211> and even cheaply
22:25:42 <herlo> zoltanh7211: we do an 'ambassador kit' when we ship
22:25:55 <yn1v> balloons and shiny case badges
22:25:55 <herlo> it contains about 10 shirts, media, stickers, pens and whatever else we have on hand
22:26:25 * herlo argues that this is something that each region should sort out, not so much a FAMSCo issue. I think I argued this before too
22:26:44 <yn1v> I agree with herlo
22:26:46 <herlo> argue as in 'contend' not as in 'yell loudly'
22:26:58 <igorps> herlo, +1. That may vary from region to region.
22:27:22 <yn1v> what about if we set a special meeting, one time only to get together people having problem with people having expertise ?
22:28:11 <herlo> yn1v: would that be a regional or FAMSco type meeting?
22:28:56 <yn1v> let's say ... meeting with swag people from EMEA with LATAM... so LATAM can get ideas to improve
22:29:17 <herlo> ahh
22:29:19 <yn1v> not famsco, just swag/media wranglers
22:29:20 <tatica> !
22:29:25 <herlo> well, that could be good
22:29:33 <yn1v> go ahead tatica
22:29:33 <herlo> timezones could be problematic
22:29:36 <igorps> Maybe we could invite them to this meeting
22:29:54 <tatica> maybe just take the question made through mail about have a list of local places to buy swags and organize a kit based on that info can be a final solution (even if might take some months to be done completely)
22:30:06 <tatica> but if you're thinking on solutions, think on the bigger picture, not the local issue
22:30:07 <tatica> eof
22:30:25 <yn1v> tatica, thanks. that may algo help
22:30:42 <herlo> tatica: when you say it's not a 'local' issue, can you clarify what you mean?
22:30:58 <tatica> sure
22:31:16 <tatica> Each region has different prices, but same local product that are a base on what a Marketin-kit or swags are
22:31:31 <tatica> shipping is for some regions the bigges issue, for some there are other problems
22:31:58 <tatica> same way we have people in charge of people-admin-infra tasks, won't be a bad idea to have some regional people that can hand swags for events
22:32:02 <tatica> not *who gets it*
22:32:08 <tatica> or who gets reimbursed
22:32:36 <tatica> more like *have a neutral place (or several)* where some Fedora specific items can be done, ship and GET to the place in time and not-overpriced
22:32:40 <tatica> eof again
22:32:43 <herlo> tatica: sure, we previously discussed setting 'standards' for swag, like color and such for a shirt.
22:32:54 <igorps> tatica, that wouldn't be the current swag wranglers?
22:33:15 <herlo> however, I think the shipping and delivery is definitely something handled in each region. SWAG wranglers like igorps suggests isn't a bad idea
22:33:53 <tatica> could be, but needs to have more exposure
22:34:02 <tatica> since not everyone and not every event is getting swags
22:34:12 <tatica> either money issues, shipping, time or general knowledge
22:34:14 <yn1v> I propose to hit mailing list with a humble request for media/swag wrangler to set meetings on their own to share expertise and then see what new things happens
22:34:29 <nb> In NA, we have about 4 or 5 people who each maintain a supply of swag in each area of the country (and one in canada)
22:34:38 <herlo> maybe a set of swag wranglers in each region, who approach FAMSCo when issues happen?
22:34:42 <tatica> !
22:34:52 <nb> and hten people ship to people in their area when requests come in in the famnarequests trac
22:35:10 * herlo started the program which nb is referring along with a few others in NA
22:35:16 <kaio> In some regions (like here) postages are overpriced, I cannot be an wrangler. However, in some countries reimbursement is an issue.
22:35:21 <herlo> tatica: please, go ahead :)
22:35:38 <tatica> nop... I don't see it like *ask people to be in charge*, is more to develop a team where if people come or go, info won't be lost - Rather to do a general DB with business info and start from there.
22:35:40 <tatica> eof
22:35:53 * nb wishes there was a good solution for shipping in EMEA similar to how we have our UPS accounti n NA so that it automatically gets charged to the community CC
22:36:05 <igorps> what would help a lot is if we could use FUDCons and FADs distribute swag in and between regions
22:36:10 <herlo> tatica: so a wrangler or two from each region?
22:36:20 <herlo> igorps: we do in NA, for sure.
22:36:29 <igorps> that would save a lot of shipping efforts
22:36:51 <tatica> herlo, as much as needed, but wrangler can delegate if is needed
22:36:55 <yn1v> I feel the need for something that is actionable and the move to the next topic
22:36:55 <igorps> herlo, that's an excellent idea for other regions
22:37:03 <nb> and some things like media, we had the company directly ship to each regional shipping person
22:37:29 <herlo> igorps: but not for your region?
22:37:35 * herlo notes we are at 15 minutes on this topic
22:37:56 <igorps> herlo, I meant for NA and all the others
22:38:06 <igorps> including LATAM
22:38:09 <herlo> oh, okay
22:38:38 <yn1v> I propose to hit mailing list with a humble request for media/swag wrangler to set meetings on their own to share expertise and then see what new things happens ... probably create a wiki to get all ideas on one place
22:39:09 <igorps> yn1v, it looks like that CCing people on Track wasn't enough to get feedback from them
22:39:10 * tatica could write something for next week, not this one
22:39:32 <herlo> #idea further discuss swag wrangler concept on ambassador list
22:39:44 <igorps> yn1v, I'm not sure if they are able to see the ticket or if they get the idea
22:39:44 <yn1v> I not sure if all wranglers are in trac CC
22:40:19 <yn1v> igorps, that's why I suggest wiki
22:40:42 <igorps> yn1v, I think we'll need to contact them directly by mail and ask to post feedback on Track
22:40:43 <herlo> I think a comment period would be better
22:40:58 <herlo> for all ambassadors to discuss on the mailing list
22:41:18 <herlo> but that's just me
22:41:40 <yn1v> probably will be enough
22:41:42 <herlo> we have a specific idea, and constructs for completing the idea, so it could be something that someone else could provide useful feedback
22:42:01 <igorps> works for me!
22:42:36 <igorps> we can do both, keep the discussion on Track and start it on the mailing list
22:42:42 <herlo> #action send email to ambassadors mailing list for comment on 'swag wranger' concept
22:42:51 <herlo> #undo
22:42:51 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x2c9e5f10>
22:42:53 <tatica> there is already a thread started by Mel I think
22:42:57 <herlo> #action send email to ambassadors mailing list for comment on 'swag wrangler' concept
22:43:00 <tatica> pls, keep it simple and support that idea
22:43:21 <yn1v> shall we move to next topic?
22:43:29 <herlo> tatica: yes, but I do think we need to construct an email that is clear and concise with actual steps. I'm sure we'll be getting your input before we email the list
22:43:32 <herlo> yn1v: let's
22:43:38 <igorps> yn1v, yes
22:43:42 <tatica> ok, np
22:43:54 <yn1v> .famsco 251
22:43:54 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/251
22:44:05 <yn1v> #topic improve reimbursement
22:45:04 <yn1v> I think that we are more or less the same as the last ticket
22:45:17 <igorps> This is something that we need more general changes. Like having a better grasp of the spending during the fiscal year.
22:46:00 <herlo> igorps: there was a discussion with harish regarding the budget recently
22:46:08 <herlo> it's in the ticket
22:46:23 <yn1v> yes, having more documentation on our expending, so we can trac and compare
22:46:24 <herlo> this was also discussed last week
22:47:01 <herlo> discussed that the budget would be finalized this week
22:47:08 <igorps> herlo, I read the logs and it seems that Harish is working to update the expenses on the wiki
22:47:11 <herlo> but I didn't hear whether it was, or if we got a copy
22:47:20 <herlo> igorps: okay
22:47:33 <herlo> so maybe we should ask him if it's accurate now?
22:48:06 <igorps> we might need to wait for the announcement of the budget for next fiscal year
22:48:15 <yn1v> Yes, he was trying to make sense of things and share his findings, but we need to try to look forward ... how we want to operate in the future to avoid this
22:48:16 <igorps> this fiscal year is almost over
22:48:49 <igorps> there isn't much we can do about it now
22:49:03 <igorps> we need to try to fix things for the next one
22:49:05 <yn1v> this , is not having details to make sense of the expending
22:49:06 <herlo> #action ask harish if budget for 2013 FY is ready
22:49:21 <herlo> does that sound right?
22:49:24 <yn1v> yes
22:49:28 <igorps> herlo, +1
22:49:34 <herlo> k, I think we have a good resolution on this one for now
22:49:47 <herlo> s/resolution/direction/
22:49:57 <herlo> yn1v: next?
22:50:09 <igorps> let's keep revisiting this one
22:50:14 <herlo> aye
22:50:15 <yn1v> .famsco 252
22:50:19 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/252
22:50:34 <herlo> #action revisit .famsco 251 next week
22:50:41 <yn1v> not sure if we skip talking about google+ page  by now
22:50:43 <zoltanh7211> +1
22:50:52 <yn1v> as the last item was to revisit later
22:51:03 <herlo> I think we already resolved that one
22:51:06 <herlo> I got an invite
22:51:08 <yn1v> not sure if there is anything to said on this now
22:51:26 <igorps> I was added as one of the administrators
22:51:38 <igorps> it seems that everything is ok now
22:51:39 <herlo> yes, let's wait to see if there are any issues on it, maybe close it next week if we don't hear any issues?
22:51:48 <yn1v> +1
22:51:52 <igorps> herlo, +1
22:51:57 <herlo> #action close .famsco 252 if no new issues arise
22:52:04 <herlo> #undo
22:52:04 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x2c9d1050>
22:52:22 <herlo> #agreed close .famsco 252 if no new issues arise by 15 Feb 2012
22:52:36 <yn1v> .famsco 255
22:52:36 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/255
22:52:45 <yn1v> change in famsco election rules
22:52:53 <herlo> ugh, I failed on this one
22:53:00 <herlo> haven't had time to read the rules completely
22:53:13 <igorps> so did I
22:53:15 <yn1v> this has been championship by cwickert
22:53:22 <herlo> I would like to push back for another week to review it. And since cwickert isn't here...
22:53:35 * herlo votes to delay by 1wk
22:53:35 <zoltanh7211> +1
22:53:39 <yn1v> +1
22:53:50 <igorps> I'm not quite sure if he contacted Red Hat Legal either
22:54:01 <igorps> let's revisit this one next week
22:54:03 <herlo> #agreed delay discussion of .famsco 255 by one week
22:54:17 <yn1v> I explained my concerns with some examples, but there are minor issues.
22:54:28 <yn1v> so, I am happy to delay this one week
22:54:39 <yn1v> last item
22:54:51 <yn1v> .famsco .257
22:54:52 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/.257
22:54:55 <yn1v> .famsco 257
22:54:56 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/257
22:55:26 <yn1v> This is about replasing me as mentor
22:55:51 <igorps> I know Luis in person and he has been doing a nice job in LATAM
22:56:02 <herlo> .fasinfo lbazan
22:56:02 <zodbot> herlo: User: lbazan, Name: Luis Enrique Bazán De León, email: bazanluis20@gmail.com, Creation: 2011-04-19, IRC Nick: LoKoMurdoK, Timezone: America/Panama, Locale: es, GPG key ID: E7FF38FC, Status: active
22:56:06 <zodbot> herlo: Approved Groups: bzrpython-fedora docs-writers docs gitfas cvsl10n sysadmin-logs @fedora-pa sysadmin-noc bodhiadmin packager fedorabugs cla_fedora cla_done ambassadors cla_fpca sysadmin campusambassadors freemedia
22:56:15 <igorps> he's also chairing the LATAM meeting
22:56:25 <igorps> +1 to him
22:56:44 <herlo> per the recommendations from yn1v and igorps, I also +1 lbazan
22:56:56 <zoltanh7211> +1 let it be - seem to worthy for me too
22:57:00 <herlo> he's been around almost a year
22:57:14 <herlo> keep him excited and involved, good stuff
22:57:26 <yn1v> I have good communication with him, so I will be within his reach in case he want to consult about mentoring, I am not just pushing him in the deep side of the pool
22:57:27 * tatica would like that mentors choice would be made regionaly
22:57:34 <igorps> it's good to have a injection of new blood too
22:57:37 <nb> tatica, +1
22:57:51 <herlo> #agreed lbazan to become ambassador mentor
22:58:24 <yn1v> tatica, can you comment on how to make it regionaly ?
22:58:36 <herlo> #topic open floor
22:58:46 <tatica> votes, same we do to select famsco, and famsco will only provide recomendations
22:59:17 <tatica> for me... is a bit odd that famsco (with only 2 members per region aprox) makes a decition on the best ambassador from a region without consult the regional members
22:59:19 * nb suggests like tatica is saying. just have the regional meetings vote on who to amke mentors from that region
22:59:31 <tatica> not that is wrong, but I would rather to make this regional with famsco support
22:59:38 <herlo> tatica: nb: so those nominations are not arbitrary
22:59:48 <herlo> they come from *existing* mentors
22:59:53 <nb> true
22:59:54 <herlo> within the region
22:59:57 <tatica> nominations are ok
23:00:12 <tatica> selection is a bit focus on what a few members have to say about someone
23:00:16 <igorps> i'd rather do it the other way around, gathering recommendation from regional folks and then having the name ratified by famsco
23:00:19 <herlo> I'm not saying no or anything, I'm just saying that doing voting requires more work than a nomination and approval from famsco
23:00:36 <inode0> !
23:00:37 <tatica> nothing against anyone... but I think process has a lack of knowledge about the candidate itself
23:00:37 <herlo> igorps: I'd be happy with that, a comment period
23:00:49 <herlo> inode0: yes?
23:01:00 <yn1v> Having a vote requires having candidates
23:01:23 <inode0> I think this really works the other way around - the regional person who did the nominating made the choice - famsco is just a double check
23:01:47 <herlo> inode0: what do you think about having a comment period for say a week?
23:01:47 <inode0> so regional mentors choose the new regional mentors, not famsco
23:01:59 <herlo> let regional ambassadors comment on trac about the individual?
23:02:09 <tatica> inode0, not exclude, all choose a new mentor
23:02:20 <tatica> is not a you do it and I don't, more a team work between both sides
23:02:20 * inode0 is against it being a public spectacle with people for and against
23:02:32 <igorps> inode0, +1
23:02:42 <tatica> sadly... if you choose a person to represent ambassadors becomes a public person
23:03:35 <tatica> do not ask regional people just because we don't want controversy is avoid the fact that their oppinion matter
23:03:35 <inode0> all ambassadors are public people, but only a few are public spectacles :)
23:03:36 <igorps> I really think that the point of mentorship is not related to elections
23:03:58 <herlo> +1 igorps
23:04:03 * nb doesn't support elections
23:04:10 <kaio> ++
23:04:12 * nb would support allowing the regional meetings to vote on the mentors
23:04:35 * inode0 would strongly oppose regional voting
23:04:36 <herlo> nb: as just a recommendation, not a binding vote, correct?
23:04:40 <tatica> is not a yes/no, maybe you guys can explore ideas on this
23:04:53 * inode0 would strongly oppose regional public discussion
23:04:58 <nb> herlo, as a binding vote
23:05:00 <inode0> this turns mentoring into politics
23:05:15 <inode0> are we picking bad mentors now?
23:05:17 <herlo> inode0: it's politics either way, but I tend to agree with you
23:05:21 <nb> inode0, ? no
23:05:22 <inode0> if not what problem are we solving?
23:05:28 <nb> inode0, /me doesn't really see a problem
23:05:31 * nb was just commenting
23:05:37 * tatica didn't say you're doing a bad job... pls...
23:05:45 <herlo> tatica: I don't think that was the sentiment
23:05:59 <inode0> what is motivating changing the current process?
23:06:01 <tatica> ok, forget everything I said and just make a vote based on how much work you guys want to or not to do
23:06:04 * tatica eof
23:06:13 <yn1v> we are improving Famsco elections rules. Why we don't treat this as a proposal for improving mentor elections/ratification
23:06:16 <igorps> I want to use the nomination of Luis by Neville as a good example
23:06:35 <igorps> It works and I don't see a problem with it
23:06:45 <inode0> so do I, and the nomination by susmit as another good example
23:06:54 <tatica> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tatica/Ambassadors-Mentors
23:07:39 <tatica> well... have you ask your regional partners if they are happy wih the process?
23:08:02 <yn1v> Yes, I will suggest that any change on procedures should not affect LoKoMurdoK approval that was already agreed
23:08:15 <tatica> you guys are the voice, so -listen- what people has to say, or ask if people is too quiet
23:08:16 * herlo says it will not
23:08:34 <igorps> some will agreed and some will not as usual
23:08:36 <tatica> yn1v, completely
23:09:37 <tatica> is not about Luis, I know him and is a good ambassador
23:09:54 <tatica> so again, I ask you not to take this personally and just check this small issue
23:10:06 <herlo> I don't think the current process is broken. I also think that adding voting will make the process more difficult. Changing of the gard only ever 6 months is difficult, it should be more fluid.
23:10:17 <herlo> s/gard/guard/
23:10:23 <igorps> herlo, +1
23:10:38 <tatica> those are general thought. if none is important is ok :)
23:11:41 <yn1v> In general I like the idea of making guidelines for mentoring, this will easy the pressure about people asking how to be super-ambassadors
23:11:59 <herlo> tatica: I think we probably need a week to let this absorb. You've seen our points of view. Maybe there is something wrong with the procedure now, but I don't think we've seen that. Please feel free to modify it and re-present it if you like. I'd like to see if there's a reason to improve some of our process for mentoring and such.
23:12:15 <tatica> i will, thx
23:12:33 <herlo> anyone else want to add to what I said, or disagree?
23:12:42 <yn1v> +1
23:12:56 <herlo> I'd really like to see evidence of the failings if there are any, and would love to improve our mentoring processes for sure
23:13:50 <yn1v> I want to congratulate LoKoMurdoK !
23:14:03 <igorps> I don't want to see this turning into a counterproductive discussion, if there is a demand for change we'll know that
23:14:19 <igorps> yn1v, yep, congrats to LoKoMurdoK!
23:14:25 <herlo> yay!
23:15:01 <yn1v> LoKoMurdoK, has done a great job, so we give him more work as a prize !
23:15:01 <herlo> igorps: I concur with you, but there is no harm in reviewing a proposal. If we spend a few minutes reading through and can give good reasons for or against it, at least we had a look :)
23:15:08 <LoKoMurdoK> yn1v: tks
23:15:17 <herlo> yn1v: that's the way free software communities owrk :)
23:15:31 <LoKoMurdoK> I will do a good job
23:15:39 <igorps> herlo, sure, that's part of getting to know the problems that may be arising
23:16:10 <yn1v> #action to create a meeting ticket with mentoring process, including link for reviewing on next week
23:16:17 <herlo> yn1v: nice
23:16:20 <herlo> I was about to do that :)
23:16:45 <igorps> sounds perfect
23:17:20 <zoltanh7211> +1
23:18:24 <herlo> +1
23:18:39 <yn1v> herlo ... I already did :D
23:18:53 <herlo> I know
23:18:56 * herlo has to sign off now
23:19:06 <igorps> just got the mail
23:19:09 <yn1v> any other topic from any one?
23:19:17 <igorps> nothing else from me
23:19:22 <kaio> no thx
23:19:30 * kaio is going to bed
23:19:58 <herlo> awesome
23:20:00 <herlo> let's end
23:20:05 <herlo> 3
23:20:06 <herlo> 2
23:20:09 <herlo> 1
23:20:12 <herlo> #endmeeting