22:02:12 <cwickert> #startmeeting FAmSCo Meeting 2011-12-28
22:02:12 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Dec 28 22:02:12 2011 UTC.  The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:02:12 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
22:02:18 <cwickert> #meetingname FAmSCo Meeting 2011-12-28
22:02:18 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco_meeting_2011-12-28'
22:02:25 <cwickert> #topci Roll call
22:02:29 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
22:02:30 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
22:02:36 <cwickert> #topic Roll call
22:02:47 <igorps> .fas igorps
22:02:48 <zodbot> igorps: igor 'Igor Pires Soares' <igor@projetofedora.org>
22:03:17 <igorps> hello all, btw!
22:03:48 * cwickert thinks he has been sitting in front of his computer
22:03:51 <cwickert> zoltanh7211: ping
22:04:50 <igorps> who else is here for the meeting?
22:05:03 <cwickert> ping herlo
22:05:05 <cwickert> no there
22:05:12 <cwickert> /no/not
22:05:24 <cwickert> dammit, zoltanh7211 was here 10 minutes ago
22:06:00 <igorps> herlo said that he might miss the meeting
22:06:06 <cwickert> yn1v isn't here either
22:06:38 <cwickert> gbraad was here, too I think
22:06:45 <igorps> let's wait 5 min more, maybe they are just late
22:06:54 <cwickert> ok
22:10:07 * cwickert sent zoltanh7211 a text message, hope he shows up
22:13:03 <igorps> Hello, herlo
22:13:14 <herlo> hi all
22:13:19 <herlo> hello igorps
22:13:36 <cwickert> hi herlo
22:13:42 <cwickert> we still don't have quorum :(
22:13:47 <herlo> it is the holidays
22:14:12 <cwickert> but people were in this channel before the meeting
22:14:19 <herlo> aye...
22:14:37 <herlo> I'm in a lot of channels. Maybe ping them?
22:14:49 <cwickert> at lease kaio and zoltanh7211 were here
22:15:06 <cwickert> herlo: we pinged them and I even wrote zoltanh7211 a text message
22:15:06 <igorps> herlo, if can find them that would be nice
22:15:09 <herlo> that would give us a quorum. I honestly thought I wasn't going to make it...
22:16:00 <herlo> but I had a nasty crash on the slopes today, had to come home early and ice my leg
22:16:03 <herlo> :(
22:17:12 <herlo> .seen kaio
22:17:12 <zodbot> herlo: kaio was last seen in #fedora-meeting 6 days, 23 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds ago: * kaio dives into bed
22:17:27 <herlo> .seen zoltanh7211
22:17:27 <zodbot> herlo: zoltanh7211 was last seen in #fedora-meeting 42 minutes and 30 seconds ago: <zoltanh7211> thx cwickert
22:18:12 <cwickert> ok, lets have at least an informal meeting then
22:18:22 <cwickert> even if we cannot make decisions
22:18:30 <igorps> yep, better than no meeting
22:18:38 <herlo> aye, sounds good
22:18:39 <cwickert> igorps: I'd like to discuss the FAmSCo reports
22:18:53 <igorps> cwickert, let's go for it
22:18:54 <cwickert> how much time do you spend on them?
22:19:26 <igorps> cwickert, I took at least half a month on them
22:19:36 <igorps> I'd like to publish them earlier
22:20:00 <igorps> but for that we would need to make it more straightforward
22:20:10 <cwickert> I mean just the pure amount of work
22:20:20 <cwickert> to get the data and to get it into publican
22:20:25 <kaio> .fasinfo kaio
22:20:26 <zodbot> kaio: User: kaio, Name: Caius Chance (かいお), email: me@kaio.net, Creation: 2008-09-10, IRC Nick: kaio, Timezone: Australia/Brisbane, Locale: en, GPG key ID: 17BEFCFA, Status: active
22:20:30 <zodbot> kaio: Unapproved Groups: art
22:20:34 <zodbot> kaio: Approved Groups: cla_fedora cla_done fedorabugs hgflies packager cla_redhat ambassadors l10n-commits @packager-zh famsco cvsl10n freemedia
22:20:39 <igorps> Hello kaio
22:21:10 <igorps> cwickert, I don't know for sure, it depends on the number of meeting, events and so on
22:21:12 <kaio> igorps: hi
22:21:26 <cwickert> hi kaio!
22:21:38 <kaio> I was here just now and away fed my kittens.
22:21:39 <cwickert> we finally have a quorum, so lets get started
22:21:42 <igorps> but to get it into publican represents about 60% of the whole time to get it all done
22:21:51 <cwickert> #topic FAmSCo reports
22:22:08 <cwickert> ok, we were just discussing the FAmSCo reports
22:22:18 <cwickert> I wonder if it makes sense to spend so much time on them
22:22:22 * kaio caught up from log already
22:22:30 <cwickert> or if we could better spend the time on real work
22:22:40 <cwickert> this leaves us with two options:
22:22:43 <kaio> cwickert: agree that time on report should be at minimum
22:22:46 <kaio> ++
22:22:56 <cwickert> 1.) make is easier to publish them to spend less time
22:23:08 <cwickert> 2.) stop publishing them all together
22:23:24 <cwickert> in a perfect world we would need no reports
22:23:32 <cwickert> I don't know any other committee that does them
22:23:35 <kaio> so that is "do it efficiently"
22:23:39 <cwickert> but on the other hand they are helpful
22:24:14 <cwickert> I suggest we should first evaluate making them easier and in long term see if we can live without them
22:24:19 <cwickert> but this takes time
22:24:24 <igorps> I think that reports are good because they centralize information and currently all that information is really disperse on the wiki
22:24:35 <cwickert> +1
22:24:40 <igorps> so I would go with option 1
22:24:43 <kaio> how can we automate it?
22:24:53 <cwickert> but how about only publishing them on the wiki?
22:24:58 <kaio> I personally go with 1.
22:25:03 <igorps> cwickert, +1
22:25:04 <cwickert> I am not really familiar with publian
22:25:15 <cwickert> I guess it could be automated
22:25:17 <herlo> I think making a trac report should suffice, which is 1)
22:25:37 <cwickert> hmm, trac is worth investigating, too
22:25:45 <kaio> only on wiki and URL to fam list
22:25:48 <cwickert> speaking of trac, we have new features, there
22:26:26 <cwickert> #action cwickert to investigate the opportunity of making FAmSCo reports in trac
22:26:29 <igorps> publican is a really nice tool, but going through all the XML every month is counterproductive
22:26:50 <kaio> igorps: agree
22:26:56 <igorps> publishing it only on the wiki would speed things up for sure
22:26:59 <herlo> igorps: agreed
22:27:04 <cwickert> ok, any publican gurus we could ask for help? or should we just stop publican?
22:27:28 <herlo> I don't think that's the right direction (publican).
22:27:35 <kaio> Are there WYSIWYG publican editor?
22:27:51 <cwickert> none that I know of
22:28:03 <igorps> the only that might help is exporting the wiki content to a publican XML
22:28:10 <kaio> if no tool which is user friendly enough we have no choice but switch from publican
22:28:19 <igorps> but I don't know if that is posible
22:28:29 <cwickert> igorps: does mediawiki do this?
22:28:58 <igorps> cwickert, AFAIK it does not
22:29:40 <cwickert> igorps: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Converting_wiki_to_DocBook_XML
22:30:18 <cwickert> anyway, this is not urgent as the last report was just published
22:30:23 <kaio> is it necessary to have reports in docbook format?
22:30:32 <cwickert> kaio: publican is docbook
22:30:39 <cwickert> or a subset of docbook
22:30:59 <igorps> I can dig into that and look if it works for us
22:31:05 <kaio> cwickert: I sorta know, so s/docbook/publican/
22:31:06 <cwickert> proposal: continue with monthly FAmSCo reports
22:31:19 <cwickert> or better
22:31:22 <herlo> publican creates docbook iirc
22:31:40 <herlo> s/creates/uses/
22:31:42 <cwickert> proposal: continue with monthly FAmSCo reports and work on making it easier to publish them
22:32:02 <cwickert> agreed, yes/no?
22:32:11 <cwickert> just for the minutes
22:32:14 <igorps> cwickert, +1
22:32:14 <herlo> +1 to that. I'm still not sure they need to be on the wiki, but I am not going to fight that
22:32:17 <cwickert> +1
22:32:18 <herlo> +1
22:32:24 <kaio> ++
22:32:27 <herlo> lol
22:32:38 <cwickert> #agreed FAmSco continues with monthly FAmSCo reports and works on making it easier to publish them
22:33:01 <cwickert> #action igorps to look at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Converting_wiki_to_DocBook_XML
22:33:37 <cwickert> proposal: if we don't find a better way, we ditch publican and just publish the reports in the wiki
22:33:41 <cwickert> +1
22:33:44 <cwickert> :)
22:34:17 <igorps> +1, let's avoid redundancy
22:34:22 <herlo> so we're shooting from wiki to docbook?
22:34:22 <cwickert> #action cwickert to file a ticket about reports in trac and collect all info there
22:34:38 * herlo just wants to be clear here.
22:34:42 <cwickert> herlo: no, wiki as primary source
22:35:03 <herlo> k, so removing docbook/publican altogether unless it's automagic
22:35:09 <cwickert> right
22:35:15 <herlo> +1
22:35:15 <igorps> that's it
22:35:24 <cwickert> or at least with minimal effort
22:35:31 <herlo> right, works for me
22:35:44 <cwickert> #agreed: if we don't find a better way, we ditch publican and just publish the reports in the wiki
22:35:52 <cwickert> ok, anything more on this?
22:35:55 <cwickert> one more thing
22:36:11 <cwickert> we should try to figure out how many people actually read them :)
22:36:37 <cwickert> need to ask infrastructure if we can count file or wiki page access
22:36:47 <cwickert> say from unique IPs
22:36:47 <igorps> cwickert, that would be nice
22:36:49 <herlo> we could use some sort of stats system.
22:37:10 <cwickert> if only 10 people are downloading the report anyway, we should just get rid of publican
22:37:29 <cwickert> anyway, I think that's all for now, everything else will be tracked in trac
22:37:36 <cwickert> speaking of trac...
22:37:45 <igorps> cwickert, +1
22:37:49 <cwickert> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
22:38:13 <cwickert> #topic trac tickets
22:38:28 <cwickert> basically we have 3 tickets to vote on
22:38:36 <cwickert> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/241
22:38:59 <cwickert> igorps: can you give us details about this one?
22:39:15 <igorps> cwickert, sure
22:39:52 <igorps> we asked local ambassadors to publish how many medias were necessary for Fedora 16 time frame
22:40:05 <cwickert> ok, to me this looks good
22:40:07 <igorps> based on events and distribution in universities
22:40:15 <herlo> +1
22:40:15 <cwickert> I mean, we have a quote, we have numbers, everything
22:40:21 <cwickert> I think we should not delay it
22:40:22 <cwickert> +1
22:40:37 <cwickert> price looks ok to me, too
22:41:03 <herlo> it's reasonable for sure
22:41:12 <igorps> +1 :)
22:41:13 <cwickert> did we loose kaio?
22:41:25 <cwickert> kaio: we need a +1 from you ;)
22:41:55 <cwickert> this reminds me we need to work on the election rules and all that
22:42:07 <cwickert> who if you is at Blacksburg?
22:42:11 * herlo will be
22:42:12 <cwickert> s/if/of
22:42:19 * cwickert will be, too
22:42:33 <igorps> I won't :(
22:42:37 <herlo> I will be there extra long, from Thurs - Mon
22:42:40 <cwickert> zoltanh7211 won't either
22:43:05 <cwickert> herlo: do you already have a plan for Monday? My plane leaves on Tuesday
22:43:21 <cwickert> anyway, we just approve the ticket now
22:43:29 <cwickert> #agreed https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/241 is approved
22:43:41 <herlo> cwickert: I think my plane leaves around noon on monday
22:43:49 <herlo> so I could do something semi-early that day
22:43:53 <herlo> let me double-check
22:44:17 <cwickert> ok
22:44:24 <cwickert> next up we have https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/242
22:44:44 <cwickert> frankly speaking I am not sure what we are supposed to do there
22:44:57 * igorps is taking a look
22:45:02 <cwickert> and yn1v who filed the ticket is not here
22:45:03 <herlo> yeah, 11:20a departure, probably best to meet another day
22:45:08 * herlo looks
22:45:36 <cwickert> proposal: delay #242 until more people are there to discuss it and the reporter makes his intentions more clear
22:45:53 <cwickert> take your time to read the PDF
22:46:01 <cwickert> but I think there is not much for us to do
22:46:16 <igorps> "Meeting timings: No real solution"
22:46:20 <herlo> agreed. It's possibly useful for the general Ambassador population
22:46:29 <igorps> remember that :)
22:47:00 <cwickert> I would prefer is somebody approaches us with a real proposal
22:47:20 <herlo> cwickert: I agree, which is why I said 'possibly useful' :)
22:47:38 <cwickert> yeah, but they all need to be discussed individually and locally
22:47:45 <herlo> if someone wants to use that as a resource for something more developed, I'd love to see it presented at a meeting.
22:47:45 <cwickert> take the event box as an example
22:47:58 <cwickert> the event box makes sense in NA, but not in EMEA
22:48:08 <cwickert> we had this topic several times already
22:48:28 <cwickert> swag delivery needs to be improved, sure
22:48:29 <herlo> yup. I recall that conversation very muc, since I made the Event Box happen in NA
22:48:51 <cwickert> anyway, I suggest to delay this ticket until next week and we have more input
22:49:05 <herlo> probably push it back to the originator in trac?
22:49:09 <cwickert> and then split it into individual action items
22:49:15 <cwickert> ok, setting NEEDINFO
22:49:21 <herlo> with some sort of response, like that, haha nice!
22:49:24 * herlo was too slow!
22:49:32 <cwickert> btw: we now have the workflow plugin in trac thanks to nirik
22:49:53 <igorps> there are a lot of things in there, we need more time to analyze it for sure
22:49:54 <cwickert> this will let us create individual states like "waiting for receipts"
22:49:58 <nirik> hope it's handy for you folks. ;)
22:50:33 <cwickert> nirik: after you shut down the infrastructure twice during our meeting you owed us something ;)
22:50:43 <igorps> nirik, really nice, we missed something like that last term
22:50:45 * nirik nods. ;)
22:51:02 * cwickert nagged nirik, but didn't expect him to be that fast
22:51:14 <herlo> cwickert: indeed, workflows are nice in trac
22:51:22 <herlo> nirik is +1
22:51:25 <cwickert> #action cwickert to implement workflows in trac
22:51:33 <cwickert> ok, back to this ticket
22:51:37 <nirik> thanks also to averi. He packaged the plugin up. ;)
22:51:45 <herlo> :)
22:51:59 <averi> nirik: :)
22:52:18 <cwickert> propsal: delay #242 until next week when reporter is there. discuss it and split it into individual action items
22:52:38 <igorps> cwickert, +1
22:52:56 <herlo> +1
22:53:17 <cwickert> agreed: Delay #242 until next week when reporter is back. Discuss it and split it into individual action items.
22:53:29 <cwickert> next up we have #243
22:53:42 <herlo> cwickert: mind including the full link each time?
22:53:48 <herlo> makes it easier to review
22:53:50 <cwickert> sorry
22:53:55 <cwickert> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/243
22:54:07 <herlo> no problem, just a matter of simplicity :) and thank you
22:54:27 <cwickert> nirik: what does it take to get a zodbot command for this, say .famso #number?
22:54:40 <cwickert> .famsco 243
22:54:40 * nirik can add one now, just a sec.
22:54:54 * cwickert thinks that nirik rocks
22:55:07 <herlo> ooh, nice!
22:55:25 <cwickert> herlo: all proven workflows from FESCO
22:55:37 <cwickert> at least I have learned something there ;)
22:55:38 <nirik> sadly, the bot can't read the titles?
22:55:40 <herlo> cwickert: yeah, I've used it in -admin
22:55:54 <nirik> I guess you just want the link? not the title?
22:55:58 <cwickert> back to the ticket
22:56:02 <herlo> nirik: indeed
22:56:03 <cwickert> nirik: I don't care
22:56:15 <nirik> .famsco 243
22:56:17 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/243
22:56:23 <herlo> nice work!
22:56:33 <igorps> Wow! There we go! :)
22:56:38 <nirik> aliases are easy. Carry on. ;)
22:57:26 <cwickert> nirik: you could add the title behind the URL, but I don't really care
22:57:35 <cwickert> anyway, back to the ticket
22:57:45 <cwickert> we discussed it already in the EMEA meeting
22:57:48 <nirik> well, it can't read them, so it can't get the title. ;(
22:58:04 <nirik> needs login
22:58:06 <cwickert> nirik: ah, makes sense. I can add a user with permissions
22:58:28 <cwickert> zoltanh7211 already agreed there is little to do for FAmSCo
22:58:32 <nirik> if you add TRAC_VIEW to anonymous, anyone can read them.
22:58:56 <cwickert> nirik: that was just changed because we have private data in there
22:58:59 <igorps> I could push the Insight topic on LATAM meetings asking for help, maybe you guys could do the same
22:59:21 <cwickert> nirik: ah, TRAC_VIEW, not TICKET_VIEW, right?
22:59:24 <herlo> yeah, push it down to the regionals overall
22:59:30 <nirik> oops. yeah, TICKET_VIEW
22:59:34 <igorps> herlo, +1
22:59:41 <cwickert> zoltanh7211 will write a mail about this to the list
22:59:51 <cwickert> and we will have a hackfest in Blacksburg
22:59:58 <cwickert> so very little for us to do
23:00:11 <cwickert> should we leave the ticket open nevertheless?
23:01:03 <herlo> igorps: I think that's probably going to be a pretty standard response there. Maybe we can help with the communication process though?
23:01:37 <herlo> something like 'each FAMSCo member should approach their region at the regional meeting with any of these requests'?
23:02:02 * herlo isn't trying to institute a doctrine, however.
23:02:04 <cwickert> why is this region specific? Insight is a global project
23:02:14 <igorps> herlo, that's exactly what i was thinking
23:02:20 <herlo> cwickert: it's not region specific, but it needs to be pushed in each region
23:02:31 <cwickert> herlo: how?
23:02:36 <herlo> at least discussed and help with promotion and such
23:02:45 <cwickert> I think the only thing we can do is discuss this on ambassdors-list
23:03:09 <herlo> cwickert: well, if you want people to participate in your project, it's probably a good idea to invite them to discuss it in the regular meeting. The mailing list is a good place as well.
23:03:28 <cwickert> and zoltanh7211 already agreed to write that mail and handle communication between ambassadors and Insight team since he is a member of it
23:03:42 <igorps> I bet that some local ambassadors don't know what Insight is
23:03:44 <herlo> so my response would be something like, the representatives of the project might want to address regional ambassadors in each region looking for individuals...
23:03:50 <igorps> we need to help spreading the word
23:03:56 <cwickert> igorps: zoltanh7211 will explain all this in the mail
23:04:09 <herlo> igorps: exactly! You always need to publish multiple ways.
23:04:45 <igorps> talking about that on different languages will also help to collect ideas and feedback
23:04:49 <herlo> cwickert: is there something on the ml I've not seen yet?
23:05:08 * herlo admits he may have missed some today since he didn't get that far yet.
23:05:17 <cwickert> herlo: it was discussed just 2 hours ago
23:05:28 <herlo> cwickert: ahh, in EMEA, right?
23:05:39 <cwickert> and zoltanh7211 did not yet write that mail, I guess he went straight to bed after the meeting
23:05:41 <cwickert> yes, in EMEA
23:06:01 <cwickert> but please don't take it as a proov this needs to be dealt with on a regional level ;)
23:06:14 <herlo> okay, will wait to see where it goes.
23:06:22 <herlo> cwickert: I wasn't saying that at all
23:06:23 <cwickert> I gave him time to announce it in our announcements topic
23:06:34 <cwickert> this is indeed something we should encourage
23:06:39 <herlo> I was saying that it should be discussed in *every* region so more ambassadors can see it and help :)
23:06:47 <cwickert> ok
23:06:49 <herlo> cwickert: cool, sounds good
23:06:59 <cwickert> anyone to make a nice proposal of it?
23:08:01 <cwickert> a nice, short sentence please
23:08:17 <cwickert> herlo: you are a native english speaker, go ahead ;)
23:08:24 <herlo> as a response?
23:09:00 <cwickert> as something we can agree on in the meeting minutes
23:09:03 <herlo> ahh
23:09:10 <herlo> something like
23:09:12 <cwickert> and if you like, you can update the ticket a bit more elaborate
23:09:23 <igorps> herlo, you already said it all, just rephrase it :)
23:09:30 <herlo> igorps: right, was just confused
23:09:35 <herlo> k
23:09:41 * cwickert tends to confuse people
23:10:16 <herlo> Encourage the Insight project to visit each regional ambassadors meeting to help to promote their needs and request help.
23:10:19 <herlo> something like that?
23:10:36 <herlo> s/needs/project/
23:11:17 <cwickert> hmm, I think we should encourage FAmSCo members rather than Insight people
23:11:36 <herlo> oh, okay
23:11:40 <igorps> I was thinking something more like cwickert said as well
23:12:26 <herlo> so, we should probably do a needinfo on the ticket and then a FAMSCo member can visit their regional meeting.
23:12:51 <herlo> when we get the information about what, how and why Insight is important to Fedora, we can share that message more easily.
23:13:06 <cwickert> ok
23:13:19 <cwickert> this is basically what zoltanh7211 wanted to do anyway
23:13:53 <herlo> #action FAMSCo members to visit regional meetings to help promote Insight
23:14:06 <cwickert> +1
23:14:09 <igorps> +1
23:14:38 <cwickert> #agreed FAMSCo members should visit regional meetings to help promote Insight
23:14:47 <herlo> #action herlo to request more info from ticket #243
23:14:56 <cwickert> and for the meeting minutes:
23:15:34 <cwickert> #info Insight is an important project for Fedora and will help the ambassadors a lot. FAmSCo encourages any help you can give. Please contact us or zoltanh7211 for more info
23:15:41 <cwickert> I think that's all we can do
23:16:03 <igorps> cwickert, sounds good
23:16:34 <cwickert> #action cwickert to update #241 and #242
23:16:41 <cwickert> ok, anything more?
23:16:59 <igorps> nothing else from me
23:17:11 * herlo is good
23:17:12 <cwickert> two things that come to my mind
23:17:28 <cwickert> election guidelines, quorum and all that
23:17:38 <cwickert> and the meeting agenda, trac vs. wiki
23:17:59 <cwickert> but I think we are good for now and should discuss this with more people next week
23:18:17 <cwickert> as for the election guidelines, I first need to finish my draft
23:18:18 <herlo> cwickert: agreed. I'll bring up some things next week as well, it should be a full meeting :)
23:18:33 <cwickert> ok then
23:18:38 <cwickert> thanks everybody for attending
23:18:53 <cwickert> #endmeeting