13:00:20 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
13:00:20 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Sep 26 13:00:20 2011 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:00:20 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
13:00:23 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
13:00:23 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
13:00:28 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
13:00:33 * Sparks 
13:00:37 * jjmcd 
13:00:46 <pkovar> hi, I'm here
13:00:54 * suehle .
13:03:03 * fnadge too
13:03:15 * jhradilek is here
13:04:52 <Sparks> Okay, lets get started.
13:05:06 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
13:05:47 <Sparks> jjmcd: Send Project Wide-Final Release Notes Deadline
13:05:59 <jjmcd> nope
13:06:17 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to send Project Wide-Final Release Notes Deadlines
13:06:36 <Sparks> #action zoglesby to send reminder to Trans that Final Guides POT files are coming
13:06:49 <Sparks> #topic F16 Schedule
13:06:57 <Sparks> #link http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-16/f-16-docs-tree-tasks.html
13:07:25 <Sparks> F16 release slipped by two weeks which means we have that much more time to get the guides squared away.
13:07:41 <jjmcd> Still no RN POTs to tx
13:07:45 <pkovar> i changed the name for the fedora docs release set from f15 to just fedora documentation, so that's solved now
13:07:56 <Sparks> pkovar: +1
13:08:01 <Sparks> jjmcd: ?
13:08:04 <jjmcd> All ready to go and still can't push
13:08:09 <Sparks> Why not?
13:08:12 <pkovar> the pots for the user guide are on tx as well
13:08:19 <jjmcd> I was going to ask someone else to push
13:08:25 <jjmcd> but it might not be that simple
13:08:43 <Sparks> Why can't you push the pots?
13:08:47 <jjmcd> Release notes don't have all the same pieces release to release
13:08:54 <Sparks> Right...
13:08:58 <jjmcd> Some sort of credentials thing
13:09:05 <jjmcd> With no clue why
13:09:20 <jjmcd> my .txconfig looks exactly like nathant says it should
13:09:26 <Sparks> Okay.  Let's meet up in #transifex after the meeting and see if we can get it all straightened out.
13:09:29 <pkovar> jmcd: did you follow our wiki docs?
13:09:38 <jjmcd> pkovar, yup
13:10:00 <Sparks> #info jjmcd is having problems with Transifex and is unable to push Release Notes POT files.
13:10:02 <pkovar> will be in #transifex as well after the meeting
13:10:13 <Sparks> Okay, anything else regarding the F16 release?
13:10:37 <jjmcd> yes
13:10:47 <Sparks> go
13:10:49 <jjmcd> I notice folks are translating the f15 docs
13:11:04 <jjmcd> I assume they think they are f16
13:11:24 <pkovar> jjmcd: which guides do you mean?
13:11:31 <jjmcd> Release notes
13:11:34 <Sparks> Well, with the exception of the RN, the F16 docs are the F15 docs with a few additions so we should be able to use the F15 for F16
13:11:51 <jjmcd> Yeah, but not the RN which are totally new
13:11:55 <Sparks> Yeah, the RNs need to be removed from Transifex at some point.
13:12:05 <jjmcd> Or have releases noted
13:12:06 <Sparks> but when do we draw the line?
13:12:17 <jjmcd> In the old tx there were releases
13:12:23 <pkovar> jjmcd: for now, you could post an announcement on the rn project page
13:12:28 * Sparks could see branching the RNs in Transifex
13:13:02 <pkovar> i was thinking about several branches in tx too, but don't know the exact procedure to do that yet
13:13:16 <jjmcd> Perhaps a F16 Release Notes project
13:13:31 <jjmcd> For RN's there is almost nothing that carries over
13:13:33 <pkovar> though i asked on #tx last week, but got no answer
13:13:38 <jjmcd> Just the license nonsense
13:14:19 <pkovar> jjmcd: or you can just delete the resources for now from the rn project
13:14:30 <pkovar> so that the project is empty
13:14:36 <pkovar> for the time being
13:14:45 <jjmcd> Yeah, prolly should do a pull into f15 first just to keep that work
13:15:51 <pkovar> jjmcd: shall i delete the resources for you if you have problems with credentials?
13:16:02 <jjmcd> Let me do a pull first
13:16:10 <pkovar> jjmcd: ok
13:16:32 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the F16 release?
13:16:35 <jjmcd> If we can't resolve online quickly perhaps you could also push f16
13:16:48 <jjmcd> Should be good to go except for the tx push
13:17:05 <Sparks> Okay, lets move on...
13:17:10 <Sparks> #topic FUDcon Blacksburg
13:17:18 <Sparks> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Blacksburg_2012
13:17:43 <Sparks> Docs is planning on holding a couple of classes at FUDCon Blacksburg in January.
13:17:48 <Sparks> #info Docs is planning on holding a couple of classes at FUDCon Blacksburg in January.
13:18:21 <Sparks> #info The first class will be an introduction to Fedora Docs and the second will be an introduction to DocBook XML and Publican.
13:18:36 <Sparks> If anyone would like to help with either of these classes please let me know.
13:18:52 <suehle> If there's something useful I can do, I'd help with that.
13:19:02 <Sparks> jsmith is heading up the DocBook XML / Publican class and I believe jjmcd is helping him with that.
13:19:11 <suehle> I'm also working on bringing more of the Brand team with me to Blacksburg, so that might be a neat way to get them involved.
13:19:16 <Sparks> I'm heading up the introduction class and definitely need some help with that.
13:19:17 <jjmcd> No, I am doing Milan with jhradilek
13:19:33 <Sparks> jjmcd: You aren't coming to Blacksburg?
13:19:35 <jjmcd> Someone else is helping at Blacksburg, don't recall who
13:19:37 <Sparks> suehle: Awesome!
13:19:38 <jjmcd> YEs I am
13:19:57 <Sparks> jjmcd: So I hear that you will be helping jsmith with the class... :)
13:20:19 <jjmcd> jsmith indicated he would help out jhradilek and me at Milan
13:20:27 <Sparks> Okay
13:20:36 <jjmcd> I had no plans for Blacksburg, but no issue with helping, either
13:20:47 <jjmcd> Seemed like someone else was onboard there, tho
13:21:00 <Sparks> suehle: We having branding that goes into Publican so it might be good to get them involved.  :)
13:21:39 * Sparks should probably create a wiki page for planning those classes
13:22:15 <suehle> (the Red Hat brand team if that wasn't clear to people who don't know me)
13:22:36 <Sparks> suehle: You aren't bringing your personal branding team?
13:23:19 <suehle> I was considering that maybe not everybody in the world knows where I work. :)
13:23:20 * Sparks notes suehle also has her own theme music
13:23:29 <Sparks> :)
13:23:32 <suehle> But I'll work on getting a personal branding team. They can start with my shoe wardrobe.
13:24:00 <Sparks> It's still a bit early for FUDCon Blacksburg but it will be here before you know it.
13:24:05 <Sparks> Anything else?
13:24:53 <Sparks> #topic Docs QA
13:25:01 <Sparks> Okay, I have failed big time on this...
13:25:25 <Sparks> #action Sparks to send a message to the Docs list discussing the QA discussion at OLF.
13:25:55 <Sparks> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/docs/2011-September/013736.html
13:26:55 <Sparks> We discussed this at the Docs FAD at OLF earlier this month and came up with a reasonably shaky gameplan.  It definitely needs work and I think I'm going to have to work on getting folks involved.
13:27:21 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they want to discuss on this topic?
13:27:40 <pkovar> jhradilek ? :-)
13:28:24 <jhradilek> Well, I expressed my concerns in #fedora-docs two weeks ago. And I am still going to send a reply to the mailing list.
13:28:42 <Sparks> jhradilek: If it didn't happen on the list then it didn't happen.
13:28:57 <jhradilek> Sparks: Yep, I know. :-)
13:29:34 <Sparks> I believe everyone agrees we need a QA team to review our guides...
13:29:45 <jhradilek> Definitely.
13:29:56 <Sparks> I don't think everyone knows the goals, though, and are looking too hard at the tools in which to implement the process.
13:30:19 <Sparks> So perhaps we should rework this entire thing and start with getting the goals lined up, then the process, then the tools.
13:30:30 <jhradilek> Agreed.
13:30:43 <pkovar> agreed
13:30:55 <fnadge> excellent idea
13:30:56 <jhradilek> And personally, I think we already have all the tools we need. Well, except a build server perhaps.
13:31:08 <Sparks> A build server?
13:31:20 <pkovar> a staging server?
13:31:28 <jhradilek> That's what I meant.
13:31:38 <jhradilek> Doing it manually is still a bit cumbersome.
13:31:59 <Sparks> #action Sparks to work on the Docs QA wiki page to start with goals, then process, then tools.
13:32:21 <Sparks> jhradilek: You have your very own staging server right in front of you.  Build the source and review it.
13:32:42 <jhradilek> Sparks: That's not exactly what I meant.
13:33:08 <jhradilek> Sparks: I was thinking about publishing drafts, because for me, that is a thing we are missing at the moment.
13:33:45 <Sparks> jhradilek: We can publish drafts now.  We do it at docs.fp.o under Draft Documentation
13:33:54 <jhradilek> And even though people publish drafts from time to time, they are still way behind the development version.
13:34:26 <pkovar> Sparks: right, we only have the draft section, that is. i can see some documentation is already published under f16 though
13:34:50 <pkovar> so the process, if any, is not followed with  every docs
13:34:53 <Sparks> pkovar: Yep, I published the Security Guide under F16 because nothing changed.
13:35:07 <jhradilek> Sparks: Yeah, but to do it, you need to: pull the docs.fedoraproject.org repo, manually build the book, install it, commit the changes and wait.
13:35:09 <Sparks> We really don't have a process.
13:35:18 <pkovar> Sparks: aha, that makes sense, thanks for the clarification
13:35:24 <Sparks> jhradilek: Okay...
13:36:02 <pkovar> jhradilek: that's exactly why i think that translators won't be able to do publish the books themselves
13:36:10 <pkovar> Sparks: ^
13:36:23 <pkovar> it's too complicated right now
13:36:31 <Sparks> pkovar: Why not?  I don't have any super powers.
13:37:17 <pkovar> Sparks: yet you need to care aonly about docs
13:37:33 <pkovar> image that transl guys have a lot more work
13:37:49 <pkovar> many more tools that they need to learn and use
13:37:56 <Sparks> how so?
13:38:14 <Sparks> It is only five steps to publish a guide to the web
13:38:22 <pkovar> anyhow, why not just tell them use only git for the fedora docs
13:38:39 <pkovar> because transifex is then quite redundant
13:38:43 <Sparks> pkovar: We generally only use git.  The RH folks in Brisbane are the problems.
13:39:13 <Sparks> If the translators don't need transifex... why are they using it?
13:39:36 <Sparks> They already have access to the repositories... they can pull the pot files directly now.
13:39:38 <pkovar> Sparks: they need it to translate fedora software
13:39:51 <Sparks> I'm talking about Docs
13:40:00 <pkovar> Sparks: i believe that's the case for some of them only
13:40:26 <Sparks> ALL of our repositories can be read without permissions.
13:40:39 <Sparks> If you are talking about commit access then all they have to do is ask.
13:40:45 <pkovar> for now, they don't need to deal with git at all, and thats a big advantage
13:40:48 <Sparks> I have no problem giving translators commit access.
13:41:06 <Sparks> so what's the problem?  We are already pushing things to Transifex
13:42:00 * Sparks is confused
13:42:13 <pkovar> yep, so why not finish the whole process with the last step, that is publishing
13:42:29 <pkovar> if is it a big deal for guide owners
13:42:40 <pkovar> then it will be for translators too
13:42:49 <Sparks> Not exactly, it doesn't scale the same way.
13:43:20 <Sparks> Because the guide owner has to do each language individually.  So forty languages takes a while.
13:43:22 <jhradilek> Just as a side note: It is not a problem for me personally, but I agree with Petr that it is unnecessarily complicated at the moment.
13:43:37 <Sparks> jhradilek: It's five steps.
13:43:48 <pkovar> hrmm, let's think about it like it was sofware release and we would be telling translators to roll tarballs for us
13:43:53 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Publishing_a_document_with_Publican#Publishing_a_document
13:44:02 <jhradilek> Sparks: And 6.9GB transferred over a network. ;-)
13:44:10 <Sparks> jhradilek: Just the first time
13:44:18 <Sparks> pkovar: This isn't software.
13:44:23 <pkovar> Sparks: well, but it's about running one butch command
13:44:29 <Sparks> pkovar: The translators are literally creating a new guide.
13:44:33 <pkovar> batch, i mean :-)
13:44:34 <jhradilek> Sparks: Still a requirement to publish a book.
13:44:59 <Sparks> jhradilek: There isn't anything special about my computer...
13:45:14 <jhradilek> Huh?
13:45:19 <Sparks> This has gotten way off topic...
13:45:28 <jhradilek> :-)
13:45:33 <pkovar> okey :-)
13:45:57 <Sparks> We discussed this at the FAD.  No one there showed any concerns and no one called in to voice any concerns.
13:46:34 <pkovar> Sparks: unfortunately, i wasn't there
13:46:38 <Sparks> Having translators publish their own work solves so many problems and reduces the work load on the docs writer.
13:46:42 <Sparks> pkovar: You could have called in.
13:47:20 <Sparks> Okay, anything else on the QA topic?
13:47:26 <pkovar> right, but i know from working with translator communities that this process draft has some problems that i am concerned about
13:47:37 <pkovar> that's it,anyway :-)
13:47:54 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
13:48:22 <Sparks> #info Security Guide has been published for F16.  No major changes since F14 version.  Some chapters were rearranged.
13:48:32 <Sparks> Anyone have any updates for their guide(2)?
13:50:03 <pkovar> the brach for the user guide has been created
13:50:21 <pkovar> i mean the f16 branch
13:50:41 <Sparks> Has the UG been updated for GNOME 3?
13:51:04 <pkovar> fnadge: ?
13:51:56 <pkovar> fnadge told me that the kde chapter still needs some work
13:52:03 <pkovar> note sure about xfce
13:52:29 <Sparks> pkovar: Okay, since we have a couple more weeks before the release perhaps more work could be done before branching.
13:53:14 <pkovar> Sparks: people can always work on master and then merge back with the f16 branch, no problem
13:53:37 <Sparks> pkovar: Right.
13:53:47 <Sparks> Anything else?
13:54:19 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
13:54:33 <Sparks> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
13:54:56 * Sparks opens the link to determine how many outstanding bugs we have open.
13:55:47 <Sparks> Okay, network is being slow today.
13:56:08 <Sparks> Please review the open bugs for any guides you are working on and close what you can.
13:56:16 <pkovar> i'll close the oprofile bug against dg soon
13:56:17 <Sparks> #info 149 open bugs
13:56:25 <pkovar> have been working on it
13:56:29 <Sparks> :)
13:56:30 <Sparks> Okay
13:56:40 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
13:56:53 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they want to talk about in the four minutes we have left?
13:58:11 <pkovar> Sparks: so until we agree with trans guys on a new process..
13:58:31 <pkovar> i guess we are all supposed to follow the old procedure, right?
13:58:40 <Sparks> pkovar: What procedure?
13:58:41 <pkovar> with publishing and such
13:59:09 <Sparks> I don't think we have a procedure in place
13:59:27 <pkovar> because translators count with that, i mean that we will publish the docs for them
13:59:44 <Sparks> There isn't anything that says what you have to do with your work.  We have procedures that allow you to do things, like publish and package.
13:59:46 <pkovar> for this release,at least
14:00:25 <pkovar> so what is our message to translators then? for this upcoming release
14:00:38 <pkovar> diy?
14:01:01 <Sparks> I don't know.
14:01:20 <Sparks> And that's an hour.
14:01:22 <pkovar> we should know, the release is approaching :-)
14:01:34 <Sparks> We can continue this conversation over in #fedora-docs and on the list.
14:01:41 <Sparks> Thanks, everyone, for coming out.
14:01:47 <Sparks> #endmeeting