05:01:01 <tagoh> #startmeeting i18n
05:01:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 30 05:01:01 2011 UTC.  The chair is tagoh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:01:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:01:06 <tagoh> #meetingname i18n
05:01:06 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:01:15 <tagoh> #topic agenda and roll call
05:01:28 <tagoh> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2011-06-30
05:01:47 <tagoh> hi, shall we have weekly i18n meeting
05:01:56 <tagoh> who else here?
05:02:10 <dueno> hi
05:03:07 <epico_laptop> hi
05:03:17 <juhp> hi
05:04:11 <fujiwarat> hi
05:04:54 <pravins> hi
05:05:13 <paragan> hi
05:05:29 <tagoh> okay, let's get started then
05:05:37 <tagoh> #topic F16
05:07:02 <tagoh> well, the feature submission deadline is coming within about 2 weeks. so guess that may be good to go?
05:07:24 <tagoh> is there anything else we'd propose for f16?
05:07:33 <juhp> hm
05:09:05 <dingyichen> hi
05:09:31 <juhp> should we discuss with Input Integration feature more?
05:09:33 <tagoh> juhp: btw I'm still thinking to get rid of imsettings integration to gnomecc or siply add it as we planned in f15. what do you think?
05:09:38 <juhp> s/with/the
05:10:01 <juhp> tagoh: for f16 or forever? :)
05:10:16 <tagoh> at least for f16.
05:10:38 <juhp> okay
05:10:46 <juhp> any chance of an update for f15?
05:11:11 <juhp> tagoh: can you update the page for that then?
05:11:29 <tagoh> it sounds a bit too late to start negotiating upstream for integration for f16
05:11:33 <tagoh> juhp: sure
05:11:35 <tagoh> will do
05:11:43 <juhp> true
05:12:06 <juhp> but still maybe worth trying
05:12:22 <tagoh> anything else concerns to push this feature proposal?
05:12:30 <juhp> even if it doesn't land now
05:12:47 <tagoh> juhp: yep. good to start now for future release
05:12:53 <juhp> ok
05:14:01 <tagoh> fujiwarat, dueno: do you have anything for this feature?
05:14:17 <fujiwarat> Yesterday I updated ibus packages for f15 and it's pretty good. Probably I can start the discussion with upstream soon.
05:15:14 <fujiwarat> I separated xkb group layouts by engines and now input method and keyboard layouts are shown in ibus menu.
05:16:03 <fujiwarat> Now ibus menu also has the item of 'g-c-c- region'.
05:17:04 <tagoh> okay
05:18:48 <juhp> aha - sounds good
05:18:54 <juhp> going to try it
05:19:14 <fujiwarat> juhp: Now I have one problem about the new Control+Space.
05:19:31 <tagoh> so we've discussed enough for feature and is it ready to go? anything else?
05:20:01 <fujiwarat> The new Control+Space switches engines so the properties are lost if they are not saved in gconf.
05:20:38 <fujiwarat> Previously the properties are lost when ibus-daemon restarts.
05:21:50 <juhp> aha
05:22:09 <juhp> fujiwarat, so do we need a property for last used engine?
05:22:22 * tagoh updated the feature page
05:22:29 <juhp> tagoh: yeah, should we propose the feature?  hmm
05:22:55 <tagoh> juhp: any concerns?
05:23:01 <juhp> I guess we should show it to the desktop team first perhaps
05:23:16 <tagoh> aha
05:23:42 <juhp> fujiwarat, do you think we can propose the Feature for f16?
05:23:45 <fujiwarat> juhp: I'm not sure if we think it's a bug or specification.
05:23:47 <tagoh> post to the desktop list or ?
05:24:00 <juhp> fujiwarat, yeah maybe it is not that serious
05:24:11 <juhp> but would be nice to fix
05:24:33 <fujiwarat> e.g. When we change Hiragana to Katakana, Ctrl+Space resets the setting.
05:24:36 <juhp> tagoh: yeah I guess that would work
05:24:51 <juhp> ah
05:25:13 <juhp> ah "previously"
05:25:49 <tagoh> sounds like a bug to me
05:25:57 <juhp> fujiwarat, so fixable?
05:26:09 <fujiwarat> juhp: Hmm.., probably I would need the first feedback from upstream about f16.
05:27:15 <juhp> fujiwarat, okay - so do you want to post something fedora desktop list to start the conversation, or ?
05:27:19 <juhp> to
05:28:30 <fujiwarat> Ah, I'm thinking to contact irc with their time zone at first with updated the gnome bugzilla report.
05:29:57 <juhp> fujiwarat, which bug?
05:30:33 <fujiwarat> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=641531
05:30:36 <juhp> fujiwarat, not sure if we are talking about the same :)
05:30:49 <juhp> ok but what about our Feature page?
05:31:22 <juhp> heh the bug is still unconfirmed ;)
05:31:45 <juhp> fujiwarat, so it is not all upstream yet?
05:32:20 <fujiwarat> I thought, if the upstream agreed with the f16 time frame, probably we can update the feature page.
05:32:50 <juhp> fujiwarat, okay sure
05:33:01 <juhp> that would be good input indeed
05:33:58 <tagoh> guess we could get anything until next meeting? otherwise we might miss the deadline for feature submission
05:35:13 <tagoh> fyi, the feature submission deadline is July 12
05:35:29 <juhp> fujiwarat, is that possible?
05:35:51 <fujiwarat> hmm. The submission is important for us?
05:36:13 <juhp> fujiwarat, it is important in the sense that it gives attention to ibus
05:36:41 <juhp> fujiwarat, when do you think you might get an indication from upstream?
05:37:41 <juhp> anyway let's see next week or so - if we feel confident we can proceed with the feature submission otherwise leave it i guess
05:37:44 <fujiwarat> Hmm.., one problem is the ibus discussion depends on the new gjs package which is not released yet.
05:38:01 <juhp> fujiwarat, will it be in f16?
05:38:40 <fujiwarat> juhp: Yes, I think so. The bug is recently fixed.
05:39:49 <fujiwarat> OK, I will contact the upstream in this week.
05:39:55 <juhp> fujiwarat, ok - we only need to commit to the feature at this point, delivery is a bit later
05:39:57 <juhp> okay thanks
05:40:44 <tagoh> maybe also good to talk to the desktop team as well. they could help us if they think it's needed?
05:40:47 <juhp> perhaps at the same time I could bring to the attention of the fedora desktop list for any comments
05:40:50 <juhp> yes
05:41:31 <tagoh> okay, anything else on f16 topic?
05:41:46 <tagoh> if not, let's move on
05:42:38 <tagoh> #topic Input Methods
05:42:50 <tagoh> any updates on IM?
05:43:45 <tagoh> or does anyone have anything to continue the discussion about multilib issue?
05:45:54 <tagoh> nope?
05:45:56 <juhp> hmm I don't do anything on the multilib - feel like I had a action item
05:46:14 <juhp> actually wanted to bring up about firefox langpacks...
05:46:23 <juhp> for f16
05:48:05 <tagoh> juhp: yep - it was to raise the issue to upstream or the desktop team iirc
05:48:15 <juhp> heh :)
05:48:26 <juhp> okay - let me note it down....
05:48:53 <tagoh> juhp: any chance to get langpack on firefox?
05:49:05 <juhp> though... hmm might need to re-read last week's log first....
05:49:17 <juhp> don't remember the context/discussion well
05:49:29 <tagoh> well, actually the meeting two weeks ago
05:49:33 <juhp> tagoh: I don't know - I think think it is a good idea
05:49:37 <juhp> ah
05:49:47 <juhp> still think
05:49:52 <tagoh> we didn't have a time to discuss this last week
05:49:53 <juhp> (subpackaging)
05:49:57 <juhp> ok
05:50:11 <juhp> that helps to explain the haziness ;)
05:50:36 <tagoh> okay
05:50:45 <tagoh> anything else?
05:51:43 <tagoh> okay, better move on then
05:51:53 <tagoh> #topic Fonts and Rendering
05:52:02 <tagoh> any updates on fonts and rendering?
05:53:26 <epico_laptop> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/FontConfigurationTool
05:53:32 <juhp> oh
05:54:13 <tagoh> juhp: btw for PANGO_LANGUAGE config tool, I'd like to bring this up prior to start detailed discussion - is there any actual cases/issues that one needs to set to satisfy their requrement?
05:55:04 <juhp> tagoh: requirement?
05:55:09 <tagoh> epico_laptop: maybe better not limit CIJK?
05:55:20 <epico_laptop> tagoh:ok
05:55:39 <tagoh> juhp: doesn't one use PANGO_LANGUAGE they have any issues?
05:55:48 <tagoh> ^because
05:56:48 <juhp> tagoh: sorry not completely sure on your question - are you asking what problem we are trying to solve, or ?
05:56:53 <juhp> s/sure/clear
05:57:11 <tagoh> yes
05:57:14 <epico_laptop> For some Chinese users, some one are using English locale, but will read Chinese document. The fonts are mixed up with SC fonts and TC fonts.
05:57:42 <epico_laptop> set PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en to solve this.
05:57:43 <juhp> right
05:58:03 <juhp> so in that sense it is particularly not for CIJK users :)
05:58:05 <tagoh> well, just want to clarify the tool we are going to develop is just for the corner-case or
05:58:33 <juhp> tagoh: but epico_laptop thinks also need font priority config
05:58:43 <juhp> which can be used by all - so not that corner
05:58:46 <tagoh> because we don't have it now by default and apparently not seeing any issues on bz?
05:58:57 <juhp> heh
05:59:17 <juhp> I think it is kind of a FAQ?
05:59:19 <epico_laptop> . bug 708921
05:59:21 <zodbot> epico_laptop: Bug 708921 Chinese small font in Fedora 15's Firefox not as good as that of Ubuntu's - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=708921
05:59:45 <epico_laptop> I prefer to let the user to config the fonts himself.
06:00:00 <juhp> dangerous business ;0) :)
06:00:28 <epico_laptop> instead of changing the defaults in Fedora.
06:00:35 <juhp> tagoh: of course PANGO_LANGUAGE config is useless for users of ja desktop, etc
06:01:43 <juhp> in the ideal world it would be part of the desktop font/lang config I guess
06:01:59 <juhp> advanced I suppose
06:02:02 <tagoh> right
06:02:10 * epico_laptop think the user can specify wqy-microhei-fonts for sans/serif in his desktop.
06:02:38 <juhp> epico_laptop, your desktop?
06:02:55 <tagoh> yes, that idea sounds good but how to determine the language from fontset?
06:03:06 <epico_laptop> I use the default wqy-zenhei-fonts with bitmap-font enabled.
06:03:57 <epico_laptop> tagoh: it only changes ~/.fonts.conf with <alias><prefer><prefer></alias>.
06:04:18 <tagoh> hm, we are talking about different thing then :)
06:04:42 <juhp> tagoh: well PANGO_LANGUAGE and font priority would be orthogonal
06:04:52 <epico_laptop> tagoh: which tools? pango language or font priority?
06:04:54 <tagoh> PANGO_LANGUAGE stuff may be one of desktop integration task on gnomecc region perhaps?
06:05:44 <epico_laptop> tagoh: the pango tool is selected by the users, user tells pango, which languages he use.
06:08:02 <tagoh> what's wrong to be done in region settings then. there should be a lot of combinations though, there should be some patterns for useful combinations IMHO
06:08:39 <epico_laptop> the pango tool allows a list of language instead one.
06:09:06 <juhp> so currently on font config tool in gnome3?
06:09:16 <juhp> s/on/no/ !
06:09:22 <epico_laptop> s/allows/will allow/
06:09:54 <juhp> hmm again it may be hard to sell upstream though
06:10:24 <epico_laptop> this will be simpler than fontmanager.
06:10:30 <epico_laptop> s/this/this tool/
06:10:30 <juhp> right
06:10:45 <tagoh> we could do that at the startup time. and kind of this needs should be one time.
06:11:03 <tagoh> well, talking aboug PANGO_LANGUAGE
06:11:07 <tagoh> about
06:11:21 <juhp> yeah that would be enough I guess - ideally it should be dynamic of course
06:11:46 <tagoh> guess we could merge this into lang.sh perhaps?
06:12:09 <juhp> tagoh: how?
06:12:28 <tagoh> just set?
06:12:44 <juhp> to what? :)
06:13:05 <tagoh> that may be guessable from lang no?
06:13:20 <juhp> probably not I guess
06:13:21 <tagoh> as we have LANGUAGE for Chinese?
06:13:33 <juhp> when it is guessable we don't need it :)
06:13:38 <juhp> I think
06:14:08 <juhp> the rfe is to allow overriding PANGO_LANGUAGE if you like
06:14:29 <juhp> of course advanced users who know can already do that today
06:14:42 <tagoh> speaking of Chinese case, does everyone who use on Chinese desktop necessarily not need PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en say?
06:15:22 <epico_laptop> yes, but some ones accustomed to English locale.
06:15:30 <tagoh> one may not like it but one may like it?
06:15:53 <juhp> locale is probably en_US.UTF-8
06:16:01 <epico_laptop> For Chinese locale, it is not needed.
06:16:12 <tagoh> juhp: hm
06:16:48 <juhp> would be interesting to know what percentage of non-US users use en_US
06:17:23 <hicham> a lot
06:17:31 <tagoh> well, reminds me that using non-english language on en_US locale is really unpredictable. I don't think we can support all of requirements on it...
06:17:31 <juhp> yeah also my feeling
06:17:55 <juhp> but we can try to make it better
06:18:18 <juhp> unless you mean non-utf-8?
06:18:48 <tagoh> no
06:19:21 <epico_laptop> For SC users, PANGO_LANGUAGE=zh_CN:en is enough.
06:19:21 <hicham> I try to use my native language but then I get confused, so en_US is better ( at least for me )
06:19:42 <juhp> hicham, I know the feeling
06:20:05 <juhp> hicham, curious though - what is your native lang?
06:20:30 <hicham> juhp: arabic
06:20:35 <juhp> ah right
06:21:09 <tagoh> hicham: dunno what kind of difficulty you saw, is it impossible to get it fixed instead of changing the locale to en?
06:21:22 <juhp> translations?
06:21:39 <epico_laptop> translations for SC also I think.
06:22:07 <juhp> I think venture relunctantly guess to say that is the largest problem generally :-/
06:22:09 <tagoh> juhp: fwiw explicitly LC_MESSAGES is set since f15
06:22:21 <juhp> aha
06:22:33 <juhp> s/think//
06:22:41 <hicham> tagoh : first, no support in terminals (most of them), only one supporting bidi is mlterm
06:23:11 <epico_laptop> also in the past, fonts in SC locale is not so good.
06:23:24 <tagoh> hicham: aha
06:23:38 <pravins> epico_laptop: font selection tool looks good, since presently we are as a developer decide, which font to use for language.
06:23:49 <pravins> will be good if user can also get some control for this
06:23:58 <hicham> tagoh : second, not everything can be localized, example : your login name, computer name ...
06:24:08 <juhp> looks even better now that gnome doesn't seem to have one? :o)
06:24:23 <epico_laptop> pravins:thanks:)
06:24:29 <hicham> juhp: any code to test for fontconfig tool ?
06:24:38 <tagoh> hicham: heh. it's not arabic specific issue right?
06:25:03 <juhp> I think terminal rendering may also be poor in some other locales
06:25:13 <juhp> dunno if Korean any better now
06:25:16 <tagoh> juhp: right
06:25:17 <juhp> and yeah old SC
06:25:19 <hicham> tagoh : yeah, most issues are not arabic specific
06:25:48 <hicham> tagoh : one that is specific to arabic is ligatures
06:26:35 <tagoh> hm, well, we should try to fix as long as any issues can be fixed technically
06:27:07 <fujiwarat> hicham: fyi: bicon is available for fedora:
06:27:08 <fujiwarat> http://desktopi18n.wordpress.com/2011/01/31/bicon/
06:28:43 <tagoh> hicham: is that issue filed in bz btw? or known in upstream?
06:29:05 <tagoh> feel I saw that anywhere
06:29:35 <hicham> tagoh : I believe somebody filed a bug, let me look
06:29:42 <tagoh> ok
06:31:06 <tagoh> anyway, that's good to see we could clarify concerns for future tasks
06:31:43 <hicham> tagoh : it is fonts specific, kacst to be precise
06:31:46 <epico_laptop> ok
06:32:12 <tagoh> hicham: aha
06:32:23 <hicham> tagoh : ojuba ( an arabic fedora derivative ) is using some patches for them
06:32:41 <tagoh> do you have a bug#?
06:33:04 <hicham> tagoh : no, but ojuba maintainer told me he tried to get the patches into fedora and failed
06:33:23 <tagoh> aha
06:34:14 <tagoh> may be nice if you can get a bug#. interesting why it's failed
06:35:05 <tagoh> anyway, we are spending too much time on the meeting so better stop here today unless there are anything else urgent topics?
06:35:17 <hicham> tagoh : here is a screenshot of the ligatures bug http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/4/screenshotzgw.png/
06:35:34 <hicham> fujiwarat: thanks :) !
06:36:15 <tagoh> hicham: ah, I think I saw that in bz..
06:36:22 <tagoh> or similar
06:37:40 <tagoh> okay, thanks everyone for the meeting!
06:38:30 <tagoh> #endmeeting