05:03:08 <tagoh> #startmeeting i18n
05:03:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 23 05:03:08 2011 UTC.  The chair is tagoh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:03:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:03:13 <tagoh> #meetingname i18n
05:03:13 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:03:19 <tagoh> #topic agenda and roll call
05:03:30 <tagoh> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2011-06-23
05:03:35 <juhp> hi
05:03:40 <tagoh> hi guys
05:03:46 <epico_laptop> hi
05:03:51 <tagoh> let's have the i18n meeting
05:03:57 <tagoh> who else here today?
05:04:16 <paragan> hi
05:05:03 <dueno> hi
05:06:05 <dingyichen> hi
05:06:50 <tagoh> okay, let's get started
05:07:00 <tagoh> #topic F16
05:08:03 <tagoh> well, prior to continue a discussion about gnome IM integration, is there any topics related to f16 you want to bring up?
05:08:11 <pravins> hi
05:08:20 <tagoh> or any more feature proposals
05:09:49 <juhp> well the font config tool perhaps or we could take it later perhaps
05:10:23 <tagoh> guess more simple one than font-manager?
05:11:09 <juhp> yeah
05:11:28 <juhp> guess we need to think about the details more
05:11:37 <tagoh> sure
05:12:03 <nkumar> hi
05:12:05 <juhp> where is the best place to track the requirements?  a wiki page?
05:12:20 <tagoh> maybe pros and cons with the desktop tool too?
05:12:23 <juhp> hm or even feature page...
05:12:37 <juhp> aha
05:12:55 <juhp> yeah probably need to clarify the status quo limitations first
05:13:13 <tagoh> juhp: yep. maybe good to open a feature page even if we aren't going to propose it for f16 but later
05:13:24 <juhp> ok true
05:13:41 <juhp> epico_laptop, are you or jni interested?
05:15:51 <tagoh> okay, sounds good so far
05:15:57 <tagoh> anything else?
05:16:26 <epico_laptop> from last mail, I think jni is interested.
05:16:32 <juhp> yeah
05:16:42 <juhp> ok let me try to catch up with him later
05:16:51 <tagoh> cool
05:17:11 <tagoh> okay, back to the GNOME IM integration - any feedbacks on it?
05:17:26 <juhp> epico_laptop, but also need your help/input on the initial design :)
05:18:24 <epico_laptop> juhp: ok. create a wiki page?
05:18:52 <juhp> epico_laptop, if you can start the ball rolling that would be great
05:19:00 <epico_laptop> np.
05:19:08 <juhp> there is a template Feature page on the wiki
05:19:27 <juhp> thanks!
05:19:54 <epico_laptop> welcome.
05:19:59 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GnomeInputIntegration
05:20:11 <epico_laptop> thanks.
05:20:35 <juhp> fujiwarat, I was going to test your new ibus build on my testbox but then I realised it needs rawhide glib2...
05:21:07 <fujiwarat> why rawhide?
05:21:17 <juhp> at least noone touched the page ;)
05:21:35 <juhp> fujiwarat, I have rawhide in a guest - but it was f15
05:21:52 <juhp> perhaps I should rebuild...
05:21:52 <juhp> anyway
05:21:57 <fujiwarat> Ah, you upgraded to rawhide.
05:22:14 <juhp> yeah with yum
05:22:30 <tagoh> thought there should be a mail posted on the list recently guiding how to write better feature proposal though, can't find it out yet..
05:22:59 <juhp> fujiwarat, dueno, tagoh: so what are your thoughts on the current state of the feature page?
05:23:06 <juhp> and anyone else?
05:23:34 <fujiwarat> Yes, I'm updating I18N/InputMethods and will be lined to Features/GnomeInputIntegration and post an email.
05:23:38 * juhp doesn't particularly want to own it but wrote the draft to start things off :)
05:23:53 <juhp> okay
05:23:57 <fujiwarat> http://desktopi18n.wordpress.com/2011/06/23/ibus-icon-symbol-property/
05:24:02 <fujiwarat> Today's update
05:24:06 <tagoh> juhp: something on the scope is everything we want on this proposal right?
05:24:11 <juhp> also thinking we should ask the desktop team for input once we are ready?
05:24:45 <juhp> tagoh: I think so - though is still "negotiable" :)
05:25:24 <juhp> I guess my first question is is the scope realistic doable (timeframe?), etc? :)
05:25:57 <juhp> upstream might also take longer
05:26:34 <juhp> in that sense it would be better if we could "move" the feature to upstream, hmmm
05:26:36 <tagoh> juhp: it's not clear to me yet; does it expect to see possibly all keyboard layouts on imsettings too?
05:26:50 <juhp> tagoh: ah
05:27:23 <juhp> tagoh: I don't think so
05:27:33 <fujiwarat> I don't think imsettings touch kb.
05:27:41 <tagoh> right
05:28:46 <tagoh> presumed that we'd rather want to see GNOME ibus integration right?
05:28:54 <juhp> tagoh: I think for imsettings we would like a way to turn on IM from the keyboard settings in the control-center
05:29:14 <fujiwarat> I guess the main concern would be one window(currently) or one tab pane in g-c-c region
05:29:32 <juhp> it is quite possible I have glossed optimistically over the details...
05:30:11 <juhp> right we don't want a separate capplet for IM by default i think
05:30:20 <juhp> or that is my thinking
05:30:50 <juhp> hmm
05:31:16 <juhp> anyway I am seeing I have not given enough thought to the details on the config side
05:31:31 <juhp> tagoh: how do you see it?
05:32:29 <tagoh> so integrating imsettings features too to upstream capplet?
05:33:08 <juhp> I think initially users should select their kbd from gdm
05:33:47 <juhp> then we need a capplet if they want to add another layout or IM
05:34:30 <juhp> once we have a indicator running they could configure/change layout there perhaps
05:34:50 <tagoh> aha
05:35:16 <juhp> tagoh: hm yeah that is where it starts to get slightly "political" - but isn't it about time IM was officially supported by gnome? :)
05:36:14 <juhp> as such it is not force ibus though presumably ibus would be the preferred default choice
05:36:39 <juhp> in practice supporting other IMs might be done via im-chooser etc
05:37:18 <juhp> s/is/does/
05:37:41 <juhp> any clearer? :)
05:38:39 <juhp> dunno if we can do IME selection from the capplet - I think I would be ok with the status quo there for now - but at least a checkbox to turn on IM would be very nice
05:38:43 <fujiwarat> I would think ideally if the setting could be plugin.
05:38:51 <juhp> aha
05:39:48 <tagoh> sure. well, basically I didn't change the position about IM and think imsettings/im-chooser is still needed to provide a feature to support various IMs for users' preference. but as mclasen said before, integrating imsettings to the desktop may be complicated. apparently they want to be a simple. so doing it to the keyboard layout layer may be wrong to me, because they need to dig down more to choose their preferred IME on ibus or such t
05:40:06 <juhp> also the keyboard capplet should be separated from Languages IMHO
05:40:36 <juhp> hm
05:41:09 <juhp> tagoh: so you prefer to keep status quo: lang/region and im capplets?
05:41:09 <fujiwarat> Yes, otherwise probably you might need to convince upstream :).
05:41:13 <tagoh> well, I'm not quite sure if the specific IM to be integrated to the desktop is good or not, particularly without any way to switch to another IM
05:41:47 <juhp> well no particular IM at least visibly
05:41:54 <juhp> just an IM on/off button
05:42:29 <juhp> I suppose it could be analogous to the old on/off button in im-chooser
05:42:31 <tagoh> juhp: maybe good to clarify the requirement
05:42:45 <juhp> but yeah convincing upstream may be some work...
05:43:13 <juhp> but if we don't do this IM is going to be a second class citzen forever :(
05:44:03 <tagoh> I was thinking more on this feature to have IME selection and keyboard layout on the same place
05:44:23 <juhp> it is bit frustrating though that google has basically already done all this in chromiumos....
05:44:33 <juhp> tagoh: yes?
05:44:53 <juhp> though even chromiumos is not 100% IMHO
05:44:58 <juhp> right
05:45:29 <juhp> or maybe we just want ibus to take over control of xkb when it is running
05:45:35 <tagoh> like both could be IM in the general meaning
05:45:51 <juhp> okay
05:46:16 <juhp> the current separation of xkb and im is quite unnatural
05:46:26 <tagoh> agree
05:46:28 <juhp> very "open source" though ;-)
05:47:22 <juhp> I think should talk the desktop guys on this and see how gnome and they stand on it now
05:47:26 <juhp> we ^
05:47:47 <tagoh> ideally that would be nicer if users can choose their preferrable IM without what exactly "IM" they use.
05:47:50 <juhp> surely they also should want gnome to be modern intl desktop
05:48:19 <juhp> tagoh: not sure I agree - i think the distro chooses the default
05:48:35 <juhp> custom/power users is another story
05:49:03 <juhp> they can use gsettings/im-chooser etc to override that
05:50:00 <juhp> hmm theoretically we could even support switching between different immodules but not sure we want to go there
05:50:24 <juhp> well pretty sure we don't
05:50:44 <tagoh> yep. for non-power users, kind of imsettings layer shouldn't be visible IMHO except IM on-off feature. and IME selection should be transparent
05:50:48 <juhp> anyway talk is cheap as they say - I am just trying to work out what is possible at this time :-)
05:50:58 <juhp> tagoh: yes
05:51:35 <tagoh> so wanted to clarify what we want to do on this feature about it :)
05:52:09 <fujiwarat> juhp: It's better to try the latest ibus
05:52:33 <juhp> fujiwarat, ok
05:52:37 <juhp> I will :)
05:52:51 <tagoh> anyway, that would be good to discuss or write up some more detailed requirements on feature page or another.
05:52:52 <juhp> fujiwarat, does it help in fallback mode too?
05:53:25 <juhp> right - that is why I was hoping you guys might add some more details and thoughts - perhaps I should have let one you start...
05:53:34 <juhp> of
05:53:50 <fujiwarat> In the fallback mode, I don't change any icons but it also has the feature of the new Control+Space.
05:53:58 <juhp> config integration may be hard in the f16 timeframe dunno?
05:54:05 <juhp> aha
05:55:14 <tagoh> since we need to negotiate upstream for integration, maybe unlikely
05:55:23 <juhp> tagoh: do you think it is possible to get imsettings included in gnome/gtk?
05:55:47 <tagoh> in f16 timeframe? maybe not.
05:55:56 <juhp> at all? :)
05:56:35 <juhp> nm - I guess anyway for distros with IM there would be no checkbox
05:56:38 <juhp> without
05:57:07 <juhp> I guess I mean imsettings as standard for activating IM
05:57:59 <juhp> hm maybe it is not strictly necessary I dunno
05:58:18 <juhp> anyway need more discussion I guess
05:58:21 <tagoh> since control-center is connecting to ibus directly so far, may be hard or need more time to convince upstream
05:58:23 <tagoh> I guess
05:59:08 <juhp> but we already saw problem of separate capplet in f15
06:00:40 <tagoh> well, we could simply put im-chooser capplet in f16 perhaps. getting rid of it in f15 was to solve upgrading issue basically. so we have a lot of time to think about it yet
06:00:46 <juhp> anyway I agree this problem needs to be solving by working with upstream
06:01:33 <tagoh> okay, better move on..
06:02:03 <juhp> tagoh: sure - I guess I am just saying that by separating it or making it optional there is the danger that it will not be present and then users don't know how to turn on IM
06:03:02 <tagoh> sure. relnotes or wiki may be optional to imform something
06:03:05 <tagoh> too
06:03:05 <juhp> sure - we probably spent enough time on it today :)
06:03:31 <tagoh> #topic Input Methods
06:03:51 <tagoh> well, better postpone multilib issue discussion too unless there are any quick update
06:03:57 <juhp> hm maybe we should allow activating im from gdm
06:04:09 <tagoh> is there any particular thing you want to bring up now?
06:04:17 <juhp> like chromiumos
06:04:34 <tagoh> juhp: aha. sounds interesting
06:04:51 <juhp> yeah
06:05:14 <juhp> fujiwarat, do you want to tell about latest ibus changes?
06:05:32 <juhp> and changes needed for IMEs?
06:06:03 <fujiwarat> dueno: I updated the installation for ibus simply:
06:06:04 <fujiwarat> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/InputMethods#GNOME-Shell
06:06:21 <fujiwarat> s/updated/am updating/
06:06:46 <fujiwarat> Probably it's enough for now.
06:06:56 <fujiwarat> juhp: Yes, I have.
06:07:33 <fujiwarat> The latest is ibus- which is not put in updating-testing repo yet.
06:08:09 <fujiwarat> Now it will has the several features.
06:08:51 <fujiwarat> 1. icon string on ibus panel icon.
06:09:57 <fujiwarat> All engines needs the following changes:
06:09:59 <fujiwarat> http://pkgs.fedoraproject.org/gitweb/?p=ibus-anthy.git;a=commitdiff
06:10:50 * juhp likes (1) :)
06:11:12 <tagoh> aha
06:11:12 <fujiwarat> 2. new Control+Space to switch previous and current engines.
06:11:56 <fujiwarat> Probably it would need furthermore testing
06:12:20 <fujiwarat> 3. IME specific hotkeys
06:13:25 <fujiwarat> Currently Control+Space only is activated and other keys are removed so if a engine need other hotkeys, it needs to update the compose file.
06:13:44 <juhp> and (2)
06:13:50 <juhp> wow
06:14:51 <fujiwarat> 4. Revised 'Customize active input method' in ibus-setup for preloaded engines.
06:15:26 <fujiwarat> I added one info dialog. It would be nice if I could get any feed back about the dialog.
06:17:10 <juhp> fujiwarat, sure - will definitely be doing some testing
06:17:24 <tagoh> okay, anything else?
06:20:30 <tagoh> we have spent too much so let's close the meeting and postpone other topics to next meeting unless there are any urgent matter
06:20:56 <dingyichen> fujiwarat, does 2) english count as "other language"?
06:20:58 <pravins> tagoh: yeah, nothing much from my side as well
06:22:43 <tagoh> okay, keep a discussion on #fedora-i18n if you want. thanks everyone for the meeting!
06:22:59 <paragan> thanks
06:23:01 <juhp> dingyichen, I am assuming so
06:23:39 <dingyichen> Ok, otherwise people will complain about it.
06:23:58 <tagoh> #endmeeting