05:04:53 <tagoh> #startmeeting i18n
05:04:53 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jun 16 05:04:53 2011 UTC.  The chair is tagoh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:04:53 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:04:58 <tagoh> #meetingname i18n
05:04:58 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:05:09 <tagoh> #topic agenda and roll call
05:05:17 <tagoh> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2011-06-16
05:05:36 <tagoh> hi guys, let's have the i18n meeting
05:06:23 <dueno> hi
05:06:29 <epico_laptop> hi
05:07:49 <fujiwarat> hi
05:08:26 <juhp> hi
05:08:34 <paragan> hi
05:09:21 <tagoh> ok, let's get started
05:09:32 <tagoh> #topic F16
05:09:53 <tagoh> juhp: any progress/updates on feature draft?
05:09:58 <juhp> yeah
05:10:23 <juhp> sorry a bit late but wrote a draft
05:10:30 <tagoh> cool
05:10:44 <juhp> is GnomeInputIntegration a good name for the feature?
05:11:03 <juhp> thought I would ask before saving ;-) :)
05:11:06 <pravins> hi
05:11:23 <tagoh> is it a goal we want to do right? :)
05:11:40 <juhp> maybe Gnome_Input_Integration better hmm
05:12:12 <juhp> hmm well yeah probably easier to answer after reading it...
05:13:17 <tagoh> either may be ok
05:13:37 <juhp> yeah just thinking latter might be easier to read
05:13:47 <juhp> well ok let me save then...
05:14:20 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/GnomeInputIntegration
05:14:50 <juhp> I should probably have discussed with you guys beforehand but perhaps we can have some discussion now... :)
05:15:05 <tagoh> sure. reading now...
05:16:55 <juhp> well as writing a few concerns came up - like fesco/desktop may complain it is too dependent on upstream but anyway i think it is worth trying for
05:17:10 <juhp> you may have other technical concerns? :)
05:17:50 <tagoh> fujiwarat: what do you think?
05:18:33 <juhp> I think some of the details need more fleshing out of course
05:19:06 <tagoh> this draft is good start to discuss
05:19:11 <fujiwarat> Hmm.., maybe I think it's a good start.
05:19:13 <juhp> dueno and others, any comments too?
05:19:18 <juhp> okay thanks
05:19:44 <juhp> well appreciate if you could add some more detailed technical details
05:20:05 <juhp> I went ahead and added your names...
05:20:41 <tagoh> may need some time to think? we have a few time to propose this for f16. so we can even have a time to discuss about this feature in next meeting perhaps?
05:21:31 <juhp> sure if could update with your input and details and concerns by next week that would be great
05:21:49 <tagoh> even good to say anything if you have something now
05:21:55 <juhp> :)
05:22:21 <juhp> might need to make some adjustments to the scope etc possibly
05:23:18 <tagoh> sure
05:24:08 <juhp> ok I added the link on agenda page now for reference
05:24:27 <tagoh> thanks
05:26:04 <juhp> anyone been able to install/update to rawhide?  maybe not?
05:26:13 <tagoh> okay, let's discuss this in next meeting. if you have any concerns/idea to improve the proposal, you could update it any time prior to have next meeting
05:26:44 <juhp> (I tried live last week but it didn't boot...)
05:27:01 <juhp> great
05:27:17 <tagoh> any other feature proposals if anyone has? or anything you want to bring up for f16 so far?
05:27:42 <tagoh> juhp: not yet tried
05:28:32 <tagoh> maybe better move on
05:28:42 <tagoh> #topic Bugzilla house keeping
05:29:17 <tagoh> well, 4 bugs on f13 still keeps open now - abrt bugs
05:29:53 <tagoh> also tried to triage some bugs in f14 last week
05:31:07 <juhp> when does F13 EOL actually btw?
05:31:14 <tagoh> hm, 3 for stardict and 1 for translate-toolkit
05:31:38 <tagoh> 1 month after GA released?
05:31:56 <juhp> translate-toolkit is f13 only iirc?
05:32:08 <juhp> bug I mean
05:32:19 <tagoh> aha
05:32:30 <tagoh> dunno
05:34:09 <tagoh> guess after 1 week?
05:34:52 <juhp> sorry seems was also f14
05:35:28 <tagoh> juhp: so you can reproduce it?
05:35:54 <tagoh> can you update bug then?
05:37:05 <juhp> yeah I just moved it
05:37:15 <tagoh> anyone can reproduce stardict bugs?
05:37:16 <juhp> no I haven't reproduced
05:37:27 <tagoh> juhp: aha okay
05:37:38 <juhp> (translate-toolkit)
05:37:44 <tagoh> yep
05:38:20 <juhp> epico_laptop, do you think those stardict bugs are serious?
05:39:14 * epico_laptop is not stardict maintainer.
05:39:29 <juhp> I know...
05:39:50 <juhp> I guess problem it is no maintained anymore?
05:40:29 <tagoh> I can see some upstream activities so that may be not true. but in Fedora, maybe right ;)
05:40:34 <juhp> aha
05:40:52 <juhp> any newer releases?
05:40:53 <epico_laptop> some volunteers are maintaining. Zheng Hu has left Ithink.
05:41:35 <juhp> anyway probably don't need to worry too much about the f13 stardict bugs
05:41:54 <epico_laptop> the project state of stardict maybe not so good.
05:42:09 <tagoh> hm, okay. if it's reproducible in later version, users would file a bug again then...
05:42:40 <juhp> seems to be 3.0.2 available
05:43:03 <tagoh> but let's wait for some feedbacks on bz till it's closed by bug zapper. we could take some actions after that
05:43:32 <epico_laptop> 3.0.1 in F15.
05:43:59 <tagoh> aha. any volunteers to update? :)
05:44:16 <tagoh> or even good to file a bug for new release
05:44:32 <tagoh> is it not monitoring for new release?
05:45:15 <juhp> yeah
05:46:27 <tagoh> ok, shall we move on then?
05:46:52 <tagoh> #topic Package Updates
05:47:18 <tagoh> any packages needing testers?
05:48:19 <tagoh> didn't have a time to help it out last week though..
05:49:58 <tagoh> anything? we could catch this up in each sections perhaps?
05:50:55 <tagoh> okay, move on then
05:50:59 <juhp> aha yeah might work
05:51:05 <tagoh> #topic Input Methods
05:51:46 <tagoh> well, multilib discussion on gtk+ was carried over from last meeting though
05:52:13 <tagoh> so what should we take next action for that? any idea?
05:52:29 <tagoh> apparently no response on bz yet
05:53:39 <juhp> hmm
05:53:54 <juhp> is there an upstream bug?
05:54:30 <tagoh> I think there is
05:55:10 <tagoh> well, not generally but immodule specific
05:55:27 <tagoh> should we file new one for all modules?
05:55:56 <tagoh> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=603559
05:56:04 <tagoh> juhp: actually you did :)
05:56:11 <juhp> ah right :)
05:57:12 <tagoh> that may be even good to move this to yum once perhaps
05:57:50 <juhp> well at minimal gtk should not try to open modules for wrong arch but some fallback for IM would be good
05:58:04 <tagoh> may need to sumarize to make it understand for yum people though
05:59:52 * paragan see harfbuzz package review is approved by mclasen now
05:59:54 <tagoh> juhp: yeah
06:00:00 <juhp> oh
06:00:09 <tagoh> aha
06:00:25 <tagoh> nice
06:01:04 <tagoh> so any suggestions for multilib issue? :)
06:01:24 <juhp> for the modules dunno if it is better to email mclasen or gtk mailing-list perhaps?
06:02:27 <tagoh> juhp: hm, do you want to raise it there?
06:03:15 <juhp> well that's the only way I can think of getting attention
06:04:44 <tagoh> okay, dunno if they have another mind to do it in gtk+ rather than package manager though
06:05:51 <juhp> yeah well for the IM side yum might be enough if it can work
06:06:06 <tagoh> or in desktop list may be good if this is a fedora specific?
06:06:27 <juhp> I don't think yum can force multilib per se
06:06:51 <juhp> yeah - I guess problem is upstream/desktop don't think it is a priority...
06:07:54 <tagoh> also may need to make the point clearer. just simply saying multilib may be not enough to get understanding
06:08:55 <tagoh> anyway, would be good start to make some progress
06:09:07 <tagoh> shall we move on then
06:09:27 <tagoh> #topic Fonts and Rendering
06:10:54 <pravins> tagoh: not much on fonts on rendering
06:10:58 <tagoh> not too much time to keep the meeting now as well as last meeting... juhp, do you want to have a summary for PANGO_LANGUAGE config tool idea for later discussion?
06:11:23 <tagoh> pravins: sure
06:11:24 <juhp> ah well
06:11:34 <pravins> on harfbuzz mailing list lots of discussion happening on indic shaper :)
06:11:41 <pravins> behdad said he started working on it
06:11:48 <tagoh> aha. sounds nice
06:12:15 <pravins> i have to complete tamil typing booster and resolved one Lohit Telugu bug
06:12:17 <tagoh> pravins: any plans for roadmap say?
06:12:21 <juhp> just idea to have a simple config tool to set PANGO_LANGUAGE for to help lang/font priority
06:12:27 <pravins> then i will also start working on harfbuzz
06:12:55 <pravins> tagoh: no, nothing declared about roadmap
06:12:57 <juhp> of course ideally if it could use gsettings say like font changes
06:13:22 <tagoh> juhp: okay, may be good to integrate this feature to similar feature in desktops?
06:13:36 <tagoh> pravins: aha
06:13:55 <juhp> so actually could be somewhat like imsettings
06:14:04 <epico_laptop> juhp: also sans/serif alias fonts editing in pango tool?
06:14:22 <juhp> epico_laptop, aha I hadn't thought about that
06:14:51 <epico_laptop> for sans, user can prefer to use WQY microhei instead of ZenHei.
06:15:06 <epico_laptop> also tips for zenheiset tool to inform our user?
06:15:22 <tagoh> epico_laptop: so how about proposing changing the default font for Chinese?
06:15:35 <tagoh> if it's majority in Chinese community?
06:16:00 <epico_laptop> tagoh: I think maybe put the prefs in .fonts.conf is ok.
06:16:08 <juhp> epico_laptop, are microhei and zenhei different style?
06:16:24 <epico_laptop> the users prefer to different default fonts.
06:16:49 <juhp> epico_laptop, I think fontmanager can be used to change priority of fonts?
06:17:17 <epico_laptop> microhei and zenhei are similar. but microhei appears later, and designed for embed system. some users prefers microhei.
06:17:18 <tagoh> that makes sense since either aliases are actually different fonts and should be..
06:17:54 <epico_laptop> juhp: yes, but that functionality is a little hard to find in fontmanager.
06:18:16 <epico_laptop> the fonts conf written by fontmanager is a little complicated I think.
06:19:32 <tagoh> epico_laptop: I'm not sure what exactly those fonts matches to sans or serif but apparently zenhei is used for both so far. if it's not comfortable, you can propose changing the default font
06:20:09 <epico_laptop> tagoh: the problem is that, some users prefer zenhei, but some users prefer microhei.
06:20:28 <juhp> epico_laptop, okay
06:20:57 <juhp> epico_laptop, yeah but it is not really relevant to sans vs serif
06:21:37 <tagoh> if more people likes microhei as default font for either of alias, you could update conf file for that and for those who don't like, they could simpl uninstall it to get zenhei back for default for that alias?
06:21:53 <epico_laptop> a tool to let users edit the sans/serif alias fonts, like <alias> </alias>.
06:22:05 <epico_laptop> but some user also prefer install some fonts from other sources.
06:22:18 <epico_laptop> like zysong.ttf.
06:22:20 <juhp> epico_laptop, gnome fonts config is not good enough?
06:22:43 <juhp> so you mean just for zh right?
06:23:10 <tagoh> juhp: may want to have one for the whole desktop like prefs in firefox say?
06:23:43 <epico_laptop> juhp: maybe, some users changes all desktop fonts to MicroHei or ZenHei.
06:23:53 <juhp> okay
06:24:04 <juhp> so maybe we need fonts priority tool after all?
06:24:20 <epico_laptop> with this tool, users can specify both microhei and zenhei in some order for sans.
06:24:32 <juhp> right
06:24:51 <epico_laptop> some users want to specify a font list instead of one font.
06:25:07 <juhp> for fallback?
06:25:19 <epico_laptop> yes.
06:25:49 <epico_laptop> microhei falls back to zenhei, etc.
06:25:50 <juhp> ok
06:26:35 <tagoh> okay, let's discuss this in next meeting (again) if you want. time to close the meeting soon..
06:27:02 <tagoh> anything else prior to close?
06:27:04 <epico_laptop> ok.
06:28:20 <tagoh> okay, thanks everyone for the meeting!
06:28:50 <tagoh> #endmeeting