fedora-meeting
LOGS
16:00:06 <spevack> #startmeeting Finance SIG initial conversation
16:00:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Mar  4 16:00:06 2011 UTC.  The chair is spevack. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:22 * kital is here
16:00:24 * rbergeron is here
16:00:29 <kital> hi spevack rbergeron
16:00:42 <rbergeron> kital: yes it was like 1 in the morning when you pinged me btw ;) i just happened to wake up for a few minutes
16:00:54 <kital> ;)
16:01:19 <spevack> hi everyone, thanks for coming
16:01:24 <spevack> we'll wait another couple of mins
16:02:23 <spevack> even if there aren't tons of people here, I think it's important to still have a bit of discussion, and let people read logs and start to build confidence that this Finance SIG idea is something that has merit
16:02:36 <spevack> though perhaps not as valuable as the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Meat_SIG
16:02:40 <spevack> :)
16:03:11 <rbergeron> wait
16:03:34 <rbergeron> Wow.
16:03:37 * ianweller lurks
16:03:38 <rbergeron> lol
16:04:10 <ianweller> i am joining that SIG right now
16:04:18 <rbergeron> No kidding
16:04:29 <spevack> So we'll get started
16:04:36 <spevack> inode0: ping if you're available
16:05:00 * inode0 is here
16:05:04 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Finance_SIG
16:05:28 <spevack> Looking at that agenda, I'd like to just talk down that list of items, which I think is a good way for us to get started.
16:05:50 * pingou is around
16:06:23 <spevack> From my point of view, the reason why we're here, and the reason why a Finance SIG is being slowly scaffolded together, is to try to evolve the manner in which Fedora's budget is actually managed while at the same time putting into practice some new management techniques.
16:06:29 <spevack> So there's a process side, and a communications side.
16:06:52 <spevack> I'll note that none of this is about TRANSPARENCY, per se.  We have a long history of budget transparency, the home of which is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Accounting
16:07:26 <spevack> But what I think many folks recognize is necessary is spreading control of Fedora's money out to a wider group of responsible people, and along with that, making sure there is strong communications.
16:07:38 <spevack> So that's the starting point for me.
16:07:54 <spevack> Another factor is the desire to see Fedora's resources more optimally spent.
16:08:10 <spevack> And I think there are lots of things beyond the "standard events" that we do that could use small injections of money to help further their goals
16:08:29 <spevack> comments thoughts so far?
16:09:17 <spevack> I'll continue then.
16:09:20 <rbergeron> :)
16:09:34 <spevack> Why are we here? Why do we need more budget-related planning and collaboration?
16:09:41 <spevack> I think I've already touched on this a bit.
16:09:46 * kital appologizes for being not very focused - work on the fudcon emea bid right now sorry :S
16:10:12 <spevack> But we're very close now to rolling out community credit cards in 3 regions of the world, and 2011 is going to show us that we'll have multiple FUDCons all being planned in parallel.
16:10:34 <spevack> The amount of different people spending Fedora's money is large, and is expanding beyond just Ambassadors and FAMSCO and people who are planning the *next* FUDCon.
16:10:55 <spevack> I see the finance sig as a way to have a clearing house for all this parallel work.
16:11:13 <spevack> What groups do we hope to serve?
16:11:26 <spevack> The short answer is everyone.
16:11:31 <spevack> The more realistic answer is
16:12:01 <spevack> FAMSCO, FESCO, the ambassadors and technical contributors that those steering committees help, the Board, and the folks who try to make FUDCons and FADs happen.
16:12:04 <kital> so it is a group to shape the process? or also do the work - booking stuff etc....
16:12:22 <spevack> that's a good question.
16:12:47 <spevack> I think that process and actually doing stuff are a bit separated, though sometimes you'll have people who do both of those activities.
16:13:11 <spevack> I envision the finance sig becoming a weekly review of Fedora's total big picture budget.
16:13:42 <spevack> What have we spent on different regions and activities?  What's currently coming up?  Do those things have owners and a process for spending their budget and getting reimbursed, etc?
16:13:42 <kital> good!
16:14:10 <Southern_Gentlem> so a tracker for bills ?
16:14:35 <spevack> s/bills/expenses in their many forms/
16:14:44 <spevack> other thoughts comments or better ways of saying it?
16:15:07 <rbergeron> Financial Logistics :)
16:15:16 <spevack> On some level, I want to simply start doing my more-or-less-weekly balancing and updating of Fedora's books in public.
16:15:24 <spevack> Normally I just make the end result of that activity public
16:15:32 <spoleeba> spevack, the pot of money is basically still allocated from RH?
16:15:53 <spevack> spoleeba: indeed.
16:15:54 <spoleeba> spevack, this is basically adding oversight to the pot
16:16:17 <Southern_Gentlem> spoleeba, community oversight
16:16:21 <spoleeba> spevack, in grant terms that I understand... Finance SIG is the NSF...and RH is congress
16:16:38 <spevack> well said, Southern_Gentlem.  Is that community oversight valuable or needed?  Or am I just making work?
16:17:12 <Southern_Gentlem> spevack,  at least it is as public as we proable can make it
16:17:21 <spoleeba> spevack, its valuable...especially when there are more ideas than funding
16:17:40 <spevack> I also see it as an opportunity, once those community credit cards are in people's hands, to bring together every so often those folks who are spending Fedora's money directly, and make sure all is working well
16:17:44 <spevack> that we're tracking things
16:17:47 <spevack> collecting receipts
16:17:49 <spoleeba> spevack, if this can grow into a process of peer-review..like academic grant reviews in spirit....
16:17:55 <spevack> and just handling all the logistics without pain
16:19:48 <pingou> 5sec break
16:19:51 <kital> spevack: +1
16:20:13 <Southern_Gentlem> so basicly this needs to be a weekly meeting of those people with the credita cards reporting what they used the card on
16:20:14 <spoleeba> on no!
16:20:18 <spevack> So what specific things would some of you like to see?
16:20:26 <spevack> Southern_Gentlem: i think that's part of it.
16:20:26 <spevack> spoleeba: ?
16:21:03 <rbergeron> I think there are a few things I'd like to see:
16:21:09 <rbergeron> (and maybe some of these are obvious)
16:21:22 <spevack> it is good to state the obvious when beginning new ventures
16:21:35 <rbergeron> I think we're still in the stages where we're not quite sure what we may or may not do, so....
16:21:36 <Southern_Gentlem> ordering swag, sponsoring events, travel arrangements if needed
16:22:03 <spevack> Southern_Gentlem: i want to be careful not to take away discussions that are had in ambassador meetings
16:22:05 <rbergeron> I think i'd like to still see Ambassadors have decision making power over the things that concern them (events, etc),
16:22:14 <spevack> Southern_Gentlem: this sig is NOT about caring about the details of Upcoming Event
16:22:15 <rbergeron> spevack... reading my mind
16:22:33 <rbergeron> Just as with FUDCon planning, etc.
16:22:55 <spevack> Southern_Gentlem: that list of things you mention -- that's all stuff that regional ambassador teams handle
16:22:55 <rbergeron> But for other groups, like when we talk about "getting developers to conferences" and other things like that -
16:23:13 <spoleeba> netsplits during a meeting
16:23:18 <rbergeron> I want to make sure that we start thinking about (a) how do we get the word out that there are resources available
16:23:18 <spevack> this meeting would be "hey, as we balance the books, we see that we're either way under budget, way over budget, or just right in NA.  Let's discuss what to do about that..."
16:23:29 <rbergeron> (b) while not having a HOLY CRAP influx of requests for 40 zillion dollars
16:23:54 <rbergeron> (c) and make sure we have the structure and foresight to eventually pass that off to fesco, if they want it, for them to do the decision making about who goes where, and what's valuable for them.
16:24:01 <rbergeron> Same for any other team.
16:24:23 <rbergeron> I don't know that we know yet, and maybe it's a "we'll cross this bridge when we come to it" problem, what kinds of division of money we want to do.
16:24:29 <rbergeron> If any.
16:24:39 <rbergeron> If ambassador money is just going to be comingled this year with "money for others to go places."
16:24:48 <Southern_Gentlem> i am interested in this because i am working on a fudcon bid myself as well as the ambassadors stuff
16:24:49 <rbergeron> ie: IF we wanted to send someone from Docs to the GNOME hackfest.
16:25:06 <rbergeron> spevack: Am I rambling too much here?
16:25:08 <spevack> rbergeron: there is a strategic reason why we call it "Regional Support" on the budget, and not "Ambassador Money"
16:25:13 <spevack> rbergeron: no, you are not
16:25:23 * rbergeron just waits for spevack to make her statements more concise ;)
16:26:27 <rbergeron> I guess my number one fear, as always, is "what happens when we get to that day when there's not enough money to get everyone to everything they want."
16:26:28 <spevack> This is the opportunity to look at the big picture and say "ok, we've got functioning regional teams in FOO and BAR.  We've got 2 FUDCons currently being organized.  What ELSE is going on that would be a strategic use of money?  And then making sure that money exists, and isn't already spoken for."
16:26:42 <spevack> rbergeron: we ask for more :)  And we start saying no more often, until we get more.
16:27:22 <rbergeron> Here's a question:
16:27:31 <inode0> If the requests are for things that are valuable, I say bring them on and let's have that problem to deal with.
16:27:32 * kanarip in here lurking
16:27:38 <spevack> inode0: +1
16:27:49 <rbergeron> Traditionally we've gone to commarch for decisions about "where should fudcon be" in each region of the world.
16:27:55 <rbergeron> Lately, that's changed *a bit*
16:28:10 <Southern_Gentlem> at that point we can show a reason to ask for more as well
16:28:16 <rbergeron> In that I think now famsco is going to approve that? Is that correct? Or is that still kind of a joint decision?
16:28:38 <rbergeron> The reason I'm asking is - where does this group fit into that ... trifecta, if you will
16:28:41 <rbergeron> Or does it not?
16:29:02 <Southern_Gentlem> wb jef
16:29:08 <Magic8Ball> stupid netsplit
16:31:53 <spevack> rbergeron: I don't want CommArch to have anything to do, really, with that decision.
16:32:00 <rbergeron> So that's getting left in the hands of famsco and fpl.
16:32:00 <spevack> rbergeron: because the truth is I don't really care what the answer is.  Just that an answer is made.
16:32:10 <spevack> rbergeron: i said as much to jared a week or two ago regarding upcoming fudcon bid decisions.
16:32:14 <Magic8Ball> spevack, sorry netsplit ate me right before you asked for suggestions
16:32:22 * inode0 is pretty lost about where we are at the moment
16:32:37 <spevack> yeah, this meeting has kind of gone off target a bit.
16:32:38 * rbergeron is curious about what next steps are.
16:32:42 * rbergeron is also curious about where those mystical credit cards are.
16:33:11 <Magic8Ball> spevack, general comment.... I think the National Science Foundation does a really good job of being an oversite and monetary pass through org... we dont need _all_ the structure there...but the general approach would be good to look at
16:33:15 <spevack> rbergeron: finance said they'd finalize things at the start of the new fiscal year (which was March 1) as soon as they are done with all the Red Hat end of year books for the year-end financials.
16:33:20 <inode0> I just missed so much of it that I'm not sure where we are at currently
16:33:35 <spevack> inode0: we reviewed the general scope and goals of what this group wants to do.
16:33:51 <spevack> We've talked about wanting to make sure we don't "take over" decisions that are already being made well at the regional level
16:34:14 <spevack> and I talked about basically wanting to take the private work that I do every week or two to balance Fedora's books and then make that public, and start to open that process up.
16:34:42 <Magic8Ball> spevack, especially when it comes to making sure the wider scientific community...the people competing for funds...are the ones doing the choices for what to fund when things are tight
16:34:48 <Magic8Ball> spevack, and well..money is always tight
16:34:51 <spevack> The juggling of needs in different regions, different fudcons, etc.
16:35:02 <spevack> Magic8Ball: NOD
16:35:07 <spevack> oops, hit caps lock
16:35:34 <Magic8Ball> spevack, and within that there are distinct directorships... that are parallel to each other
16:35:44 <Magic8Ball> spevack, again you dont need all that structure right now..but key concepts
16:35:48 <spevack> So I guess if I think about the *next* meeting of this SIG:
16:35:48 <inode0> I will just emphasize I don't want to take over *any* decisions, but rather help other parts of the community make their own decisions in a similar way that regional groups under famsco's umbrella do now which I think works really well.
16:35:55 <spevack> inode0: yes!
16:36:03 <spevack> inode0: well said!
16:36:22 <spevack> Some of the things I would do next week in a Finance SIG meeting:
16:36:24 <Magic8Ball> spevack, so in our case...you can have directorship could be regional...or task oriented...or whatever makes sense
16:36:42 <spevack> (1) Talk through the aggregation of Fedora expenses that have happened recently, and getting things updated.
16:37:03 <Magic8Ball> spevack, so the idea is each directorite has a target budget based on over all project needs...but you still leave room for cross-directorite activities
16:37:09 <spevack> (2) Talk about any money that we know is about to be spent, and making sure that whatever team is spending that has clear knowledge of their budget and has good process
16:37:11 <Magic8Ball> spevack, if that makes sense
16:37:39 <spevack> Magic8Ball: that makes sense.
16:37:54 <spevack> I'm having a hard time expressing myself here.  To be honest.
16:37:57 <Magic8Ball> spevack, just dont make a proposal request a 70 page document...thats all i ask
16:38:00 <spevack> I think I've made my points though
16:38:50 * spevack has nothing further to say
16:38:57 <spevack> this will be a work in progress for a while
16:39:09 <rbergeron> Indeed.
16:39:37 <spevack> But I feel like even if I sit in a channel and say "now I'm doing this, now I'm filling these requests, now I'm pinging so and so who's supposed to take care of this other expense, now I'm updating these wiki pages"
16:39:50 <Magic8Ball> spevack, oversight is good ...especially if you anticipate running out of funds..funding good ideas
16:39:55 <spevack> it starts to be more clear what goes on, and how we can serve a wide percentage of Fedora's contributor base
16:40:53 <Magic8Ball> spevack, no the big question... how in the hell can people like me chip in so its not a single source funding?
16:41:27 <spevack> Magic8Ball: say that in another way, since I don't fully grok.
16:41:50 <rbergeron> I think he means "how can he donate" :)
16:41:55 <Magic8Ball> spevack, this is oversight for a single funding source ... ie RH dollars budgeted for Fedora
16:41:58 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, not donate
16:42:03 <rbergeron> Oh.
16:42:23 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, in the language of an NSF grant like construct...its a "partnership"
16:42:30 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, not a donation
16:43:19 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, where private/public/academic chip in like %10 of the cost of the proposal...which is sometimes required actually depending on the situation
16:43:54 <rbergeron> Essentially what you're asking is "how can we have more people pitching in other than red hat"
16:43:57 <rbergeron> ??
16:44:05 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, and I dont just mean individuals
16:44:30 <rbergeron> Well, we have had people/groups/companies sponsor things at other points.
16:44:40 <rbergeron> We had rackspace and google sponsor portions of FUDCon in Tempe.
16:44:47 <rbergeron> I think the folks in Panama also have some sponsors.
16:44:59 <inode0> they don't have a good vehicle to do that though in general
16:45:09 <rbergeron> I know (well, I think, anyway) that Dell has sort of partnered with us on things.
16:45:31 <rbergeron> I think that in general, if we suddenly had an overwhelming number of people wanting to work with us in manners like that, that it would be something to consider.
16:45:37 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron, but we dont have much transparency or oversight.... and no way to help people with ideas that need funds to contact with potential sponsors
16:46:09 <rbergeron> There's not much oversight needed.
16:46:14 * inode0 thinks a clearinghouse or sorts could help enable more of it
16:46:24 <rbergeron> I wanted sponsorship for FUDCon, so I contacted rackspace myself and got it arranged.
16:47:14 <rbergeron> inode0: yes, a clearinghouse would help
16:47:35 * rbergeron throws rocks at freenode
16:48:24 <spevack> ok... what else for this particular meeting?
16:48:33 <spevack> For me, followup is two things:
16:48:38 <spevack> (1) credit cards update
16:49:06 * rbergeron throws spevack a pound sign and the word "action"
16:49:31 <spevack> #action spevack update on credit cards from finance
16:49:32 <rbergeron> :D
16:49:57 <spevack> I don't know how to phrase anything else.
16:49:59 <spevack> help?
16:50:05 <spevack> #chair rbergeron Magic8Ball
16:50:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: Magic8Ball rbergeron spevack
16:50:07 <spevack> #chair inode0
16:50:07 <zodbot> Current chairs: Magic8Ball inode0 rbergeron spevack
16:50:20 <rbergeron> You said followup for you was two things.
16:50:25 <rbergeron> What's the other thing you need to follow up on?
16:50:40 <Magic8Ball> rbergeron,  action, come up with a second thing
16:51:00 <spevack> rbergeron: i couldn't figure out a way to say it
16:51:07 <inode0> overall budget picture for the new year?
16:51:50 <spevack> you look at a page like this:
16:51:51 <spevack> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_Architecture_expenses
16:52:09 <spevack> and I say "why does this SIG, or anyone not named me, care about this page"
16:52:26 <spevack> and not just the page, but the information and decisions represented by that page
16:52:57 <rbergeron> I think people care, or at least should care, about the financial resources Fedora has.
16:53:25 <rbergeron> And should be concerned that, as we scale and spend MOAR MONEY, that we're doing it responsibly, so that we can continue to butter up Max to butter up his boss... to get more money. ;)
16:53:31 <rbergeron> So that we can Get Stuff Done.
16:54:36 <inode0> I think really only ambassadors care at this point
16:54:48 <rbergeron> Yup.
16:54:59 <Magic8Ball> spevack, if the ultimate goal is buttering the purse string holders
16:55:13 <spevack> Magic8Ball: that's actually not my ultimate goal
16:55:16 <rbergeron> magic8bALL: i don't really think there is an issue with butter.
16:55:19 <spevack> because i don't think it's necessary
16:55:20 <Magic8Ball> spevack, knowing what the purse string holder likes to see in terms of a value metric would be important
16:55:46 <Southern_Gentlem> Magic8Ball,  he is trying to get where all his time isnt spent handling this stuff
16:55:49 <spevack> the purse string holder doesn't need value proven right now.  Fedora's value is clear and not doubted.
16:56:02 <spevack> I want to increase the breadth of what Fedora's money is spent on
16:56:07 <Magic8Ball> spevack, just thinking with my grantee hat on
16:56:28 <Magic8Ball> spevack, i can do excellent science..but if i dont produce...publications...it doesn't count
16:56:33 <spevack> and to make sure more people have the ability to spend that money without compromising our ability to track and transparently manage it.
16:56:52 <spevack> So I think that this meeting actually had some ok conversations.
16:56:58 <spevack> And I think I'm about ready to end it.
16:57:04 * rbergeron grins
16:57:10 <rbergeron> next meeting?
16:57:18 <spevack> Fedora Finance Friday!
16:57:26 <rbergeron> WOOT
16:57:46 * Southern_Gentlem will not be able to attend next week
16:57:54 <inode0> don't let it stop you but I do have a persistent conflict on Friday the 13ths (and all other second Fridays)
16:57:54 <spevack> Southern_Gentlem: no worries.
16:58:17 <spevack> i wonder if a mailing list is actually better than IRC for most of what this group wants to do.
16:58:46 <inode0> the big downside is no bystanders will read that
16:58:56 <Southern_Gentlem> i hate to say it but a mailing list and proable a trac would work very well
16:59:05 <spevack> I walk away today thinking "the idea here is still a good one, and keep working to transparentize things even more"
16:59:07 <inode0> there are 138 people here now and some likely quietly followed along
16:59:20 <spevack> inode0: yep.  just talking through things out loud
16:59:27 <spevack> ok
16:59:44 <spevack> I'm done here for today.  Thank you all for your time, on this still-nebulous idea.
16:59:46 <Southern_Gentlem> i am thinking as well
17:01:07 <Southern_Gentlem> spevack,  your earlier link spend==spent?
17:01:26 <spevack> yes
17:01:29 <Southern_Gentlem> ty
17:01:45 <spevack> Ok, I'll end the meeting now.
17:01:47 <spevack> Thakn you all!
17:01:50 <spevack> #endmeeting