18:00:04 <bpepple> #startmeeting cwg -- http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Community_Working_Group
18:00:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Feb  8 18:00:04 2011 UTC.  The chair is bpepple. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:11 * nirik waves
18:00:12 <bpepple> #meetingname cwg
18:00:12 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'cwg'
18:00:37 <rbergeron> hellloooooooo.
18:00:41 * red_alert is here
18:02:29 <bpepple> #info red_alert nirik bpepple rbergeron present
18:02:45 <bpepple> #topic COC Draft
18:02:57 * nirik looks over whats currently in the wiki again.
18:03:45 <bpepple> here's a link for anyone else wanting to look at it: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_working_group/Code_of_Conduct_Draft
18:03:55 <rbergeron> that's what i was looking for ;)
18:04:15 * bpepple gives folks a couple of minutes to review it.
18:04:17 * red_alert made some last minute changes...hope that's what we discussed last time
18:06:12 <bpepple> in the last sentence. s/learning/learn/
18:06:55 <red_alert> feel free to change whatever I wrote into English ;)
18:07:19 <bpepple> red_alert: no worries. I'll change it here in a sec.
18:07:27 <bpepple> anyone else have any suggestions for it?
18:08:12 * nirik isn't sure it will get us too much further than 'be excellent', but otherwise it look ok.
18:09:29 <rbergeron> I may have some grammatical nitpicking, but otherwise I agree with nirik's statement ;)
18:10:23 <bpepple> I'd go for adopting KDE COC's, but I understand other folks wish to keep it simple, so I'm fine with the proposed draft.
18:11:36 <nirik> so, whats the next steps? ask board to take a look?
18:11:38 <red_alert> bpepple: I figure we can make it more complicated if it turns out KISS doesn't work here :)
18:11:45 <bpepple> Is anyone opposed to using this for our COC? Is it time we submit it to the board or community for feedback?
18:12:02 * bpepple sees nirik asked the same thing.
18:12:22 <bpepple> red_alert: agreed.
18:12:49 <rbergeron> I think the first thing that everyone is going to ask is "how is it going to be enforced"
18:13:02 <rbergeron> so it might be smart of us to anticipate that question and actually have an answer.
18:13:14 * nirik is fine with asking the board for feedback, if it's positive there, I would like to ask for more wide community feedback (perhaps with a 'we will vote on this in x weeks, so let us know')
18:13:29 <bpepple> rbergeron: we discussed this a couple of time, we just need to put it up on the wiki.
18:13:48 <nirik> yeah, I think I might have said I would make such a thing on the wiki, but didn't get around to it. ;(
18:13:50 <bpepple> nirik: sounds good to me.
18:14:06 <nirik> My thought would be:
18:14:31 <nirik> 1) enforcement should take place first in whatever management the forum/resource has (mailing list admin, channel operator, etc)
18:15:02 <nirik> 2) if there is disagreement or issues, ask for mediation (from us? from board?)
18:15:23 <nirik> 3) buck stops somewhere, final decision is made, issue ends.
18:16:08 <nirik> but we could flesh out that before we move more on CoC if folks would prefer.
18:16:14 <ricky> Would it make sense to add a note to be mindful that people from different countries may have different speaking/writing patterns?
18:17:00 <mjg59> Wait why do I keep thinking this meeting is Thursday
18:17:11 <ricky> Seems that a lot of small misunderstandings about stuff like that adds up to people being angry with each other
18:17:42 <bpepple> ricky: not a bad suggestion.
18:17:49 <mjg59> ricky: Yes, first step should always be just to ensure it's not miscommunication
18:19:02 <bpepple> yeah, one of the blowups back in December was due to a misunderstanding about a joke.
18:19:45 <bpepple> info mjg59 present
18:19:50 <bpepple> #info mjg59 present
18:19:50 <mjg59> Which should be step 1 in the enforcement procedure
18:22:05 <bpepple> nirik: do you still want to try to put something up on the wiki in regard to the enforcement procedure?
18:22:11 <nirik> bpepple: sure.
18:22:18 * nirik is writing right now. ;)
18:22:37 <rbergeron> i think that reminding people of self-enforcement and taking responsibility upon oneself to resolve conflicts is a very good idea.
18:22:42 <bpepple> #action nirik will start putting the enforcement procedure on the wiki.
18:22:59 <rbergeron> rather than going straight to step 1 as nirik listed - look to thyself for figuring out the problem :)
18:23:09 <red_alert> rbergeron: +1
18:24:30 <nirik> yeah, perhaps you can cut off the problem before it becomes too much of one.
18:26:10 <bpepple> alright, so should we maybe plan on submitting the COC to the board next week sometime (assuming we've got the enforcement procedure draft on the wiki)?
18:26:36 <rbergeron> sure.
18:26:49 <nirik> yeah, how about we work on the enforcement and if it looks good next week, we submit it and CoC after next weeks meeting?
18:26:50 <mjg59> Sounds good
18:26:51 * rbergeron will apply some grammar lovin over the next day or two.
18:27:03 <bpepple> nirik: sounds good to me.
18:27:14 <red_alert> agreed
18:27:41 <rbergeron> +1
18:28:22 <bpepple> #action after reviewing the enforcement procedure draft, plan on submitting the COC to the Board after next week's meeting.
18:28:39 <nirik> so, if someone feels whatever place they tried to get an issue solved didn't work, where do they escalate?
18:28:43 <nirik> ie,
18:28:53 <nirik> person to person (try and solve yourself)
18:29:09 <nirik> person to forum moderator (irc op, mailing list owner, etc)
18:29:22 <nirik> where can they go from there? to us? or the board ? or ?
18:29:59 * nirik thinks someday of CWG disbanding, so not sure we want to live forever as a moderator panel.
18:30:09 <mjg59> I think us, with us referring to the board if we think there's a problem?
18:30:25 <mjg59> Where "us" is "this group", not inherently us
18:30:26 <bpepple> I would lean to us, rather than the board.
18:30:49 <red_alert> +1 "us"
18:30:58 <nirik> ok, and if they don't like our decision, they can go to the board?
18:31:09 <mjg59> Yeah
18:32:55 <red_alert> probably...not sure if the board feels like this tho
18:33:19 <nirik> well, the buck has to stop somewhere.
18:33:36 <nirik> ok, vuage and needing work outline:
18:33:38 <nirik> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_working_group/CoC_Enforcement
18:33:42 <bpepple> yeah, I'm a little leery of pushing it to the board, since I feel a lot of group push stuff to them that they really should be handling themselves.
18:33:51 <bpepple> s/group/groups/
18:34:22 <mjg59> I'd expect the board to generally defer except in especially weird cases
18:34:26 <nirik> well, if we decide that we are the place the buck stops, we should make that clear and also get the Board to bless that.
18:34:46 <rbergeron> and if the board is the place where the buck stops, we need to make sure that they want to accept that responsibility :)
18:34:46 <nirik> because if we don't, anyone who doesn't like something we decide will just default to asking the board.
18:35:27 <bpepple> right. this is something we probably need to discuss with them, possibly when the look at the COC draft.
18:35:41 * nirik nods.
18:35:45 <red_alert> yea
18:36:00 <mjg59> Sure
18:36:50 * bpepple reads nirik's draft for a second.
18:37:37 <nirik> it needs lots of work. I just wanted to throw something outline like out there.
18:38:08 <bpepple> nirik: cool, I'll give it a more serious read later today.
18:38:25 <bpepple> ok, so is there anything else to discuss this week? Or should we start to wrap it up?
18:38:34 <mjg59> I think we have a plan
18:38:35 <nirik> I think it might be good if we could add suggestions in all the areas... ie, things to try...
18:39:15 <bpepple> nirik: not a bad idea.
18:39:46 <nirik> and pointers how to contact forum maintainers, etc.
18:39:47 <bpepple> btw, did everyone get to read Spot's blog entry from today?
18:39:57 <nirik> yes. An excellent post.
18:40:03 <mjg59> Yes
18:40:08 <rbergeron> yes.
18:40:28 <bpepple> not really something actionable per say, but I thought it was worth pointing out, since I think a lot of folks feel the same way.
18:42:01 <bpepple> anyway, I think we can put a fork in this meeting, and plan on tweaking the enforcement policy before next week's meeting.
18:42:32 <nirik> sounds good.
18:42:35 <bpepple> Thanks, everyone!
18:42:40 <bpepple> #endmeeting