00:00:59 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings 00:00:59 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Nov 11 00:00:59 2010 UTC. The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 00:00:59 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 00:00:59 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs 00:00:59 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call 00:00:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs' 00:01:27 * Gearoid is here 00:01:31 * jjmcd 00:01:31 * jhradilek is here. 00:01:41 * bcotton is here-ish 00:01:59 * rudi is here 00:02:28 * nb 00:03:38 * Sparks is here 00:03:55 <Sparks> #chair jjmcd rudi bcotton Gearoid nb jhradilek 00:03:55 <zodbot> Current chairs: Gearoid Sparks bcotton jhradilek jjmcd nb rudi 00:05:19 <Gearoid> wow, lots of chairs! 00:05:26 <Sparks> and no tables 00:05:28 <Sparks> Hmmm 00:05:33 <Sparks> Okay, lets get started 00:05:44 <Gearoid> #table Sparks 00:05:55 <jhradilek> Heh. 00:05:58 <Sparks> wow 00:06:11 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items 00:06:20 <jhradilek> I would fall of my chair if that actually worked. 00:06:32 <Sparks> #action Sparks to add creating and publishing links to the Docs wiki page 00:06:40 <Sparks> Sparks to bring to the Docs list the subject of a replacement for him for Docs Project lead. **Completed** 00:06:48 <Sparks> nb to get the Bugzilla owners.list sync script fixed to use git. 00:07:08 <nb> Sparks, tis done 00:07:21 <nb> /git/docs/owners.git 00:07:21 <Sparks> awesome 00:07:35 <Sparks> rudi to add "get a bugzilla component" to the "Creating a new Guide" page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_a_new_guide 00:07:50 <rudi> Not done -- I need to talk to you about that after the meeting 00:07:58 <rudi> (and organise a new BZ component as well) 00:08:16 <Sparks> #action rudi to add "get a bugzilla component" to the "Creating a new Guide" page http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Creating_a_new_guide 00:08:19 <Sparks> rudi: No problem 00:09:05 <Sparks> Okay, that's all the old business... moving on 00:09:15 <Sparks> #topic Docs Project leader elections 00:09:23 <Sparks> #info Voting to take place on 17 November. 00:09:30 <Sparks> Just a little history here 00:10:19 <Sparks> When I took this position a couple of years ago I told everyone that I'd offer up my seat every November just after the release to see if there was anyone else that wanted to have the job 00:10:57 <Sparks> It is usually a good thing to get new people in with new ideas. 00:12:07 <Sparks> I've tried to run the Project by letting other people's ideas be used simply because I don't, and won't ever, have all the answers nor will all the answers I have be correct. 00:12:39 <Sparks> So with that being said, is there anyone that would like to nominate someone or would like to volunteer for this position? 00:12:51 <bcotton> point of clarification 00:13:10 <Sparks> bcotton: Go 00:13:29 <bcotton> sparks: are you willing to continue service as docs lead, or do you prefer to abdicate? 00:14:10 <Sparks> I am willing to continue 00:14:20 <nb> jhradilek, lol when they said #table i should have made the bot say that it added him as a table 00:14:27 * jjmcd 00:14:57 <Sparks> jjmcd: You have something to say? 00:15:05 <jjmcd> Some additional history 00:15:37 <jjmcd> Before Sparks took this on, these meetings were held erratically, went on forever, and rarely accomplished anything 00:15:58 <jjmcd> The only doc we routinely got out was the release notes, and they were a mad scramble requiring many all nighters 00:16:13 <jjmcd> The whole nature of the team has changed 00:16:32 <jjmcd> And I don't think its a bad change either ... but 00:16:49 <jjmcd> like Eric says, new people mean new ideas and more improvement 00:17:12 <jjmcd> And just because you don't feel like you're an old timer doesn't mean you aren't qualified 00:17:24 <jjmcd> New blood is a good thing 00:17:29 <jjmcd> </rant> 00:18:09 <Sparks> jjmcd: Thanks for those kind words... 00:18:58 <jjmcd> Personally, I would like to see Zach and/or Ben try it 00:19:10 <Sparks> So... anyone want to volunteer or else next week's vote is going to be crazy boring 00:19:17 <jjmcd> But Zach isn't here to defend himself 00:19:43 <jhradilek> I may sound stupid, but where is the vote going to take place? 00:19:46 <Sparks> Yeah, I think Zach is on an odd schedule? He mentioned something about voting at 2AM or something 00:20:12 <nb> Sparks, do we want to use the voting system/ 00:20:13 <nb> ? 00:20:19 <Sparks> jhradilek: Well... If we actually do have folks to vote on I'll ask for a ballot system be setup for this election like we do for everything else. 00:20:35 <Sparks> nb: Yeah, that was my thought... that way you don't have to be present to vote. 00:21:11 <jjmcd> nb, typically we have trouble drawing suckers ... errr ... candidates 00:21:24 <Sparks> heh 00:23:31 <Sparks> Okay then. 00:23:42 <Sparks> I'm not sure if that's a vote of confidence or a vote of "not me" 00:23:42 <Sparks> :) 00:23:54 <bcotton> sparks: the former, for sure 00:24:23 <Sparks> heh 00:24:50 <Sparks> Okay. I'll take this to the list just to make sure there isn't someone that didn't attend tonight's meeting that might want to run. 00:25:20 <Sparks> #action Sparks to bring nominations up to the Docs list to make sure everyone has a chance to volunteer. 00:25:50 <Sparks> Okay... moving on, then. 00:26:06 <Sparks> #topic Publishing Documentation to the desktop 00:26:27 <jjmcd> Comment on this 00:26:31 <Sparks> Okay 00:26:40 <Sparks> jjmcd: Perhaps we should talk about what we are talking about 00:26:59 <jjmcd> The documents on docs.fp.o have embedded Javascript. We will draw plenty of bugs if that isn't fixed first 00:28:17 <jjmcd> I did file a bug, which needs a response right now, but I don't see that being fixed any time soon 00:28:27 <jjmcd> needs a response from me that is 00:28:40 <rudi> jjmcd -- what's the problem exactly? 00:28:55 <rudi> The site is designed to fall back gracefully if there's no JS 00:29:08 <jjmcd> Many people are violently opposed to enabling javascript 00:29:24 * Sparks was thought this topic was something different 00:29:24 <rudi> Yeah, and the site falls back gracefully for them 00:29:30 <jjmcd> Not only does Publican include js in published docs, but there is no alternative 00:29:44 <jjmcd> Not the site, the docs 00:29:48 <jjmcd> seems new in 2.3 00:29:59 <rudi> No -- was introduced in 2.0 IIRC 00:30:09 <rudi> And it only affects the navigation iframe 00:30:16 <jjmcd> No it doesn't 00:30:29 <rudi> ? 00:30:32 <jjmcd> If I recall (and I could be wrong) in 2.0 it was only navigation 00:30:43 <jjmcd> But there is JS embedded in every document 00:30:51 <rudi> Yes 00:31:01 <rudi> There has been since 2.0 00:31:15 <rudi> and then (and now) it only affects the iframe embedded in the doc 00:31:28 <rudi> If you have JS turned off, it does not affect the presentation of the doc at all 00:31:36 <rudi> Only the presententation of the iframe 00:32:12 <Sparks> jjmcd: Okay, are we still talking about providing links to the docs from the desktop? 00:32:12 <jjmcd> I think that is correct. So a null <noscript> paragraph would correct it 00:32:27 <jjmcd> Sparks, yes. and i think we know how to do that 00:32:44 * jhradilek just tried to access docs.fedoraproject.org with Elinks, and it offered me a static Table of Contents as an alternative. 00:32:45 <jjmcd> it;s just that if you don't have js turned on it gets ugly 00:33:07 <Sparks> Okay 00:33:15 <jjmcd> I got a left panel full of error messages trying to access individual dox 00:33:33 <Sparks> Okay 00:33:41 <rudi> jjmcd -- access them where? 00:33:59 <jjmcd> firefox I think 00:34:11 <rudi> but where were the docs? 00:34:17 <jjmcd> could have been seamonkey or galon when i tried it 00:34:30 <rudi> on d.fp.o? 00:34:39 <jjmcd> Seems like it was the rn's. Can't recall why i tripped on it tho 00:34:57 <jjmcd> I think so, but to tell the truth,I can't remember why I did it 00:34:59 <rudi> You will get a left panel full of error messanges when the browser can't find the relevant toc.html 00:35:10 <rudi> But that's got nothing to do with JS 00:35:19 <rudi> To ilustrate: 00:35:28 <jhradilek> Works fine with Firefox to me... I mean, it isn't exactly the pretiest page I have ever seen, but it serves its purpose. 00:35:33 <jjmcd> Haven't worked on the desktop all in a few weeks and this was in the dash to get the RNs packaged 00:35:33 <rudi> Build any doc locally with the --embedtoc option 00:36:02 <rudi> Now look at the doc; it will show you the panel full of errors, whether you have JS turned on or now 00:36:04 <rudi> *not 00:36:15 <rudi> ....because there's no ToC to embed... 00:37:05 <Sparks> So the plan was to somehow provide links to the documents from the desktop so people could easily find documentation. 00:37:46 <Sparks> Providing links to docs.fp.o means that we wouldn't have to package and ship all the different languages and versions of the guides 00:38:04 <jjmcd> Yeah, and I remember having that working 00:38:11 <Sparks> But the problem was generating the links and updating the links whenever something changed on the website. 00:38:18 <jjmcd> So perhaps I was looking at something separate from docs.fp.o 00:38:45 <rudi> jjmcd -- yeah, if it wasn't on d.fp.o or d.rh.c you would see that panel o' error 00:39:56 <Sparks> jjmcd: did we ever come up with a plan for generating the links? 00:40:19 <rudi> Note also this bug -- mapped to local storage 00:40:23 <Sparks> I think we were hoping this could be added to Publican some how. 00:40:24 <rudi> oopes :) 00:40:31 <rudi> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=647352 00:40:33 <jjmcd> Sparks, not really. For now, simply rebuilding the RPM updates the links, but if we could access the db online we wouldn't need that 00:40:46 <Sparks> Yes 00:41:12 <Sparks> and perhaps we could have a copy of the db put in the public_html/ directory on the server to facilitate this. 00:41:15 <rudi> jjmcd -- Publican 2.3 can do an XML dump of the site contents 00:41:23 <rudi> Sparks ^^^ 00:41:25 <jjmcd> online? 00:41:28 <rudi> Yeah 00:41:35 <rudi> Specifically for use cases like this 00:42:06 <Sparks> I have a question, though. 00:42:10 <rudi> So we just need to figure out how to parse that 00:42:48 <Sparks> By forcing people to get this information off the Internet we are failing those that don't/won't have access to the Internet to have local documents. 00:43:07 <Sparks> rudi: Can we sit down after the meeting and talk about this more? 00:43:27 <rudi> Sparks: sure. I still think the Holy Grail is to be able to build, package, and ship the docs 00:43:46 <rudi> And I think the barrier to that will descrease after we automate the publishing-to-the-web process 00:43:58 <Sparks> Yeah... 00:43:59 <rudi> *decrease 00:44:14 <Sparks> Okay, let's talk about this more after the meeting and report back to the list. 00:44:43 <Sparks> #action Sparks, rudi, and jjmcd (and anyone else that would like to attend) to discuss building docs for the desktop 00:44:49 <Sparks> Okay, let's move on as time is getting short. 00:45:03 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes 00:45:08 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule 00:45:19 <Sparks> jjmcd: How are things going with the RNs? 00:45:22 <jjmcd> RPM with translations went out, still need to publish translations 00:45:46 <jjmcd> That's it. As soon as the new translations are published we're mostly done this cycle 00:45:53 <Sparks> Cool 00:45:57 <jjmcd> excepting any bugs of course 00:46:11 <Sparks> Awesome job to you and everyone that worked on the RNs this cycle. 00:46:18 <jjmcd> I had lotsa help 00:46:44 <Sparks> the key to success 00:46:56 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status 00:47:29 <Sparks> Um... 00:47:37 <Sparks> So is everyone ready for F15? 00:47:38 <Sparks> :) 00:47:42 * jjmcd 00:47:48 <Sparks> go ahead 00:48:07 <jjmcd> Does anyone remember the ImageMagick stuff to fix pics for Publican? 00:48:22 <jjmcd> Been dragging my feet so I don't have to reinvent it 00:48:28 <rudi> Hang on ;) 00:49:00 <jjmcd> I thought it was on the wiki but I searched and found nada 00:49:08 <rudi> for i in *.png; do `convert $i PNG32:$i`; done 00:49:18 <jjmcd> cool, thanks 00:49:27 <rudi> FOP 1.0 is coming soon; maybe they've fixed it ;) 00:49:40 <jjmcd> Ive added some images to ARG 00:49:48 <jjmcd> want to do that before publishing 00:49:52 <Sparks> perhaps that should be put on the wiki? 00:50:09 <rudi> Probably the PUG actually 00:50:28 <Sparks> PUG? 00:50:31 <Sparks> Oh 00:50:37 <Sparks> Publican Users Guide 00:50:45 * jhradilek is taking notes, because he did not know about that trick. 00:51:01 <Sparks> jhradilek: See what happens when you hang around with smart people? 00:51:10 * Sparks learns things from rudi and jjmcd every day 00:51:14 <rudi> I'll open a bug 00:51:39 <rudi> jhradilek -- it's to work around a bug in FOP that flips colour channels in 24-bit PNGs 00:51:43 <jjmcd> jhradilek, follow climagic on identi.ca - lots of way cool stuff 00:52:27 <rudi> jhradilek -- if you see images in PDF docs that have funky colours, you know you've hit it :) 00:52:58 <Sparks> Okay, I have a goal for F15... to resurrect the Documentation Guide 00:53:04 <jhradilek> rudi, jjmcd: Cheers! 00:53:39 <Sparks> Okay, anything else? 00:53:46 <rudi> Ah -- any resurrection attempts need -- http://www.strangehorizons.com/2004/20040405/badger.shtml 00:53:52 * Sparks notes we are running short on time. 00:54:20 <jhradilek> rudi: What the... 00:54:33 <Sparks> don't ask 00:54:48 <Sparks> :) 00:54:53 <jhradilek> :-) 00:54:57 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion 00:55:03 <Sparks> Okay, anyone have anything? 00:55:16 * bcotton 00:55:27 <Sparks> bcotton: Go ahead 00:56:35 <bcotton> I just want to thank bethlynn ke4qqq and quaid for their work setting up and running the Fedora BoF at LISA last night. we had many tens of people show up for discussion and playing with live CDs 00:57:01 <bcotton> eof 00:57:04 <Sparks> Awesome. 00:57:07 <Sparks> I have something... I'd like to thank everyone who authored text, changed a bit, translated a word, edited and QA'd documentation, fixed scripts, worked on the tools we use, and did anything else to get all of our documentation ready for F14. We did a great job this release. 00:57:18 <rudi> . 00:57:23 <Sparks> rudi: go 00:57:40 <rudi> and thank you Sparks for your direction and leadership :) 00:57:55 <rudi> Sorry too that we RHatters didn't really pull our weight on F14 00:58:04 <rudi> I hope today you can maybe understand a little why :) 00:58:35 <Sparks> rudi: Oh I knew what was happening and after today's release I can only imagine what was happening. 00:58:45 <jjmcd> Seems like we had a ton of new folks who chipped in, many in timezones that prevent them being here 00:58:54 <Sparks> rudi: Congrats on a successful release of RHEL 6... 00:59:00 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yes 00:59:16 <jjmcd> Great to see that - RHEL6 as well as the new folk 00:59:17 <Sparks> rudi: And you RHatters always pull your weight and then some. 00:59:18 <rudi> Thanks; we're pretty excited right now :) 01:00:31 * Sparks can hardly wait to see what 6 looks like on one of my servers! 01:00:46 <Sparks> Okay... unless someone has something else... we'll be closing. 01:01:50 <Sparks> Thanks everyone for coming! 01:01:51 <Sparks> #endmeeting