05:01:43 <juhp> #startmeeting i18n
05:01:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Sep  2 05:01:43 2010 UTC.  The chair is juhp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
05:01:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
05:01:55 <juhp> #meetingname i18n
05:01:55 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'i18n'
05:02:13 <juhp> welcome to the weekly i18n meeting
05:02:16 <tagoh> hi
05:02:19 <dueno> hi
05:02:37 <juhp> hi
05:03:54 <fujiwarat> hi
05:04:15 <paragan> hi
05:05:11 <pravins> hi
05:05:37 <juhp> ok
05:05:45 <juhp> better get started :)
05:06:12 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/I18N/Meetings/2010-09-02
05:06:16 <juhp> is the agenda page
05:06:22 <juhp> #topic F14
05:06:45 <juhp> F14 beta is looking fairly good currently I think
05:06:52 <juhp> overall I mean
05:07:20 <juhp> change/devel freeze starts 14th
05:07:57 <juhp> I updated the docsbeat a bit
05:08:05 <juhp> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Documentation_I18n_Beat
05:09:05 <fujiwarat> Looks geat. thx.
05:09:19 <juhp> after the beta freeze all updates for dist-f14 need releng approval I guess - it is also the deadline for version changes
05:09:42 <dychen_> hi
05:09:50 <juhp> In two weeks there is the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2010-09-16_AnacondaTranslationKeyboard
05:10:01 <juhp> which I kind of signed myself up for...
05:10:13 <juhp> though I am probably not in the right geo...
05:10:42 <paragan> ok
05:10:42 <juhp> 3 target bugs cc i18n-bugs currently
05:10:59 <epico_laptop> hi
05:11:32 <jni> hi
05:11:45 <juhp> anything else for F14?
05:11:53 <juhp> we are quite close to the beta
05:12:33 <juhp> #topic splitting zh comps
05:12:48 <juhp> I think we discussed this before so forgive me for tabling it again...
05:13:03 <juhp> I am thinking again it would be better to split zh comps if possible
05:13:55 <juhp> I think we kind of shot it down before, but I am thinking if anaconda could support multiple locales for langgroups it might still work
05:14:17 <juhp> and it makes a lot of sense IMHO looking at the Chinese lang group
05:14:36 <juhp> almost complicate package duplication
05:14:40 <juhp> erm complete
05:14:57 <juhp> what do you think?
05:15:17 <juhp> I could file an anaconda rfe and see what happens if we think it is a good idea
05:15:36 <juhp> ping epico_laptop, dychen_, jni !
05:16:41 <dychen_> juhp, quite a lot of them are common.
05:17:00 <juhp> like?
05:17:25 <dychen_> juhp, IMHO, how about three, chinese(common), chinese(simp), chinese(trad
05:18:05 <juhp> doesn't work with current comps/anaconda
05:18:20 <dychen_> juhp, ibus, stardict, goldendict, are example for chinese(common).
05:18:29 <juhp> dychen_: any common packages could go in both
05:18:39 <epico_laptop> maybe it can reduce packages needed to install.
05:18:49 <juhp> dychen_: ibus?
05:18:56 <epico_laptop> not very sure about this.
05:19:03 <juhp> ok stardict is not really zh specific
05:19:33 <juhp> dychen_: it is ok to duplicate across groups where appropriate
05:19:55 <dychen_> juhp, then I have no further questions then. :-)
05:20:00 <juhp> epico_laptop: right
05:20:20 <juhp> for me the main problem is reducing duplication of langpacks
05:20:42 <juhp> I guess most zh users only want SC or TC langpack not both
05:20:54 * epico_laptop think so.
05:21:14 <juhp> so SC would be zh_CN only ?
05:21:29 <epico_laptop> yes.
05:21:34 <juhp> all other zh_* TC?
05:21:58 <epico_laptop> zh_sg is SC?
05:22:03 <juhp> so problem is having one group for all TC zh locales
05:22:07 <juhp> epico_laptop: ah perhaps
05:22:41 <dychen_> epico_laptop, Yes.
05:22:42 <juhp> ok let's see what anaconda team says - not sure they will like it
05:22:54 <juhp> though actually might be yum too not sure
05:23:21 <dychen_> epico_laptop, But I quite doubt how many people actually use zh_sg/ zh_ml.
05:24:17 <juhp> hmm yeah less common perhaps
05:24:23 <juhp> okay thanks
05:24:33 <epico_laptop> I can't choose zh_SG in gdm greeting screen, assume it need manually specify it?
05:24:39 <juhp> well no zh_ML in glibc anyway :)
05:24:54 <juhp> epico_laptop: probably no transtions?
05:24:59 <juhp> la
05:25:00 <epico_laptop> dunno
05:25:23 <juhp> epico_laptop: gdm filters out locales without translations anyway
05:25:34 <epico_laptop> I see.
05:25:53 <juhp> so yeah maybe zh_SG less of an issue
05:26:12 <juhp> anyway there is still zh_TW and zh_HK for TC
05:26:38 <juhp> though not sure how many projects have zh_HK...
05:26:46 <juhp> anyway let's move on :)
05:27:14 <juhp> #topic bug stats
05:28:36 <juhp> rawhide: 42 bugs (+5); 19 NEW (+1)
05:28:37 <juhp> F14: 29 bugs (-7); 15 NEW (-3)
05:28:51 <juhp> rawhide up a bit and f14 down :)
05:29:54 <juhp> let me update f13 and f12 presently
05:30:30 <juhp> #topic IM
05:30:48 <juhp> yesterday we had the Bugs Day
05:30:59 <juhp> paragan: thanks for organizing
05:31:07 <paragan> welcome
05:31:22 <paragan> we got some bugs updated now :)
05:31:40 * juhp had hoped for a bit more participation but we reduced the bug count a bit and triaged quite a lot
05:31:46 <juhp> yeah
05:32:16 <juhp> hm ah maybe I should have moved into IM section: so we may do another later for fonts?
05:32:18 <paragan> so remaining bugs I see few abrt and few feature request bugs.
05:32:31 <juhp> aha right
05:32:39 <juhp> (shouldn't)
05:32:41 <paragan> I will check to request for detail input to reproduce abrt
05:32:46 <paragan> bugs
05:32:51 <juhp> ok
05:33:26 <pravins> i think bugs days with testing will help may b
05:33:27 <juhp> down to 36 bugs which is not too bad :)
05:33:28 <pravins> be
05:33:33 <juhp> yeah
05:33:48 <juhp> maybe we can do the fonts one after beta released
05:33:52 <pravins> so users can also contribute little more
05:34:02 <juhp> aha
05:34:05 <pravins> yeah, font is really required one
05:34:23 <pravins> whenever i see some bugs for font, while checking for it i found so many other
05:34:29 <pravins> not reported for long time
05:34:42 <pravins> so pulling people for testing fonts will help lot to improve font quality
05:35:03 <juhp> okay
05:35:16 <juhp> yeah getter testers is the hard part
05:35:33 <juhp> at least now bodhi encourages more testing before release :)
05:35:35 <pravins> and having all expert same time can quickly decide which is fonts and which is rendering engine problem
05:35:43 <juhp> right
05:36:28 <juhp> any IM topics to discuss?
05:36:34 <juhp> I have a couple actually
05:37:57 <juhp> I have been looking a bit more at key compose under gtk (XIM, gtk-im-context-simple, ibus) but not come to conclusion yet
05:38:23 <juhp> though currently might be leaning towards making XIM default again for most locales like we/I did for F13
05:39:05 <juhp> though gnome Desktop team like gtk-im-context-simple
05:39:19 <juhp> going to compare the rules to get a better picture
05:39:35 <juhp> not sure what rules ibus uses
05:40:04 <juhp> fujiwarat: tried asking before ^
05:40:21 <juhp> fujiwarat: but more importantly wanted to discuss about xkb support in ibus 1.3.7
05:40:33 <juhp> which I am not quite getting :)
05:40:52 <fujiwarat> Currently I'm thinking migration of gtk-xim to an ibus engine.
05:41:22 <juhp> fujiwarat: I think that only works if you make that engine the off state
05:42:14 <fujiwarat> Currently ibus engine off is same as gtk-im-context-simple.
05:42:15 <juhp> though I am increasingly thinking that the MacOS IME toggling switching UI is the right one
05:42:28 <juhp> fujiwarat: ah I see
05:43:00 <juhp> fujiwarat: how about the xkb layout support in 1.3.7?
05:43:14 <juhp> there are a lot of layouts now in the config
05:43:23 <juhp> fujiwarat: is that from google?
05:44:11 <fujiwarat> Yes, it shows some layouts.
05:44:27 <juhp> we can also discuss more in detail afterwards - just don't feel it is quite right yet perhaps
05:44:37 <fujiwarat> The default is:
05:44:39 <fujiwarat> XKB_PRELOAD_LAYOUTS=""\
05:44:39 <fujiwarat> "us,us(chr),ad,al,am,ar,az,ba,bd,be,bg,br,bt,by,"\
05:44:39 <fujiwarat> "de,dk,ca,ch,cn,cn(tib),cz,ee,epo,es,et,fi,fo,fr,"\
05:44:39 <fujiwarat> "gb,ge,ge(dsb),ge(ru),ge(os),gh,gh(akan),gh(ewe),gh(fula),gh(ga),gh(hausa),"\
05:44:39 <fujiwarat> "gn,gr,hu,hr,ie,ie(CloGaelach),il,"\
05:44:41 <fujiwarat> "in,in(ben),in(guj),in(guru),in(jhelum),in(kan),in(mal),in(ori),in(tam),"\
05:44:43 <fujiwarat> "in(tel),in(urd-phonetic),in(bolnagri),iq,iq(ku),ir,ir(ku),is,it,jp,"\
05:44:45 <juhp> some is an understatement :)
05:44:47 <fujiwarat> "kg,kh,kr,kz,la,latam,lk,lk(tam_unicode),lt,lv,ma,ma(tifinagh),mal,mao,"\
05:44:49 <fujiwarat> "me,mk,mm,mt,mv,ng,ng(hausa),ng,ng(igbo),ng(yoruba),nl,no,no(smi),np,"\
05:44:51 <fujiwarat> "pk,pl,pl(csb),pt,ro,rs,ru,ru(cv),ru(kom),ru(sah),ru(tt),ru(xal),"\
05:44:53 <fujiwarat> "se,si,sk,sy,sy(ku),th,tj,tr,ua,uz,vn"
05:44:55 <fujiwarat> Sorry, long output.
05:45:00 <juhp> thanks
05:45:15 <juhp> only Latin layouts?
05:45:59 <fujiwarat> No, it includes ru, e.g.
05:46:06 <juhp> aha
05:46:11 <juhp> no kana say?
05:46:24 <nkumar> hi
05:46:32 <fujiwarat> Yes, the default doesn't include kana.
05:46:40 <juhp> why? :)
05:46:57 <juhp> trying to understand the criteria for listing :)
05:47:07 <fujiwarat> Ah, I have no specific reasons.
05:47:12 <juhp> hm
05:47:49 <fujiwarat> Showing all layouts is too many so I just reduced some layouts by default.
05:47:54 <juhp> if it was me I would almost do the opposite first - only list non-Latin layouts...
05:48:37 <juhp> anyway looks good start :)
05:49:04 <juhp> fujiwarat: also seems several places one can add layouts
05:50:03 <fujiwarat> ? sorry, where can add layouts?
05:50:14 <juhp> well 2 maybe
05:50:24 <paragan> fujiwarat, I see some button in ibus-setup "Configure Layouts"
05:50:26 <juhp> I mean as IME and layout perhaps
05:50:43 <juhp> I am not clear on the distinction
05:50:48 <paragan> fujiwarat, does it also adds IME?
05:50:54 <fujiwarat> Are, one is to add layouts to default another is to delete layouts from default.
05:51:24 <juhp> aha
05:51:49 <paragan> can Configure Layouts button be renamed to Delete Layouts?
05:51:57 <juhp> ok I'll play bit more with it and maybe have some suggestion
05:53:02 <fujiwarat> I mean the configure layouts has two button 'add' and 'delete'.
05:53:14 <juhp> right
05:53:26 <juhp> layout is different to IME?
05:53:34 <paragan> oh
05:53:41 <fujiwarat> Yes, it's same.
05:53:56 <fujiwarat> No, it's same.
05:54:00 <juhp> so why the button?
05:54:18 <juhp> filter?
05:55:02 <juhp> there is also System Layout
05:55:20 <fujiwarat> Yes, the default layouts list is included in engine lists. And the configure button customize the default layout list.
05:55:42 <juhp> aha
05:56:07 <juhp> maybe I need to play with it more - feel like that button is a bit superfluous
05:56:27 <juhp> or perhaps I am missing the whole picture :)
05:56:51 <juhp> fujiwarat: thanks
05:57:01 <juhp> perhaps we should move on?
05:57:04 <fujiwarat> I agree. Any ideas are welcome.
05:57:10 <juhp> ok cool
05:57:31 <juhp> fujiwarat: so better to drop it? :)
05:57:48 <juhp> or not list layouts in IME list?
05:58:05 <juhp> hm
05:58:16 <juhp> but then they can be ordered
05:58:19 <fujiwarat> OK, let me think it.
05:58:20 <juhp> can't
05:58:26 <juhp> sure
05:58:36 <juhp> #topic Fonts
05:58:45 <juhp> running short of time
05:59:02 <juhp> any fonts issues today to discuss?
05:59:58 <nkumar> I wanted to discuss .bug 624158
06:00:16 <nkumar> . bug 624158
06:00:18 <zodbot> nkumar: Bug 624158 Idea for setting individual fallback language - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=624158
06:00:46 <juhp> sure
06:01:19 <juhp> nkumar: so any more thoughts?
06:01:35 <nkumar> there is a file /etc/profile.d/lang.sh
06:02:08 <nkumar> if we patch it something like this:
06:02:10 <nkumar> if [ -n $LANG ]; then
06:02:10 <nkumar> case $LANG in
06:02:10 <nkumar> hi*) export LANGUAGE=hi_IN:bn_IN ;;
06:02:10 <nkumar> bn*) export LANGUAGE=bn_IN:bn:hi_IN ;;
06:02:10 <nkumar> esac
06:02:11 <nkumar> fi
06:02:22 <juhp> tagoh: btw did we include mozc in comps yet? :)
06:02:52 <juhp> nkumar: yeah that is going to be a big patch...
06:03:00 <nkumar> yep
06:03:11 <tagoh> juhp: no not yet. I was about to do that - not even in stable though
06:03:17 <juhp> cool
06:03:20 <juhp> ah
06:03:23 <juhp> sure
06:03:37 <nkumar> because though it has a line: [ -n "$LANGUAGE" ] && export LANGUAGE || unset LANGUAGE
06:03:42 <juhp> just occurred to me :)  (I could test it:)
06:03:51 <juhp> aha
06:04:01 <nkumar> it is never set
06:04:13 <juhp> never? :)
06:04:29 <juhp> well I agree better than just hardcoding for system loacle
06:04:31 <nkumar> actually I am not sure
06:04:31 <juhp> locale
06:04:48 <nkumar> 3 more solutions
06:04:54 <fujiwarat> Probably $HOME/.i18n could override the setting.
06:05:04 <nkumar> but they require changes in gettext or glibc
06:05:04 <juhp> actually I forget if we still owner ~/.i18n properly
06:05:57 <juhp> the other solutions?
06:06:12 <nkumar> change in dcigettext.c
06:06:23 <juhp> nkumar: how about asking drepper for advice on the glibc side - I am sure it has probably come up before...
06:06:56 <nkumar> in function guess_category_value
06:06:57 <nkumar> yep
06:07:13 <nkumar> guess_category_value
06:07:26 <juhp> aha
06:07:55 <juhp> from our pov glibc would be best I feel but dunno if they consider it an acceptable change
06:08:08 <juhp> if not only way seems to be to do it at the OS level
06:08:10 <nkumar> yep there was a bug which may be of relevence https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=372151
06:08:30 <juhp> .bug 372151
06:08:32 <zodbot> juhp: Bug 372151 /etc/sysconfig/i18n locale settings not propagating into X session - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=372151
06:09:07 <juhp> I think that is a different story - but looks like good summary by jakub
06:09:48 <juhp> ah ok it talks about LANGUAGE
06:09:56 <nkumar> yep
06:10:22 <juhp> anyway
06:12:11 <juhp> I think we are out of time unless any other matters need attention
06:12:43 <nkumar> This is taking time : https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/2360
06:13:22 <juhp> nkumar: you could try asking #fedora-admin
06:13:29 <juhp> not sure if it is possible
06:13:47 <juhp> alternative would be add new project and delete old perhaps
06:14:07 <nkumar> ok, should I make a fresh request
06:14:17 <juhp> or use github for now or something ;)
06:14:25 <juhp> I dunno better to ask first
06:14:29 <nkumar> ok :)
06:15:07 <nkumar> ok then I will put it on github or gittorios
06:16:39 <juhp_> ok thank you for the meeting!
06:16:47 <nkumar> thanks
06:17:19 <juhp_> now wonder if I can close ;)
06:17:40 <juhp_> #endmeeting
06:18:50 <juhp> #endmeeting