23:00:19 <Sparks> #startmeeting Docs Project Meeting - Agenda: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings
23:00:19 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Aug 25 23:00:19 2010 UTC.  The chair is Sparks. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00:19 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:00:19 <Sparks> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:00:19 <Sparks> #topic Roll Call
23:00:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:00:25 * nb 
23:00:35 * jjmcd 
23:00:38 * crantila 
23:01:06 * Sparks .
23:01:15 * gjkrpan43 is here
23:01:41 * bethlynn is here
23:02:01 * rudi is here
23:03:28 <Sparks> Okay, lets get started.
23:03:32 <Sparks> #topic Follow up on last week's action items
23:03:52 <Sparks> frostbite: you here?
23:03:57 <frostbite> yes
23:04:24 <Sparks> Have you been working with Gearoid on the Accessibility Guide?
23:04:34 <Sparks> frostbite will help Gearoid with screen readers
23:04:38 <frostbite> no I just took a look at it today
23:04:43 <Sparks> okay
23:04:53 <Sparks> #action frostbite will help Gearoid with screen readers and the Accessibility Guide
23:05:00 <Sparks> jjmcd to touch bases with rrix and nathant and make sure we are all good with release announcement
23:05:14 <jjmcd> sbergeron stepped up since rrix was busy
23:05:23 <Sparks> okay
23:05:25 <jjmcd> stickster helped, but in the ens
23:05:26 <jjmcd> end
23:05:39 <jjmcd> the changes were tiny/  nathant did an awesone job
23:05:48 <Sparks> excellent
23:06:13 <Sparks> jjmcd to check on/update/expand process page that bethlynn worked on
23:06:20 <jjmcd> no progress this week
23:06:33 <Sparks> #action jjmcd to check on/update/expand process page that bethlynn worked on
23:06:41 <Sparks> #  rudi to get with nb and discuss correct place for translation drafts
23:06:42 <jjmcd> _ .._
23:06:50 <Sparks> rudi to get with nb and discuss correct place for translation drafts
23:06:52 <rudi> .
23:07:06 <nb> Sparks, oh, the staging site
23:07:09 <rudi> So we apparently do already have a stage in place
23:07:10 <rudi> Yeah
23:07:11 <nb> we are trying to come up with a way that docs-writers can only publish to a particular branch
23:07:15 <bethlynn> sparks: last week it was decided that we needed to add beat writing to the workflow
23:07:28 <Sparks> jjmcd: ._.
23:07:28 <rudi> The other alternative was to use a branch of the existing repo
23:07:49 <nb> i'm -1 to making another repo, unless docs thinks it is critical
23:07:50 <rudi> But that would mean that docs-writers could publish to the live site as well
23:07:52 <bethlynn> I saw I would be happy to help but that would have to wait until late september if I am to own that
23:07:52 <nb> making another branch is fine
23:07:58 <rudi> But I don't think that could happen accidentally
23:08:05 <rudi> so I'm not sure it's a big deal
23:08:05 <jjmcd> Just so we can easily automate it
23:08:14 * nb suggests making master as staging and making a separate tag or branch for live
23:08:22 <jjmcd> I don't see a huge problem with continuing to use groups/docs
23:08:29 <Sparks> bethlynn: Okay
23:08:32 <rudi> and we could revisit the permissions once we get full automation down the track
23:09:00 <rudi> I think a branch rather than a tag would fit better with our current workflow (which is all branch-based)
23:09:31 <rudi> So the question is: does anyone have a problem with giving docs-writers this permission?
23:09:41 * nathant apologises for lateness
23:09:43 <jjmcd> rudi, given that we update nightly, a tag might work better
23:10:03 <rudi> jjmcd -- how so?
23:10:15 <rudi> (this doesn't mean a separate branch for each night)
23:10:34 <jjmcd> Think about the work process.  Moving the results into a separate branch means a bunch of dancing around.  I think a tag could just be moved
23:10:38 <rudi> (it just means there's an entirely separate branch of the repo where all these builds go)
23:10:47 <gjkrpan43> as a new doc/beat writer, I think that having the ability to immediately update the live site might not be in the best interest of the site.  I think there should be some sort of review in place to ensure that what is getting posted is accurate and appropriate
23:11:02 <rudi> I don't know what you're moving?
23:11:08 <jjmcd> Yes, so update po, build, copy, branch copy
23:11:29 * crantila agrees with gjkrpan43, for what it's worth... even to check for mistakes
23:11:43 <rudi> jjmcd - ah, no, we're talking about a branch of web.git, not a branch of the books
23:12:13 * Sparks wonders if this discussion could take place at a better time in the meeting.
23:12:19 <rudi> Sure sorry :)
23:12:20 <jjmcd> OK, so instead of doing an scp, I do a clone, copy, push?
23:12:29 <jjmcd> Yeah, prolly right Sparks
23:12:45 <Sparks> Okay
23:12:53 * jjmcd was munging up the repos in his head
23:12:54 <Sparks> rbergeron: ping
23:12:56 <Sparks> rbergeron to circle back with rrix on the alpha announcement
23:13:16 <jjmcd> Like I said earlier, rrix was tied up
23:13:17 <jjmcd> .
23:13:28 <Sparks> Well yeah...
23:13:34 <Sparks> but what did rbergeron do?
23:13:35 <Sparks> :)
23:13:36 <jjmcd> but it hardly mattered since stickster, rbergeron, jsmith coulnd't find much
23:13:45 <Sparks> yeah
23:13:49 <Sparks> okay, moving on
23:13:58 <Sparks> #topic F14 Release Announcement
23:14:19 <Sparks> So this is on the calendar, correct?
23:14:29 <jjmcd> this is done
23:14:31 <Sparks> We have the Alpha, Beta, and final, right?
23:14:38 <jjmcd> No, just the alpha
23:14:48 <Sparks> Who does the others?
23:14:48 <jjmcd> That was yesterday
23:15:02 <jjmcd> Oh, we do them.  We have only completed alpha
23:15:07 * Sparks remembers hearing something about Alpha
23:15:13 <jjmcd> actually, I think release may be k mktg only
23:15:35 <jjmcd> or mktg/design
23:15:58 <Sparks> #action Sparks to talk with rbergeron about who will handle the Release Announcements
23:16:10 <jjmcd> Sparks, consider including mo
23:16:12 <jjmcd> .
23:16:21 <Sparks> #undo
23:16:21 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x8dc5fd0>
23:16:36 <jjmcd> in the past, seems like design ends up doing the final announcement even tho they are never on the schedule
23:16:45 <Sparks> #action Sparks to talk with rbergeron and mo about who will handle the Release Announcements
23:16:48 <Sparks> jjmcd: Yeah
23:17:18 <jjmcd> Might as well not dump it on them at the last minute
23:17:31 <Sparks> yes
23:17:36 <Sparks> okay, moving along
23:17:46 <Sparks> #topic Release Notes
23:17:50 <Sparks> jjmcd: What say you?
23:17:57 <jjmcd> OK, not a whole lot to report ...
23:18:06 <jjmcd> NathanT did a nice job on the Alpha RNs ...
23:18:19 <jjmcd> Good progress on the beats - lots of new contributors ....
23:18:31 <crantila> jjmcd: what's a good "due date" for the beats?
23:18:35 <Sparks> Are those RNs getting pushed to RPM?
23:18:36 <jjmcd> Probably next week we will want to make the branch
23:18:43 <jjmcd> Not the alpha
23:18:48 <jjmcd> it is a wiki page
23:18:54 <Sparks> ok
23:18:55 <jjmcd> beta will
23:19:11 <jjmcd> .
23:19:31 <jjmcd> I have a readable schedule linked to the beats page and have been updating it with progress.
23:19:33 <jjmcd> .
23:19:41 <Sparks> link?
23:19:55 <jjmcd> I think we will need to branch in the coming week and start working on the conversion shortly
23:19:57 <jjmcd> qrx
23:19:57 <jjmcd> .
23:20:39 <jjmcd> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Release_Notes_schedule
23:20:50 <Sparks> awesome
23:21:09 * GadgetWisdomGuru knows he is late
23:21:25 <jjmcd> We could stand to have another crash on the unclaimed beats next week early
23:21:38 <jjmcd> Unfortunately, I won't be around Tuesday which would be the perfect time
23:21:56 <Sparks> jjmcd: There's always Monday!
23:22:04 <jjmcd> yep
23:22:12 <Sparks> Okay, anything else?
23:22:16 <Sparks> GadgetWisdomGuru: Welcome
23:22:16 <jjmcd> nope
23:22:40 <Sparks> #topic Do we still need a CMS?
23:23:02 <Sparks> I'm not sure we're actually getting anywhere with this topic.
23:23:27 <jjmcd> +1 to dumping it
23:23:52 <Sparks> Can we call this closed and just accept that if we find that we need something else we'll work on it?
23:24:04 <nathant> +1
23:24:19 <rudi> +1
23:24:27 <GadgetWisdomGuru> Sparks, sorry. I've been missing these meetings, and I figured some was better than none.
23:24:58 <Sparks> some?
23:25:08 <nb> +1 to dumping it
23:25:19 <Sparks> +1
23:25:48 <jjmcd> GadgetWisdomGuru, No Prob.  We're almost all volunteers here.  Real life has a way of interfering.
23:26:03 <nb> I have a clarification about the website, am I correct in believing that we are #agreed that we will use docs-writers as able to push to all branches of docs/web.git until another solution is found, and that we will use either a branch or tag for the live site, and master will be staging?
23:26:19 <nb> or do we want to use master as live and a separate staging branch (that's how we do in infrastructure for our puppet repo)
23:26:35 <nb> Sorry for asking this at the wrongtime in the meeting
23:27:03 <Sparks> #agreed that we don't need a CMS right now
23:27:17 <jjmcd> nb, I thought we said we would head-scratch that outside the meeting
23:27:20 <Sparks> nb: What's the topic here that you want to discuss?
23:27:26 <nb> oh sorry, i must have missed that
23:27:34 <nb> jjmcd, that's fine with me
23:27:37 * Sparks is lost
23:27:53 <jjmcd> Sparks, nb was going back to publishing drafts
23:27:56 <nb> Sparks, k, nevermind i'll discuss it in #fedora-docs after the meeting
23:28:09 <Sparks> nb: If you and jjmcd and whomever else want to talk after the meeting, do so and then take it to the list.  We can put it on the meeting agenda for next week if needed
23:28:34 <Sparks> #topic Publican
23:28:47 <Sparks> rudi: What's the good word?  Anything new coming up?
23:28:58 <nb> xmlgraphics-commons is now branched for el5, i'll build it hopefully tonight
23:29:02 <nb> or rlandmann has acls on it now too
23:29:12 <Sparks> rudi: Oh, and did the latest version of Publican make it into RHEL 6?
23:29:15 <rudi> Still packaging -- thanks to nb one of the last obstacles is now gone
23:29:32 <rudi> Sparks -- I'm not sure yet, still waiting on that
23:29:56 <rudi> nb -- I just built xmlgraphics -- was just about to request it for testing :)
23:30:26 <rudi> So we're tracking along nicely
23:30:38 <Sparks> awesome
23:30:42 <rudi> One last dep depends on the owner getting back from vacation
23:31:19 <rudi> Other than that, I think we do need to make a decision about the web.git permissions issue to implement an interim stage
23:32:12 <Sparks> ok
23:32:32 <Sparks> anything else?
23:32:40 <rudi> Not from me
23:32:49 <Sparks> okay
23:33:01 <Sparks> #topic Guide Status
23:33:09 <Sparks> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_guide_goals_for_F14
23:33:40 <Sparks> Anyone have anything they want to talk about in regards to guides?
23:34:32 <nathant> nothing from me
23:34:34 * Sparks was hoping Gearoid would be here tonight.
23:34:47 <Sparks> Okay... moving on
23:34:51 <Sparks> #topic Outstanding BZ Tickets
23:34:59 <Sparks> #link http://tinyurl.com/lbrq84
23:35:27 <Sparks> #info 91 open bugs
23:35:56 <Sparks> Anyone have anything on any bugs/tickets?
23:36:27 <Sparks> #topic Open floor discussion
23:36:40 <Sparks> Anyone have anything?
23:36:48 <jjmcd> Yeah, afraid so
23:37:03 <jjmcd> We probably should be considering an upgrade guide
23:37:13 <crantila> +1
23:37:14 <jjmcd> Although perhaps it is a chapter of the release notes
23:37:20 <crantila> -1
23:37:29 <Sparks> crantila: So you are now at 0
23:37:36 <jjmcd> What people need is something that warns them of anything they need to change
23:37:44 <crantila> +1 to guide, -1 to it being a chapter of the RNs
23:37:49 <Sparks> jjmcd: I thought that was the entire RNs
23:37:51 <Sparks> crantila: heh
23:37:52 <jjmcd> Like will they have to update their apache script
23:38:18 <jjmcd> RNs spend a lot of time on what is new/changed.  What YOU have to do is scattered throughout
23:38:35 <jjmcd> Trouble is, I'm not sure we always know
23:38:38 <Sparks> jjmcd: So we just want to compile that into one guide
23:38:45 <jjmcd> Seems like it
23:39:00 <crantila> it would be nice to have a definitive, lengthy explanation of pros and cons of the ways to upgrade, too
23:39:03 <rudi> radsy has written a similar doc for RHEL6
23:39:14 <rudi> Of course, we call it a "Migration Guide"
23:39:27 <jjmcd> crantila, yeah, trouble is locating the source material
23:39:39 <rudi> In principle, I think it's a great idea
23:39:49 <Sparks> oooo  Migration Guide
23:39:58 <rudi> But like jjmcd is saying -- it's a tall order unless we get significant developer input
23:40:03 <Sparks> Well seems like a good idea
23:40:05 <jjmcd> Something we should consider.  I just don't know how we would uncover the content
23:40:18 <rudi> Sparks -- so our issue is that RH doesn't support "upgrading" from one RHEL release to another
23:40:26 <Sparks> We need to put out there that if there are changes like that that we have a place for them to put that information
23:40:35 <rudi> But I think that's the normal path for many Fedora users
23:40:38 <jjmcd> Although, we probably could enumerate the common culprits
23:40:55 <rudi> So "Migration" might be less appropriate here
23:41:31 <jjmcd> I think the person who brought it up used the word migration
23:41:51 <jjmcd> But I couldn't talk him into filing a bug so I don't know who he was
23:42:05 * Sparks yum upgrade s all his systems
23:42:06 <rudi> To me, Migration implies migrating your stuff from one installation to another, fresh installation
23:42:44 <jjmcd> But even on a fresh installation, you would like to rescue your old httpd.conf, e.g.
23:42:53 <Sparks> We can call it whatever...  but I think it's important to have a place to put this
23:43:06 <Sparks> jjmcd: Do you want to take this to devel@ ?
23:43:26 <jjmcd> I can try.  I'm not a frequent poster there so I tend to get ignored
23:43:43 <jjmcd> But you know, even a wiki page would be a good thing, maybe better than a doc
23:43:55 <nathant> i'm slightly concerned we have too many guides
23:43:59 <Sparks> Yep
23:43:59 * jjmcd was thinking doc, but ...
23:44:12 <Sparks> nathant: As long as we have maintainers...
23:44:47 <nathant> i mean, for a new user, they turn up and they can choose from a live image guide, an installation guide, now a migration guide...
23:45:15 <jjmcd> Yeah, another reason for migration to be on the wiki
23:45:31 <nathant> nice to have the choice if you know exactly what you want to do, but perhaps for others a little confusing!
23:45:43 <jjmcd> Of course, then you have the "Migrating from Windows" guide
23:46:21 <Sparks> We need a START HERE --> note
23:46:39 <jjmcd> Yes, exactly
23:46:58 <nathant> yes, with different starting points for different kinds of users
23:46:59 <rudi> That's the sort of thing that needs to be on the landing page
23:47:06 <rudi> So blame me for that :)
23:47:11 <rudi> Or better, file a bug :)
23:47:24 <nathant> ok, i'll file
23:47:47 <Sparks> heh
23:48:19 <rudi> I don't think that more guides is a problem; but we just need to clarify where people should start
23:48:32 <rudi> Most of the titles are pretty self-explanatory...
23:48:38 <crantila> *most*
23:48:48 <crantila> you have to know what the title means
23:49:08 <rudi> Well, if the title's not self-explanatory, then there might be a problem with the title
23:49:30 <rudi> or the title might accurately communicate that this is a highly-specialized topic
23:49:31 <crantila> agreed
23:50:11 <nathant> but what would you call a live image guide for someone who doesn't know what a live image is?
23:50:48 <rudi> exactly
23:50:54 <crantila> given that I'm not entirely sure what a live image is, I don't know... but that's just an example
23:51:09 <Sparks> If you don't know what a live image is you probably wouldn't be looking for the guide
23:51:12 <crantila> anyway, we're now totally off course
23:51:21 <rudi> Yeah :)
23:51:28 <Sparks> but if you did stumble on the guide then you'd see the one line summary
23:51:55 <rudi> And the abstract straight underneath that
23:53:56 <nathant> Sparks: ah but maybe you'd want to find out how to try Fedora without replacing your current installation
23:54:14 <nathant> even if you didn't know that you could do that using a live image
23:54:25 <Sparks> nathant: That should be in the abstract
23:54:37 <crantila> nathant: exactly, but that doesn't belong in the docs website... maybe
23:54:50 <crantila> that you can do that is more like marketing?
23:55:06 <nathant> Sparks: but you have to click on the right guide to get the abstract
23:55:18 <nathant> crantila: maybe
23:55:34 <nathant> but do new users go to marketing first or docs?
23:55:40 <Sparks> nathant: Well, I don't think it's a good idea to rename the guide for a single purpose
23:56:02 <Sparks> If it's in the abstract then it's searchable
23:56:17 <nathant> Sparks: that's why rudi suggested a note on the landing site informing different types of users which guide they should start with
23:56:40 <crantila> new users give up :P
23:56:44 <nathant> E.g. "New users who want to try Fedora should start with the Live Image Guide"
23:56:56 <rudi> It's a pity we had to lose the search box :(
23:56:57 <Sparks> nathant: Yeah, that would also be a good topic for a FAQ
23:57:15 <rudi> It really cripples the site
23:59:05 <nathant> rudi: it's still much easier to browse for stuff than the old site
23:59:20 <Sparks> Okay, anything else before we close?
23:59:25 <rudi> nathant -- thanks :)
23:59:50 <Sparks> Okay, thanks everyone!
23:59:54 <Sparks> #endmeeting