20:59:40 <brunowolff> #startmeeting
20:59:40 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jul 12 20:59:40 2010 UTC.  The chair is brunowolff. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:59:40 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:59:53 <brunowolff> #meetingname spins-sig
20:59:53 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'spins-sig'
21:00:06 <brunowolff> #chair brunowolff,nirik
21:00:06 <zodbot> Current chairs: brunowolff nirik
21:00:07 * nirik is here.
21:00:37 <brunowolff> #topic Who's here?
21:00:49 <brunowolff> Anybody else here for Spins SIG?
21:01:25 * nirik was hoping for a bit more turnout. oh well.
21:01:41 <brunowolff> OxF13, did you want to talk about spins at GA release now or wait for the next releng meeting?
21:02:16 <brunowolff> On the plus side, by tomorrow we should have heard from all of the recurring spin owners.
21:02:40 <brunowolff> #topic GA release
21:02:41 <nirik> did you hear anything from huff?
21:02:59 <brunowolff> I have a liveCD irc meeting tomorrow that he is running.
21:03:08 <nirik> ah, cool.
21:03:10 * maxamillion is here
21:03:16 <brunowolff> I'll ask him before or afterwards what is intentions are.
21:03:37 <nirik> sounds good.
21:03:54 <brunowolff> The releng meeting last Friday didn't happen, because Jesse had some outside issues that prevented him from making the meeting.
21:04:19 <brunowolff> There may be a make up meeting or we may just need to wait until Friday.
21:04:51 <nirik> ok
21:04:59 <brunowolff> With the poor response of our Spin Owners, I estimate that that we will likely drop or delay publishing a spin if we make
21:05:35 <brunowolff> publishing an ISO require affirmation from the spin owners that the RC ISOs work.
21:05:48 <nirik> yeah, could be.
21:05:57 <nirik> I wish we could get better/faster feedback...
21:06:21 <brunowolff> We need to make sure we know what to do if that happens. This could involve the Design Team as they have wiki pages for the spins.
21:07:02 <brunowolff> I think we will likely only get a few days for them to review and report back. But jesse will have a better idea about that.
21:07:32 <nirik> yeah, we could drop the requirement that it's a spin owner...
21:07:34 <brunowolff> Once I talk to them I am plan on emailing the rules to the mailing list and the listed spin owners.
21:07:38 <nirik> ie, _someone_ tests it.
21:07:57 <brunowolff> Well I assume delegates are allowed, but it really shouldn't be us.
21:09:02 <brunowolff> I think at one time QA was looking at doing it, but they don't have the manpower and we haven't developed test plans.
21:09:49 <brunowolff> I expect the spins wrangler will act as liason, but we'll see what releng (especially Jesse) wants.
21:10:02 <nirik> yeah
21:10:34 <brunowolff> Assuming noone else volunteers I do that. I should be in a quiet time for stuff other than spins then.
21:11:20 <brunowolff> Spins SIG has failed the last two (at least) releases and Jesse has done what he could to get things out.
21:11:29 <fenris02> once the spins take place, it's not difficult to have a few testers for htem
21:11:33 <brunowolff> I am hoping we look better this time around.
21:12:19 <brunowolff> It depends on how much spin specific testing needs to be done.
21:12:51 <fenris02> boot, check for avcs, fire up the apps that it is centering on and validate that they actually do run, etc..
21:13:01 * nirik nods.
21:13:05 <fenris02> what else do you need tested?
21:13:06 <brunowolff> If QA wants to help with some basic sanity testing, then maybe that's good enough. Though I would prefer an owner to check at least
21:13:18 <nirik> there's often not much time for that after final compose and before release, but it should be possible.
21:13:24 <brunowolff> one version of their spin to make sure special stuff works reasonably.
21:13:54 <brunowolff> We don't have test plans for the spin specific stuff.
21:14:10 <brunowolff> Does QA have generic test plans for live CDs?
21:14:38 <brunowolff> Could we have them execute those on the live images to make sure they boot and the like?
21:14:54 <fenris02> do all the spins have an 'install' option, or only some?
21:15:10 <brunowolff> It looks like there will be 8 or 9 ISO spins this time around. Do they have time to test all of those?
21:15:12 <maxamillion> fenris02: I think they all have an install option
21:15:20 <maxamillion> or should
21:15:31 <brunowolff> The ones that we make ISOs for should.
21:16:33 <fenris02> they take a bit longer to test.  how many testers exist for these 8-9 spins?
21:16:42 <brunowolff> I don't know.
21:17:12 <brunowolff> Releng might have some ideas. But maybe after talking to releng, I'll need to talk to QA.
21:17:22 <brunowolff> It's a pretty busy time for QA though.
21:17:33 <fenris02> indeed.
21:17:59 <brunowolff> Spins SIG has no testing resources other than the spin owners.
21:18:10 <brunowolff> And I am not too sure about them.
21:18:23 <wwoods> we do have test plans for all kinds of things
21:18:31 <wwoods> with detailed test cases
21:18:47 <wwoods> you are welcomed and encouraged to execute them using your spins
21:19:15 <brunowolff> Does QA have the resources to do some sanity testing on 8 or 9 live images for GA?
21:20:23 <brunowolff> I am not convinced that the owners are going to actually do tests of RCs at GA.
21:21:04 <brunowolff> If QA did some sanity testing I'd worry less about letting those go through even if the Spin Owners fail to do their job.
21:21:25 <brunowolff> If it's on the Spin Owners, then we probably need to be more hard nosed.
21:21:51 <wwoods> brunowolff: no
21:22:02 <brunowolff> But that also means having a real plan to cancel (or delay) spins at the last minute, since it is likely to happen.
21:22:10 <brunowolff> Thanks.
21:22:18 <wwoods> QA does not have the resources to test the spins. It's up to spin owners to find testers.
21:22:35 <wwoods> we provide test plans, test cases, test tools, documentation, guidelines, assistance, etc.
21:22:39 <wwoods> manpower, sadly, is up to you
21:22:44 <brunowolff> I appreciate that.
21:23:15 <brunowolff> I am kind of down on Spin Owners lately, because they seem to think they just have to provide ks files and everything else
21:23:19 <brunowolff> happens by magic.
21:23:59 <nirik> yeah. ;(
21:24:28 <brunowolff> Well, I think we have gotten some useful stuff out in the open, but we should probably move on. I'll have more after I get releng's expectations.
21:24:30 <wwoods> probably the simplest way to find the test *cases* right now is to look at old test *results* and follow the links back from there
21:24:54 <wwoods> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Desktop_Acceptance_Test_Cases
21:25:01 <wwoods> is probably the most interesting set of test cases
21:25:32 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will dig up some test case pointers well before GA so that spin owners can be directed to them.
21:25:51 <fenris02> should be a place to record the results of those for each spin as well.
21:26:05 <wwoods> there's also the l10n tests: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_13_l10n_Results_Template
21:26:19 <wwoods> for test results you'll want to use the corresponding results template
21:26:26 <wwoods> and fill in the blanks as documented in the wiki page
21:26:43 <brunowolff> #link  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Fedora_13_l10n_Results_Template
21:26:54 <brunowolff> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Desktop_Acceptance_Test_Cases
21:27:17 <brunowolff> #info probably the simplest way to find the test *cases* right now is to look at old test *results* and follow the links back from there
21:27:19 <wwoods> see also http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Create_Install_Test_Result_Page
21:27:31 <brunowolff> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Create_Install_Test_Result_Page
21:27:48 <wwoods> I know there's a results template page for the desktop cases somewhere but I can't find it
21:28:27 <wwoods> aha: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_results_template
21:28:39 <brunowolff> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Desktop_validation_results_template
21:28:42 <wwoods> should have looked at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:QA_Templates
21:29:13 <wwoods> anyway, hope that helps - feel free to ask in #fedora-qa or on fedora-test-list if you need help setting up results pages, finding templates, etc
21:29:15 <brunowolff> Thanks a lot, that will save me some searching and gave me some ideas that I might not have thought of.
21:29:23 <wwoods> also fedora-test-list might not be a bad place to ask for test assistance
21:29:33 <brunowolff> #info  anyway, hope that helps - feel free to ask in #fedora-qa or on fedora-test-list if you need help setting up results pages, finding templates, etc
21:29:47 <brunowolff> #info also fedora-test-list might not be a bad place to ask for test assistance
21:29:58 <brunowolff> #topic meego
21:30:28 <brunowolff> nirik, you said you changed things for moblin to meego, but i didn't see it changed in the nightlies yet?
21:30:33 * nirik saw stickster's note on the list about that.
21:30:38 <brunowolff> Is it too early or is there a problem?
21:30:44 <nirik> brunowolff: it was changed sunday, todays composes all failed.
21:31:09 <brunowolff> OK, then we don't need to worry about that.
21:31:19 <brunowolff> (Well about meego.)
21:31:31 <brunowolff> #topic spin submissions
21:31:47 <brunowolff> Tomorrow is the deadline for spin submissions
21:31:59 <nirik> yep.
21:32:07 <nirik> looking like no new ones this cycle.
21:32:14 <brunowolff> I looked at spins in development, and only two seemed like they might request new spins.
21:32:35 <brunowolff> One just started in the last week and I really doubt they will shoot for F14.
21:33:03 <nirik> the music guys?
21:33:08 <brunowolff> The other is Dan Walsh's which needed some changes to livebase that maybe wouldn't be a good idea.
21:33:40 <brunowolff> We haven't had those changes seriously reviewed and unless someone does, I don't think his can be included.
21:34:10 <nirik> wasn't someone going to look into it for us?
21:34:17 * nirik can't recall who tho
21:34:25 <brunowolff> He does have a version on live journal that doesn't need our livebase, so maybe delayign this isn't a huge deal.
21:35:00 <brunowolff> The music guys mentioned they had some nonfree stuff, so I don't think we are going to have to worry about those guys.
21:35:06 <nirik> yeah. ;(
21:35:32 <brunowolff> I don't like not doing stuff for Dan, because he is very good at jumping on stuff for other people.
21:35:52 <nirik> yep. So the version on his journal doesn't require changes in livebase?
21:36:19 <brunowolff> I don't know who is even a good person to do the review. I am not at that level now. I don't have time to get to that level this release.
21:37:04 <brunowolff> I don't believe it does or he has an alternate livebase there. He said something about needing to tweak things if livebase changed.
21:37:27 <brunowolff> So it's not ideal, but will let people experiment.
21:37:47 <brunowolff> I think he probably wanted a ks only, no ISO.
21:37:53 <fenris02> nirik, no, but only because he used %post to remove all the things anaconda did
21:38:07 <nirik> ah, ok, so a revert hack.
21:38:44 <brunowolff> Anything other than those two would be a surprise.
21:39:07 <nirik> perhaps we can ask him to clarify that and repost his patches?
21:39:30 <brunowolff> I have set up the release page for spins with all 11 spins from F13 with 9 marked as getting ISOs and all needing Spins SIG approval.
21:40:08 <brunowolff> It would have been better to have had some up for approval already so we didn't need to do a bunch at once, but since they are
21:40:43 <brunowolff> all recurring it probably won't be too bad. Probably I'll report all minor changes to the ks files at the next meeting or two and we
21:40:50 <brunowolff> can rubberstamp them.
21:41:20 <brunowolff> MeeGo might be a bit more on our end, but the rest probably aren't doing anything major.
21:41:44 <nirik> yeah, there are not many if any xfce changes this cycle.
21:41:45 <brunowolff> I didn't get through all of the spin wiki pages thsi past week.
21:42:04 <brunowolff> I did some prep work, and got a couple done.
21:42:39 * nirik put the xfce one in the right category I hope
21:42:49 <brunowolff> My plan is to finish up this week and set them all to Spins Ready For Wrangler where the owner has said they plan to continue.
21:43:00 <brunowolff> Then I'll start looking at ks changes.
21:43:22 <nirik> sounds great!
21:43:26 <brunowolff> I hope to have at least a few we can approve at the next meeting.
21:43:30 * nirik really appreciates brunowolff working on this.
21:44:08 <brunowolff> I'll update the release page as we approve them. We shouldn't fail to produce any spins because that page is messed up this time around.
21:44:18 <brunowolff> I appreciate your support.
21:45:04 <brunowolff> You are even busier than I am, but if it was just me I would have given up on the SIG and we probably would be doing any additional spins.
21:45:51 <brunowolff> Hopefully if we get some stuff better documented it will be easier for more owners to help out.
21:45:55 <nirik> yeah, long term we need a better setup or something.
21:46:36 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will continue reviewing spin wiki pages this week
21:46:57 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will have at least a few spins up for approval next week.
21:47:34 <brunowolff> #action brunowolff will eventuall write up spin leader and spin owner documents similar to the spin wrangler document.
21:47:58 <brunowolff> The spin owner one might try to make people feel guilty.
21:48:23 <brunowolff> #topic spin-kickstart commit messages
21:48:33 <nirik> yeah, a spin owner responsibilities might be good to have.
21:48:37 <brunowolff> I got a commit bounce yesterday.
21:48:59 <nirik> oops. ;(
21:49:13 <brunowolff> I think we either need to suggest that committers also subscribe under their project address or we should whitelist
21:49:27 <nirik> I'm happy to whitelist, but I need to know what to whitelist.
21:49:28 <brunowolff> all *@fedoraproject.org addresses for the spins list?
21:49:40 <brunowolff> What do you think?
21:49:50 <nirik> well, we could try that I guess. might result in spam from people who forge those addresses tho.
21:50:36 <nirik> shall we try and see how it goes?
21:50:39 <brunowolff> I wouldn't expect a significant amount of spam sent to the spins list from fedoraproject.org addresses. If they went to that much
21:50:56 <brunowolff> trouble they'd subscribe to the lists and spam away.
21:51:01 <nirik> perhaps.
21:51:24 <brunowolff> Why don't we try that and see how it goes. I think that is less ongoing work.
21:51:57 <brunowolff> Otherwise we can document subscribing under the other address and not having messages sent to it.
21:52:06 <nirik> ok, can do.
21:52:21 <brunowolff> But that will probably generate ongoing questions as new people get added.
21:52:39 <nirik> humm...
21:52:46 <brunowolff> #action nirik will whitelist *@fedoraproject.org addresses for the spins list.
21:53:13 <brunowolff> New topic hmm?
21:53:13 <nirik> brunowolff: looks like kanarip is the owner of the list, let me check with him and make me or us owners too? there are some requests pending I see.
21:53:48 <nirik> ie, if we moderate instead of bounce we can add people to whitelist.
21:53:49 <nirik> as needed.
21:53:54 <brunowolff> Yeah, though I'll try to stay away from it so that I don't turn off reply-to munging and start another flame war.
21:54:40 <nirik> ok, I can get it sorted.
21:54:46 <brunowolff> I think that will be even more ongoing work. And it will be on people who are already pretty busy,
21:55:12 <brunowolff> Is that list holding email for moderation now?
21:55:59 <brunowolff> I'd rather handle one off requests for whitelisting than do continual moderation.
21:56:08 <nirik> yes, it is.
21:56:22 <nirik> I already deal with a number of lists, one more isn't that big a deal to me.
21:56:24 <brunowolff> Is anyone actually reviewing the email?
21:56:30 <nirik> I just moderate them in the morning each day.
21:56:41 <nirik> no idea... kanarip is listed as the owner...
21:57:35 <brunowolff> OK, if you are already doing that and it's not too bad, than whitelisting as needed is viable, but I'd rather you weren't the one doing that.
21:57:36 <nirik> anyhow, I will sort it out.
21:57:43 <brunowolff> OK, thanks.
21:58:14 <brunowolff> #topic membership list
21:58:45 <brunowolff> We're almost out of time and have covered the important stuff, but I wanted to check for objections for having removed the
21:58:55 <nirik> yeah, I think it was pretty old.
21:59:10 <brunowolff> membership list from the wiki page, since it didn't seem to reflect the membership.
21:59:45 <fenris02> is there any advantage to having the list public rather than the ml ?
21:59:54 <brunowolff> I didn't add anything back, since we aren't getting good participation and I don't know that we have much use for the list
21:59:58 <brunowolff> anyway.
22:00:25 <brunowolff> Pretty much the wrangler and the lead (if we get a new one) are the only people that should get contacted directly.
22:00:31 <nirik> yeah.
22:00:38 <nirik> everything else should be 'mail the list' ;)
22:00:53 * fenris02 nods
22:01:07 <brunowolff> I am not sure there is much correlation between the mailing list and active members.
22:01:35 <brunowolff> As long as noone was looking for my head, I'll just leave it.
22:01:48 <brunowolff> #topic other topics
22:02:01 <brunowolff> Anything else anyone wants to discuss/
22:02:08 <brunowolff> ?
22:02:10 * nirik has nothing.
22:02:25 <brunowolff> Ending in 30 ...
22:02:40 <brunowolff> Thanks for coming guys, next week we should get to do some voting.
22:02:56 <nirik> cool.
22:03:03 <nirik> thanks for running things brunowolff !
22:03:06 <brunowolff> I'll take care of sending out the notes.
22:03:14 <brunowolff> #endmeeting