14:59:56 <jlaska> #startmeeting Fedora QA Meeting
14:59:56 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jun 28 14:59:56 2010 UTC.  The chair is jlaska. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:59:56 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:59:59 <jlaska> #meetingname fedora-qa
14:59:59 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora-qa'
15:00:02 <jlaska> #chair kparal
15:00:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: jlaska kparal
15:00:11 <jlaska> #topic Gathering critical mass
15:00:21 * jskladan steps out of the shadows :)
15:00:38 * kparal looks around
15:00:55 * wwoods puts down his beer^Wcoffee
15:00:59 <jlaska> jskladan: kparal: greetings
15:01:03 <jlaska> wwoods: it's noon somewhere :)
15:01:05 <hicham> i d highly suggest to add the eds mess
15:01:12 <hicham> to the agenda
15:01:13 * Viking-Ice stands since there are no chairs left!
15:01:20 <wwoods> hicham: why, exactly, is that a QA problem?
15:01:46 <hicham> wwoods: i think it is qa problem, since updates are now broken
15:01:47 <jlaska> hicham: you're welcome to bring up any QA suggestions related to that build during open discussion
15:02:14 <wwoods> hicham: yes, but we already have plans for tests in place to keep that sort of thing from happening
15:02:35 <hicham> wwoods: ah ok, thanks
15:02:37 <wwoods> in the meantime it's still up to developers to *not* mess up the deps in the repos
15:02:49 <wwoods> and they keep doing it
15:02:54 <wwoods> this does not change our plans any
15:03:02 <wwoods> nor is it our fault that it keeps happening
15:03:03 <adamw> morningalydoodly
15:03:06 <jlaska> hicham: for offline reading enjoyment ... https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Package_Update_Acceptance_Test_Plan
15:03:09 <jlaska> adamw: welcome
15:03:14 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: lurking?
15:03:23 <Viking-Ice> Yup
15:03:25 <jlaska> hey there
15:03:48 <jlaska> alrighty, let's get movin'
15:03:58 <wwoods> I completely understand the frustration though
15:04:10 <jlaska> I'm going to breeze through the follow-up items ... I've got details on most of them ...
15:04:19 <jlaska> #topic Previous meeting follow-up
15:04:24 <jlaska> #info adamw to forward wwoods a good explanation of the nss-softokn problem scenario to ensure autoqa catches it in future
15:04:30 <jlaska> #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000703.html
15:04:44 <jlaska> next up ...
15:05:05 <jlaska> wwoods: you were out last week, so surprise, I added an agenda item for you!
15:05:13 <wwoods> haa
15:05:14 <jlaska> queue the balloons and streamers
15:05:26 <wwoods> hooray! lucky winner!
15:05:28 <jlaska> wwoods: dunno if you have any updates, since this might be the first you saw of it ...
15:05:34 <jlaska> #info wwoods to evaluate nss-softokn dependency problem for proper 'depcheck' coverage
15:05:58 <wwoods> I don't recall the explanation of the exact dep problem
15:06:29 <jlaska> wwoods: we can follow-up on autoqa-devel list ... checkout the description adamw sent (see previous #link)
15:06:40 * skvidal recalls
15:06:47 * adamw re-assigned all his work to wwoods and went golfing
15:06:50 <skvidal> the nss-softokn thing was just a multilib issue iirc
15:06:51 <adamw> check your to-do list
15:07:05 <hicham> x86_64 version was older than i686 one
15:07:07 <skvidal> ie: the lib didn't get auto pulled in as multlib by mash for the update
15:07:14 <skvidal> but it did get pulled in for the GA
15:07:19 <skvidal> hicham: right
15:07:19 <jlaska> I think the only action here is to review whether this is something depcheck would have captured
15:07:21 <adamw> skvidal: as jlaska says i already sent a description to autoqa-devel list
15:07:27 <skvidal> adamw: sorry
15:07:30 <adamw> npnp :)
15:07:48 <jlaska> wwoods: okay taking this to the list?
15:07:54 <wwoods> yeah, that's fine
15:07:55 * jlaska has Michael McDonald in his head now
15:08:01 <jlaska> wwoods: thx
15:08:08 <jlaska> next up ...
15:08:11 <jlaska> #info Viking-Ice will start 'how to debug systemd problems' guide and send to list for review
15:08:16 <wwoods> quick summary: we'll want to write test case for that situation - and all the other common "your repos asplode" problems
15:08:29 <Viking-Ice> yup have started to work on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/QA/Systemd#Quick_Debugging_Tips
15:08:33 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: I see you've already got quite a bit of content
15:08:41 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Johannbg/QA/Systemd#Quick_Debugging_Tips
15:08:47 <j_dulaney> Crap, was in the head too long
15:09:08 <jlaska> jskladan: welcome :)
15:09:40 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: very nice ... anything you want to follow-up with next week ... or should we stay tuned to test@ mailing list
15:09:49 <Viking-Ice> We hit a bit of snag at work this last week so the work got a bit halted + I still have not contacted Lennart about several things.
15:10:03 <Viking-Ice> I will post the page for the list for review once I'm done
15:10:15 <jlaska> Viking-Ice: awesome, thanks again for tackling this
15:10:26 <Viking-Ice> has releng got any plans on when we will switch to use systemd by default
15:10:29 <jlaska> up next ...
15:10:32 <jlaska> #info robatino to ask infrastructure team to archive previous RCs/TCs
15:10:37 <jlaska> #link http://fedorahosted.org/fedora-infrastructure/ticket/2241
15:11:23 <jlaska> I haven't seen any updates on this yet, we may wish to reach out to infrastructure@ list also
15:11:31 <jlaska> next ...
15:11:34 <jlaska> #info jlaska to review F14 test day wiki content
15:11:52 <jlaska> Nothing earth shattering here, just priming the wiki content for F14 test days
15:11:55 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Fedora_14_test_days
15:12:11 <jlaska> If anyone has ideas or suggestions, feel free to write them down on the talk page -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Talk:QA/Fedora_14_test_days
15:12:23 <jlaska> next ...
15:12:25 <jlaska> #info jlaska to create a ticket about possible enhancement/new test case for ABI stability check
15:12:30 <jlaska> #link http://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ticket/190
15:12:45 <jlaska> that's been queued up for the copious spare time we all have lurking just around the corner!
15:12:56 <jlaska> and last ...
15:12:59 <jlaska> #info jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value
15:13:15 <jlaska> I looked at this briefly, but don't have any new content to offer yet
15:13:28 <jlaska> this should only take a minute or two though ... will knock this out for next week
15:13:34 <jlaska> #action jlaska to cleanup (or remove) the Critical Path Packages#Background section so that it provides _some_ value
15:13:57 <jlaska> okay ... time for the main event
15:14:02 <jlaska> #topic Fedora 14 QA Recommendations
15:14:19 <jlaska> You're probably getting tire of me saying it by now P)
15:14:34 * Oxf13 peeks in
15:14:45 <jlaska> Oxf13: howdy
15:14:59 <jlaska> so I'm just about done with filing tickets for the recommendations wiki
15:15:06 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_13_QA_Retrospective#Recommendations
15:15:16 <j_dulaney> An idea: get various small technical and comunity colleges to help with testing
15:15:20 <jlaska> there are a few more that I've not yet filed ... but the bulk is complete
15:15:24 <adamw> i guess we should make sure all the tickets are assigned appropriately?
15:15:43 <jlaska> adamw: yup, I'm going to take this off the list ... and the next step is we get to work the queue
15:15:51 <adamw> j_dulaney: there's an open floor section at the end of the meeting, can you raise it there? thanks. just keeps things on track =)
15:16:06 <jlaska> #info Next step, start to work the ticket queue ... https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-qa/milestone/Fedora%2014
15:16:17 <Oxf13> A little late, but due to some internal communication, I want to ask this group if they thought a Fedora Knowledge Base would be useful to your efforts?
15:16:26 <Oxf13> as a recommendation for future Fedora releases.
15:16:40 * jlaska adds to open-floor ideas
15:17:23 <jlaska> last point here ... if there is something you were itching to work on for Fedora 14 QA ... and there isn't a ticket
15:17:48 <jlaska> not to worry :)  Just file a ticket and start workin'
15:18:01 <jlaska> Oxf13: btw ... I think that was down as a wishlist topic ... checking ...
15:18:07 <Oxf13> ok
15:18:38 <jlaska> Oxf13: same general idea ... "jlaska - Pony - some web tool to help collaborative problem debugging. Similar to http://answers.yahoo.com/ perhaps? "
15:18:51 <Oxf13> k
15:18:52 <jlaska> definitely filed under my pony category :)
15:19:08 <jlaska> but "knowledge base" might be a more appropriate title
15:19:24 <jlaska> okay ... any other comments on the retrospective or recommendations?
15:19:36 <jlaska> I'm not planning on including this topic in future meetings
15:19:39 <adamw> nup, just good job, thanks :)
15:20:12 <jlaska> thanks all for the feedback, I hope I captured a manageable set of tasks for us on F14
15:20:37 <jlaska> #topic Proventester update
15:20:53 <jlaska> adamw: I have this as a running meeting topic, but I don't know if there are any updates this week
15:21:10 <adamw> nothing much has happened. really we're waiting on bodhi now.
15:21:29 <adamw> the only thing i considered is adding some instructions for mentors as well as instructions for testers.
15:21:45 <jlaska> adamw: nice, so that means the proventester instructions dafrito and you worked on are complete?
15:21:46 <j_dulaney> It seems the Wiki entry could be cleaned up a bit
15:21:48 <adamw> i suppose it's worth nothing that the eds debacle gives a very clear indication of the need for this testing =)
15:21:51 <jlaska> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Proven_tester
15:21:54 <j_dulaney> Or I should say, made clearer
15:21:59 <adamw> jlaska: well, i can't see any way to improve them
15:22:10 <adamw> j_dulaney: which wiki entry, and what do you suggest could be improved?
15:22:12 <jlaska> adamw: nice, I call that complete! :D
15:22:23 <adamw> jlaska: either that or i suck, yep =)
15:22:27 <j_dulaney> adamw: preoventester
15:22:40 <adamw> the page jlaska just linked to?
15:23:10 <j_dulaney> Indeed
15:23:36 <adamw> what do you suggest changing?
15:24:34 <j_dulaney> I'm thinking a little more on the mentoring and approval process
15:25:27 <jlaska> j_dulaney: ah, I think something adamw mentioned he might like to see.  We'd welcome any content to get things started
15:25:31 <adamw> note that there is also the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/JoinProvenTesters page
15:25:45 <adamw> we should probably clean up the naming of both pages to be more co-operative
15:25:52 <j_dulaney> Indeed.  I seem to have missed that
15:26:02 <j_dulaney> Maybe combine them?
15:26:33 <adamw> possibly
15:26:51 <j_dulaney> The joinproventesters seems rather short to have its own entry
15:26:57 <adamw> we can basically choose to have one big 'everything about proven testers' page, or probably three separate pages for process, joining, mentoring
15:27:27 <adamw> one page is a nice simple concept, i just would want to make sure it doesn't get too long and hard to follow
15:27:38 * adamw 's sworn enemy is the eye-glaze effect ;)
15:27:45 <jlaska> I know that enemy
15:27:51 <adamw> otherwise known as tl;dr
15:28:00 <j_dulaney> That's why I tend to print :)
15:28:07 <adamw> (took me years to figure out what that meant)
15:28:49 <j_dulaney> Read through long bits of code, much?
15:28:52 <Oxf13> this is where you really wish for "collapsable" sections in mediawiki
15:29:28 <Oxf13> collapse all the sections by default except for the common top section, then expand the sub-sections as desired, for each of joining / mentoring
15:29:39 <adamw> yeah, that would be ideal
15:29:39 * ianweller peeks in
15:29:44 <jlaska> Oxf13: I think rhe found an option that might be available to anyone interested
15:29:53 <adamw> jlaska: i thought that was tables?
15:29:53 <jlaska> in fact, I think ianweller helped with adding the collapse css
15:30:08 <jlaska> adamw: yeah, but I believe there is similar support for <div>'s too
15:30:09 <ianweller> yeah i added css/javascript for collapsing tables
15:30:15 <jlaska> but I could definitely be *wrong*
15:30:18 <jlaska> rhe would know best
15:30:24 <jlaska> or of course our wiki master ... ianweller
15:30:39 <adamw> j_dulaney: it's something i try to avoid ;)
15:30:56 <jlaska> but anyway ... adamw j_dulaney: anything you guys want to try on the wiki for next week?
15:31:12 <j_dulaney> jlaska:  Sure
15:31:35 <adamw> j_dulaney: if you could make a separate draft of a combined page in your personal space on the wiki and send it to the list for comments that'd be awesome
15:31:47 <j_dulaney> adamw:  Indeed
15:31:48 <adamw> i'd like to know what aaron thinks too since he did such an awesome job on the proventesters page
15:31:58 <jlaska> good point!
15:32:02 <adamw> (aaron = dafrito, not sure if he's around)
15:32:35 <jlaska> grab and #action items you want ... otherwise, I'll keep this #topic on the agenda for our next meeting
15:33:31 <adamw> #action j_dulaney to draft a combined proventesters / joinproventesters wiki page for list review
15:33:43 <jlaska> ianweller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:NavFrame
15:34:09 <j_dulaney> #grab draft
15:34:18 <j_dulaney> Got it, will do
15:34:40 <ianweller> jlaska: i saw that, but it's not really making collapsible sections automaticaly
15:34:44 <ianweller> i can't spell today
15:34:54 <jlaska> ianweller: yeah, you're right
15:35:15 <adamw> ianweller: hey, at least you didn't say automagically
15:35:19 <adamw> there's a word that makes me want to punch things
15:35:26 * jlaska notes :)
15:35:37 <jlaska> okay, thanks adamw and j_dulaney
15:35:40 <jlaska> (and of course dafrito)
15:35:56 <jlaska> next up ...
15:35:56 <j_dulaney> the dude that taught me to program did things magically
15:36:17 <adamw> unless his name was otto, you're good
15:36:22 <jlaska> kparal: I just joined this other meeting, do you mind taking the #chair from here?
15:36:24 <adamw> (thank you, thank you, i'm here all week)
15:36:30 <jlaska> tip your waiter
15:36:31 <kparal> jlaska: sure
15:36:49 <j_dulaney> Wish I could afford to go somewhere with a waiter
15:36:54 * kparal looking for agenda
15:37:02 <jlaska> kparal: I asked wwoods to drive the autoqa update for today
15:37:05 <adamw> hey, denny's has waiters. technically.
15:37:31 <kparal> so, we can hop on the AutoQA, right?
15:37:40 <jlaska> kparal: yeah, that's next
15:37:46 <kparal> #topic AutoQA update
15:37:54 <kparal> wwoods: you have the mic!
15:38:08 <wwoods> HELLO FEDORA QA
15:38:11 <wwoods> ARE YOU READY TO ROOOOOOCK
15:38:16 <wwoods> ahem sorry.
15:38:20 <kparal> *applaud
15:38:23 <j_dulaney> I've already got some Godsmack going
15:38:25 <jlaska> haha
15:38:28 <adamw> WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
15:38:33 <wwoods> so last week we (finally) got the post-bodhi-update hook merged
15:38:34 <chenrano2002> gogogogo
15:38:42 * adamw jumps on someone's head
15:39:04 <adamw> yay
15:39:05 <jlaska> welcome chenrano2002!
15:39:08 <wwoods> we're working on a new 'helloworld' test to make sure the bodhi-watcher and autoqa hook are working properly
15:39:15 <chenrano2002> yes, I'm here:)
15:39:35 <j_dulaney> in what language?
15:39:41 <kparal> #info post-bodhi-update hook is merged
15:39:46 <wwoods> the target is, of course, the 'depcheck' test
15:39:58 <wwoods> which should check all new proposed updates for dependency breakage
15:40:02 <kparal> #info 'helloworld' test is a new big task now ;)
15:40:15 <wwoods> and refuse to let rel-eng move packages that might break the repos
15:40:27 <chenrano2002> helloworld is really needed for newbie, I hope to see it
15:40:30 <adamw> *fanfare*
15:40:32 <wwoods> but that's a complex test that will require help from infrastructure/releng to set up properly
15:41:02 <j_dulaney> Where can I go to read up on autoqa?
15:41:03 <wwoods> so the helloworld test (written in python, like all the autoqa stuff) is what we'll use to test out the new hook.
15:41:25 <wwoods> https://fedorahosted.org/autoqa/ is where the code lives
15:41:30 <j_dulaney> Roger
15:41:32 <wwoods> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/AutoQA is where the wiki docs are
15:42:01 <kparal> ok, thanks wwoods
15:42:13 <kparal> anything else from your end?
15:42:16 <jlaska> wwoods: what can I help with to complete that helloworld?
15:42:28 <jlaska> I think you and kparal had some run_once() suggestions ... just combine those and test?
15:42:35 <wwoods> there's more autoqa stuff going on, but I think kparal & jskladan will have more to say about that
15:42:38 <kparal> jlaska: I believe so
15:43:02 <wwoods> jlaska: yeah - go for the quick-n-dirty-and-simple test and just dump locals()
15:43:11 <jlaska> kparal: wwoods: (helloworld) ... okay thanks, I'll update the ticket
15:43:22 * Viking-Ice starts Moshing. . . .
15:43:33 <wwoods> in the next week or two we might have a discussion about standardizing hook argument names, or tweaking the convention for passing hook args
15:43:46 <wwoods> but don't let that stop you from getting helloworld working now.
15:43:50 <kparal> #topic AutoQA update - resultdb
15:43:51 <jlaska> at first, helloworld will just work with post-bodhi-update?
15:43:56 <kparal> er
15:44:06 <kparal> #topic AutoQA update
15:44:07 <jlaska> kparal: sorry ... keep going, I'll follow-up with you guys on fedora-qa after
15:44:15 * kparal misclicked
15:44:50 <kparal> #info standardization of hook argument names will be discussed soon
15:44:55 <chenrano2002> kaparal can't wait to share his idea:)
15:45:10 <kparal> jlaska: I believe helloworld should work for any hook
15:45:27 <kparal> it will be just a generic test that will print out incoming arguments
15:45:31 <kparal> that's all
15:45:37 <kparal> and reports success :)
15:45:42 <jlaska> kparal: right, just didn't know how far you guys wanted me to go with this
15:46:01 <jlaska> but I'll hold off the standardization of hook args for later
15:46:02 <j_dulaney> No pretty stuff on screen?
15:46:25 <kparal> maybe it could draw a pony
15:46:32 <j_dulaney> YAY
15:46:33 <kparal> alright, ready for jskladan's update?
15:46:53 <kparal> #topic AutoQA update - resultdb
15:46:57 <jskladan> well, updates on the ResultsDB front - i have a testing instance up'n'running on one of our machines (kudos to jlaska & infrastracture team), i already rewrote initscripts & rpmlint tests (see jskladan branch in autoqa git) so they store the data inside. I'll finish the other tests during this week and will set up the testing autotest-server instance so it runs these tests :)
15:47:18 <adamw> sounds nice!
15:47:29 <kparal> #info resultdb running on our staging server
15:47:32 <jskladan> so stay tuned for the magical tool being filled with data :)
15:47:56 <jskladan> and once there is some reasonable specimen
15:48:06 <jskladan> we can start working on some frontends
15:48:23 <adamw> is it magical and revolutionary?
15:48:39 <kparal> adamw: you bet
15:48:59 <j_dulaney> Can it make a cheesesteak appear in front of me?
15:49:01 <jskladan> so that's about it on the resultsDB for now :)
15:49:08 <kparal> ok, thanks jskladan
15:49:21 <kparal> #topic AutoQA update - autotest labels
15:49:34 <kparal> and now for something different
15:49:39 <jskladan> j_dulaney: only if you can pronounce the mighty words of power :))
15:50:05 <kparal> I have created 'labels' branch that contains patched autoqa that can use autotest labels properly
15:50:09 <kparal> at least I hope so
15:50:14 <j_dulaney> jskladan: I know not this heavy wizardry, yet
15:50:15 <kparal> announcement here
15:50:18 <kparal> #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000742.html
15:50:39 <kparal> we should now be able to specify "this test must run on Fedora 12", even dynamically
15:50:44 <wwoods> hooray!
15:50:48 <adamw> shiny!
15:51:00 <wwoods> that was a big missing piece for a while, this is totally awesome
15:51:18 <kparal> and we're now discussing best names for our labels:
15:51:21 <kparal> #link https://fedorahosted.org/pipermail/autoqa-devel/2010-June/000740.html
15:51:36 <wwoods> does it just look for an existing machine that matches the labels, or can we actually spin up VMs as needed?
15:52:04 <kparal> wwoods: it doesn't check for anything, it just schedules the job and atest takes care of the rest
15:52:20 <kparal> if there is no machine matching that label, I guess it stays scheduled indefinitely
15:52:43 <kparal> there are certainly areas for improvement :)
15:52:55 <kparal> I still have to test is properly
15:53:08 <j_dulaney> So, how would I go about getting my machines talking to it all?
15:53:48 <kparal> #info autotest labels can now be used when patched autoqa from 'labels' branch is used
15:53:51 <wwoods> j_dulaney: at this point, you don't. Although you can certainly run the tests at home if you like
15:54:31 <kparal> I'm also working on a script that will ease VM installation for us, that's a second thing. I want to use it for my 'labels' testing
15:54:37 <kparal> alright, that's from me
15:54:39 <adamw> and you can set up your own autoqa server also. since, y'know, we're showing it's so damn easy ;)
15:54:45 <j_dulaney> woods: right
15:55:02 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
15:55:10 <kparal> now type your ideas
15:55:27 <adamw> we've had two mentioned earlier already
15:55:31 <adamw> i believe j_dulaney was first
15:55:41 <kparal> ok, what was the name of the idea?
15:55:46 * kparal scrolls back
15:56:21 <kparal> j_dulaney: An idea: get various small technical and comunity colleges to help with testing
15:56:39 <kparal> #topic Open discussion - colleges to help testing
15:56:41 <j_dulaney> I was thinking of getting IT type classes at said colleges to do some of the testing for us
15:56:50 <adamw> we've actually had one case of that already
15:57:10 <kparal> j_dulaney: so what do you suggest should be done and how can you help? :)
15:57:48 <adamw> vedran miletic teaches classes at a university, and he integrates Bugzappers into that; we've helped him out with having his students do some triage work a couple of times
15:57:52 <adamw> it is a neat system
15:57:55 <wwoods> is there a school you're in touch with where you could start such a program?
15:58:17 <wwoods> oh cool so there's some documented prior work on how to do this stuff?
15:58:46 <j_dulaney> at the local community college, I know the instructer that teaches the appropriate class
15:59:13 <j_dulaney> I can't think of what said class is called at the moment, massive brain fart here
15:59:41 <j_dulaney> Anyway, I'm sure he'd be happy to have his students try to break applications once in a while.
15:59:55 <adamw> well for sure ask if the instructor's interested, and point to the QA/Join page for ideas - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Join
16:00:04 <j_dulaney> Roger that
16:00:04 <adamw> if they'd like to try any of that stuff we can certainly arrange to help them out
16:00:53 <kparal> ok, if you have some contacts, try to lure them to us, sounds good :)
16:00:53 <j_dulaney> I could also do the same thing at the local high school when class starts back up this fall
16:01:04 <adamw> yup
16:01:16 <kparal> ok, thanks
16:01:20 <kparal> what was the other idea?
16:01:53 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
16:01:59 * jraber wonders if anyone has heard an update regarding bug 552423  It is a COMMONBUG, but the last time I checked it was the only COMMONBUG with no workaround or planned fix
16:02:19 <kparal> .bug 552423
16:02:21 <zodbot> kparal: Bug 552423 [abrt] crash in gnome-panel (/usr/libexec/wnck-applet @ wncklet_connect_while_alive / wncklet.c:183) - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=552423
16:02:37 <adamw> kparal: it was from oxf13 regarding a knowledge base
16:03:27 <kparal> #topic Open discussion - Knowledge base
16:04:05 <adamw> personally i hate the damn things, like i hate any large aggregation of likely-to-change-rapidly information without good mechanisms for staying up to date...
16:04:12 <kparal> ok, so tell me what's the difference between knowledge base and a wiki? :)
16:04:31 <j_dulaney> Microsoft's sucks
16:04:39 <j_dulaney> Indeed, it is often useless
16:04:54 <adamw> a well organized wiki is more granular and hence tends to have a better 'ownership' stake
16:05:10 <chenrano2002> newers need docs, so is it possible to convert/public useful wiki to PDF format for reading locally?
16:05:23 <adamw> in a good wiki, some person/people or group is clearly the owner of a given page and should update it
16:05:23 <kparal> what would be the benefit of a knowledge base for us then?
16:05:30 <adamw> yeah, i'm struggling
16:05:33 <adamw> Oxf13: is there any more detail on the idea?
16:05:48 <adamw> what's the proposed format/content of the knowledge base? how is it differentiated from the wiki? how would it be written/maintained?
16:06:15 <kparal> thanks for formulating those questions, adamw
16:06:51 * jlaska back
16:07:15 * kparal gives jlaska the throne back
16:07:24 <j_dulaney> I myself rather enjoy the idea of PDFs for basic stuff, but then one can just save the Wiki page
16:07:25 <jlaska> kparal: no sir ... take us to the end :)
16:07:43 <jlaska> don't want to distrupt the flow as much as I already have
16:08:09 <kparal> we're just struggling with finding differences between knowledge base and wiki
16:08:33 <jlaska> I don't know if there was anything actionable with this topic
16:08:36 <kparal> alright, seems Oxf13 is away, we can discuss it next time
16:08:49 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
16:08:49 <adamw> sure
16:09:07 <kparal> anything else anyone?
16:09:09 <Oxf13> sorry I was on another call.
16:09:12 <adamw> ah
16:09:51 <Oxf13> adamw: basically the idea of having a Fedora KB has been kicked around by a couple people, and before we put any resources into it, we have to make sure there will be somebody to consume/contribute to it, so that it'll be useful use of our resources.
16:10:06 <kparal> #topic Open discussion - Knowledge base
16:10:12 <adamw> are there answers to the above question?
16:10:16 <adamw> questions*
16:10:47 <jlaska> adamw: nothing here ... let's come back to this when there is something more tangible
16:11:04 <jlaska> I think it could be a compelling discussion ... if there is a proposal or existing solution etc.. ??
16:11:04 <kparal> #topic Open discussion <your topic here>
16:11:13 <jlaska> my $0.02 at least
16:11:22 <jraber> regarding bug 552423, if nobody has an update, should I ping the maintainer? (should I save this for the bugzappers meeting tomorrow?)
16:11:32 <adamw> if the idea is just 'something called a knowledge base' then i'd say, no, on the surface it seems to be just a duplication of the wiki and i can't see any added value. but we need more detail to provide sensible feedback.
16:11:39 <kparal> jraber: please raise this question in #fedora-qa channel
16:11:45 <jlaska> adamw: yup
16:12:27 <kparal> alright, let's wait a minute and then close this meeting if noone objects
16:13:12 <j_dulaney> I can think of nothing else
16:13:18 <kparal> thanks all for attending
16:13:22 <kparal> #endmeeting