14:00:28 <rdieter> #startmeeting kde-sig -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE/Meetings/2010-06-08
14:00:28 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jun  8 14:00:28 2010 UTC.  The chair is rdieter. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00:28 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00:31 <rdieter> #meetingname kde-sig
14:00:31 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'kde-sig'
14:00:42 <rdieter> #topic roll call
14:00:47 <Kevin_Kofler> Present.
14:00:52 <SMParrish> here
14:02:01 <jreznik> here
14:02:08 * than is present
14:02:29 * thomasj here
14:02:42 <rdieter> #info Kevin_Kofler SMParrish jreznik than thomasj rdieter present
14:02:52 <rdieter> #topic agenda
14:03:01 <Kevin_Kofler> 4.4.4
14:03:08 <rdieter> so far, we've got status updates for kde-4.4.4, 4.4.85, qt-4.6.3 , anything else ?
14:03:35 <rdieter> er... kde sc 4.4.4 , etc... :)
14:04:15 <rdieter> ok, let's move on to that then.
14:04:27 <rdieter> #topic KDE SC 4.4.4 status (F11?)
14:04:51 <jreznik> than: ?
14:05:04 <rdieter> I see f13, f12 builds in updates-testing already, good, any feedback good/bad yet?
14:05:05 <than> i will say we don't do 4.4.4 update for f11
14:05:13 <than> only for F12/F13
14:05:27 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't see why we wouldn't do F11.
14:05:34 <Kevin_Kofler> IMHO there's enough time to do F11 too.
14:05:42 <than> it's just  waste of time
14:05:43 <rdieter> f11 is eol in ~2 weeks, fwiw.
14:05:48 <SMParrish> I agree with than
14:06:00 <Kevin_Kofler> 2 weeks and 3 days
14:06:08 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't know when exactly the last push will be though.
14:06:17 <Kevin_Kofler> But there's certainly enough time for 1 week of testing.
14:06:23 <rdieter> 2 things to consider (at least):  1.  any critical/important fixes in 4.4.4 ?
14:06:28 <Kevin_Kofler> (which is normal for a bugfix release)
14:06:45 <rdieter> 2.  do we have any -sig'ers using f11 that can help test things ?
14:07:19 <rdieter> if the answers to either/both of those is close to nil, then it's probably not a good idea to do.
14:07:23 <Kevin_Kofler> I'm generally of the "no complaints == push it" school.
14:07:54 <thomasj> AFAIK no -sig'ers left on F-11.
14:07:56 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't think any of us is still running F11, I have F12 and F13 on my 2 machines, I guess most of us are already on F13.
14:08:11 <than> Kevin_Kofler: it's not good if noone tests it!
14:08:26 <Kevin_Kofler> So you'd rather leave the bugs unfixed?
14:08:34 <Kevin_Kofler> We KNOW there are bugs in 4.4.3 which 4.4.4 fixes.
14:08:58 <jreznik> f11 users should upgrade soon
14:08:59 <Kevin_Kofler> We also know that there's going to be plenty of testing on F13 and some on F12 and that those are the exact same specfiles we want to push to F11.
14:09:03 <nucleo> 4.4.4 works for me in F13. Didn't see any issues after update. Some decorations fixed - no black dots on the edges of menus in vlc which was before 4.4.4.
14:09:06 <than> Kevin_Kofler: just close it and say "update to F12/F13"
14:09:11 <thomasj> How long are people supposed to run F-11? Two weeks and 3 days right? So why all the effort for about 3-4 days with 4.4.4 on F-11?
14:09:39 <rdieter> thomasj: folks can continue to use it indefinitely, if they so choose.
14:09:41 <rdieter> of course.
14:09:42 <Kevin_Kofler> thomasj: It would be more like ~10 days.
14:09:59 <Kevin_Kofler> We should target a week of total testing, i.e. starting from the push a few hours ago.
14:10:06 <thomasj> And what if there are regressions? We can't/won't fix them.
14:10:06 <Kevin_Kofler> I don't believe in per-release testing.
14:10:14 <Kevin_Kofler> I think those are the same packages and should be handled globally.
14:10:30 <than> Kevin_Kofler: we can vote for this if you want ;-)
14:10:40 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: I agree in large part, but we have seen release-specific bugs appear from time to time
14:11:14 <than> let us vote for this.
14:11:30 <rdieter> Is my recollection wrong in that we had discussed 4.4.4 updates for f11 in a previous meeting?
14:11:49 <than> rdieter: i did not see it in log file
14:12:13 <Kevin_Kofler> I think we didn't. We had at one point said 4.4.3 would be the last one, but that was before the F11 EOL slipped for 2 (or even 3? I don't remember) weeks.
14:12:13 <jreznik> the only question is - is it worth to spend time doing update - it's not very difficult to sync CVS and to build it but still it takes some time
14:12:21 <Kevin_Kofler> Now 4.4.4 is very much doable.
14:12:29 <Kevin_Kofler> I vote +1 to 4.4.4 for F11.
14:12:43 <than> -1 to 4.4.4 for F11
14:13:24 <Kevin_Kofler> I think it is a bad attitude to "desupport" releases for BUGFIX updates before the official EOL.
14:13:26 <ltinkl> -1
14:13:43 <SMParrish> -1
14:13:44 <Kevin_Kofler> The point of having an EOL date is that bugs are FIXED until the EOL date.
14:13:50 <Kevin_Kofler> Not pushing bugfix updates is broken.
14:13:55 <jreznik> 0 - I'm not against if Kevin_Kofler prepares update - but in case of problems - it can die in -testing
14:14:12 <Kevin_Kofler> It effectively means F11 is already EOL. :-/
14:14:25 <thomasj> Well, it kinda is ;)
14:14:40 <rdieter> jreznik: I agree
14:15:03 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: would you be interested in doing the builds, prepping the update ?
14:15:11 <rdieter> If so, I'm +1
14:15:50 <ltinkl> technically, F11 is not EOL'd, so nothing stops Kevin from doing it :)
14:16:02 <jreznik> then I'm +1 too - but please do not push it to stable without testing! (so F11 install in VM, -testing updates)
14:16:12 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: I can do the work.
14:16:21 <thomasj> No sig testers for F-11. Users still on F-11 are expected not to use -testing. So if we push it out after a week because there's no -1 karma we could be bitten.
14:17:05 <Kevin_Kofler> thomasj: That's an argument for pushing it earlier so we have time left before EOL to push another update to fix it. :-)
14:17:30 <rdieter> by my count, proposal does not pass
14:17:36 <thomasj> Kevin_Kofler, you know that gives the others more reasons to kill us for cracy updates :)
14:17:47 <thomasj> crazy
14:18:08 <Kevin_Kofler> Basically, we have 1 strong +1, 2 weak +1, 3 -1 and svahl is absent due to work.
14:18:17 <rdieter> how about a compromise then.  If Kevin_Kofler does the builds, I'll host them in kde-redhat repo
14:19:06 <rdieter> thomasj: then we won't have anyone acusing us of crazy'ness :)
14:19:26 <thomasj> Sounds very good :)
14:19:30 <jreznik> what we need it to ensure we do not push something broken to stable at the last moment
14:19:44 <thomasj> +1
14:20:16 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: is that agreeable ?
14:20:39 <Kevin_Kofler> rdieter: I think it's quite sad to do all the work and then pushing it only to an unofficial repo. :-(
14:20:54 <Kevin_Kofler> But I can do that if you think it's the best solution.
14:21:16 <rdieter> Kevin_Kofler: partly sad, but it's the safest thing to do here for a near-eol release
14:21:54 <rdieter> #agreed Kevin_Kofler will work on 4.4.4 f11 builds, to be hosted in kde-redhat repo as an unofficial update
14:21:58 <Kevin_Kofler> I strongly believe in releases being entitled to bugfixes until EOL.
14:22:17 <thomasj> Kevin_Kofler, do you get KDE bugs for F-11? I'm not.
14:22:20 <rdieter> anything else wrt 4.4.4 ?  move on?
14:22:54 <Kevin_Kofler> (which is also why I'm against all this "no feature updates" bullsh*t, it's effectively impossible to support KDE with bugfixes without pushing those feature updates every 6 months)
14:23:18 <rdieter> #topic KDE SC 4.4.85 status
14:23:22 <rdieter> jreznik:  ?
14:23:32 <jreznik> Kevin_Kofler: problem is - if we broke something in the latest -stable push, we can't fix it... for me it wouldn't be problem to do it one day before eol...
14:23:35 <Kevin_Kofler> Something tells me that this procedure (builds to be hosted in kde-redhat) is going to become commonplace soon, "thanks" to FESCo. :-(
14:23:47 <jreznik> rdieter: it's in CVS - only kdegames are not yet
14:24:04 <jreznik> rebranding patch does not apply
14:24:41 <rdieter> jreznik: you mean kdegames-trademarks?  (I thought upstream was going to fix that for us?)
14:25:34 <jreznik> yep, trademarks
14:25:53 <rdieter> while we're at it discussing 4.4.85, we can also discuss the new docbook-related deps needed
14:26:11 <rdieter> #topic KDE SC 4.4.85 status, system docbook requirement
14:26:44 <rdieter> I think from earlier discussion, we had concluded the best place to add these was kdelibs
14:27:00 <rdieter> since it's needed by kio_help
14:27:20 <jreznik> rdieter: it's not yet in kde 4.5 - I'll rebase the patch - looks easy (I was just too tired yesterday)
14:27:38 <rdieter> jreznik: ok, let's get kdelibs/docbook sorted out first.
14:27:54 <rdieter> then we can requeue all the ftbfs stuff piling up
14:28:28 <jreznik> yep
14:28:32 <rdieter> anyone want to followup with kdegames upstream to find out what the holdup is with trademark removals?
14:29:49 * rdieter will do it. :)
14:30:01 <rdieter> #action jreznik to work on fixing kdelibs/docbook related issues
14:30:04 <than> it seems upstream doesn't care about trademark
14:30:11 <rdieter> #action rdieter will followup with kdegames upstream wrt trademarks
14:30:33 <rdieter> than: last I heard, they agreed to do the renames, and were deliberating on what new names to use...
14:30:46 <jreznik> rdieter: docbook - it should be requirement for kdelibs, not kdelibs-devel a internal dtds were shipped in main kdelibs package
14:30:49 <rdieter> but maybe they never reached consensus
14:31:28 <rdieter> anything else wrt 4.4.85 ?
14:31:35 <than> i sent some trademark report/fixes to upstream, but nothing is happen yet
14:32:01 <rdieter> than: bugs.kde.org ?  or mailing list?  do you have references?
14:32:16 <rdieter> if so, I can use those when I contact them
14:32:48 <thomasj> Since we're at 4.4.85, new tarball for kdeedu is uploaded
14:33:18 <than> rdieter: no, i just sent it direct to kde developers who are responsible for the code
14:33:25 <rdieter> ok
14:33:38 <rdieter> moving on...
14:33:43 <rdieter> #topic Qt 4.6.3
14:33:49 <Kevin_Kofler> Re docbook, I'm for requiring the stuff in kdelibs given that it appears to be needed at runtime.
14:34:09 <rdieter> than : I think I recall overhearing you were working on 4.6.3 ?
14:34:27 <than> yes, i'm working on 4.6.3 update
14:34:29 <rdieter> if so, how's it going?  need help?
14:34:32 <thomasj> jreznik, you saw it? Dirk used the wrong source, he recommends to switch to the new tarball.
14:34:52 <rdieter> thomasj: ok
14:35:03 <thomasj> ok
14:36:54 <jreznik> thomasj: I'm lost, which topic are you replying to?
14:37:07 <than> it will take times to check all the paches whether they are already included in 4.6.3
14:37:18 <jreznik> than: I see now - kdeedu
14:37:24 <thomasj> jreznik, sorry, kdeedu for 4.4.85
14:40:11 <rdieter> alright then.
14:40:14 <rdieter> #topic open discussion
14:40:19 <rdieter> anything else for today ?
14:42:11 <Kevin_Kofler> FYI, I picked up comaintainership for Krusader, since mgarski doesn't have much if any time to take care of it.
14:42:30 <nucleo> Should ktorrent 4.0.0 be pushed to F12 stable after testing or only for F13? There was many crashes. Some of them fixed, some not.
14:42:45 <Kevin_Kofler> I updated it to the latest upstream beta (since upstream hasn't released a stable release for a while), backported XZ support, added one missing hunk for XZ support and fixed 5 bugs.
14:43:13 <Kevin_Kofler> Now I'm trying to track down somebody upstream to get my fixes merged, but upstream isn't very active either and I couldn't get ahold of anybody who feels responsible so far. :-(
14:43:34 <Kevin_Kofler> I might end up just committing stuff since it's in KDE SVN, but I'd really like to not commit stuff without approval.
14:44:20 <rdieter> nucleo: good question.  f13 yes.  f12 probably too, but perhaps ask ktorrent upstream what they recommend?  ie, is 3.3.x supported much anymore?
14:44:31 <Kevin_Kofler> nucleo: Well, are those crashes new?
14:44:53 <nucleo> Kevin_Kofler: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=238794
14:45:03 <nucleo> this not fixed
14:45:33 <nucleo> but in svn changelog other fixed crashes
14:45:46 <nucleo> *fixed other crashes
14:46:16 <nucleo> rdieter: Ok. I will ask them.
14:47:30 <jreznik> ok, kdeedu tarball updated
14:47:43 <jreznik> added requires to kdelibs, please check it
14:48:42 <Kevin_Kofler> FYI, I started doing F11 builds of 4.4.4 (for kde-redhat, as discussed).
14:49:13 <rdieter> alright, let's wrap up the meeting, if no other topics (in 30...)
14:49:23 <rdieter> 20
14:49:33 <rdieter> 10
14:49:40 <nucleo> Kevin_Kofler: this is new https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=239023 was fixed in svn
14:49:47 <rdieter> #endmeeting