23:01:04 <stickster> #startmeeting Fedora Documentation
23:01:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed May  5 23:01:04 2010 UTC.  The chair is stickster. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:01:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
23:01:45 <stickster> #meetingname Fedora Docs
23:01:45 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_docs'
23:01:51 <stickster> #chair rudi
23:01:51 <zodbot> Current chairs: rudi stickster
23:02:15 <stickster> #topic Meeting facilitator guest star!
23:02:26 <stickster> #info rudi is running a meeting tonight, at least for a bit, while stickster gets some dinner
23:02:29 <stickster> #topic Roll call
23:02:35 * jjmcd_ 
23:02:36 * stickster 
23:02:42 * Emad78 here
23:02:43 * gbinns 
23:02:43 <stickster> #chair jjmcd_
23:02:43 <zodbot> Current chairs: jjmcd_ rudi stickster
23:02:44 * rudi is here
23:02:51 <noriko> here
23:02:52 <stickster> Ah, rudi, you may be off the hook iff. jjmcd_ can do tonight
23:02:57 <rudi> Awesome :)
23:03:07 * jjmcd_ is in a hotel, somewhat net crippled
23:03:09 * rudi is delighted to give up the chair
23:03:21 * Gearoid is here
23:03:25 * radsy is here
23:03:27 * ke4qqq is here
23:03:34 <stickster> OK, jjmcd_ why don't you assist rudi as you can then
23:03:43 * rudi stays in the chair :)
23:03:47 <stickster> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Docs_Project_meetings#Agenda_for_Next_Meeting <-- Agenda
23:03:53 <jjmcd_> That would be fine, I'm practically sitting on the floor, not very good for typing
23:04:41 <rudi> OK, so:
23:04:48 <rudi> #topic last week's action items
23:04:54 <stickster> See, you're a master already :-)
23:04:58 <rudi> :)
23:05:05 * stickster ducks out but will probably be back by about :35
23:05:12 <rudi> ke4qqq to identify the guides/other items that aren't under docs/
23:05:38 * quaid drops in late
23:05:46 <ke4qqq> rudi: sent a list to the docs-list - saw zero comments on it - and actually zero comments after the fact on the proposal itself
23:06:21 <rudi> So where to from here?
23:07:03 <ke4qqq> guess someone has to make a decision on whether we accept the 'docs fas group to rule them all' and then decide if we move all of the existing docs underneath that docs/ directory
23:07:13 <ke4qqq> theres ~15 that aren't now
23:07:34 <jjmcd_> aren't those two questions
23:07:38 <jjmcd_> independent
23:07:44 <ke4qqq> jjmcd_: well not independent
23:07:59 <ke4qqq> 2nd one is moot if the answer to one is no
23:08:16 <rudi> ke4qqq -- are you good to post a "last call for input" to f-d-l this week?
23:08:21 <jjmcd_> seems lik nb said they didnt need to be on the one tree to have one group
23:08:33 <ke4qqq> rudi: I can do that
23:08:47 <ke4qqq> jjmcd_: they don't need to be, but it would make life a bit simpler and more organized if they were
23:09:13 * ardchoille here
23:09:20 <rudi> #action ke4qqq to post to f-d-l as a final call for input on grouping guides under docs/
23:10:13 <rudi> jjmcd_ -- is it OK to keep moving right now, and follow this up after ke4qqq's post?
23:10:41 <jjmcd_> yes of course
23:10:57 <rudi> Sorry -- we're already slipping today :)
23:11:10 <rudi> stickster On 2010-05-04 UTC 0001, build {S,}RPM, get it into Package CVS, build in koji, push to bodhi
23:11:30 <jjmcd_> we know from his f-d-l post that was done
23:11:36 <rudi> I saw that happen, so...
23:12:02 <rudi> #info SRPM got built on schedule
23:12:16 <rudi> stickster Fix Live image information and respond to thread pointing to next regular build on fp.o
23:12:37 <rudi> Anyone know about that?
23:12:54 <jjmcd_> I see nothing in git
23:13:15 <rudi> OK -- deferring to next time
23:13:28 <rudi> #action stickster Fix Live image information and respond to thread pointing to next regular build on fp.o
23:13:42 <rudi> sparks to take the FAD @ SELF discussion to the Docs list
23:14:42 * jjmcd_ doesn't recall seeing that but could have missed it
23:14:48 <rudi> I don't recall seeing anything on the list either
23:14:55 <rudi> #action sparks to take the FAD @ SELF discussion to the Docs list
23:15:03 <ke4qqq> it was 6 days ago on the list - but ongoing - not complete yet
23:15:26 <rudi> OK --
23:15:37 <rudi> #indo FAD @ SELF discussions continuing
23:15:43 <rudi> #info FAD @ SELF discussions continuing
23:16:00 <rudi> I'll report on my three now:
23:16:43 <rudi> #info rudi reports anaconda material now backported into IG and IQSG -- both now in translations
23:16:57 <ke4qqq> awesome!!
23:17:24 <rudi> #info rudi reports DG will be completed by GA, but not in time for (complete) translation for F13
23:18:00 <ke4qqq> rudi: is that something others can help with?
23:18:06 <rudi> Oh -- we have radsy here today -- can you give us an update please?
23:18:34 <rudi> ke4qqq -- I'll ask, but I don't think so; I think it's a situation like the IG where RHEL6 material is being backported
23:18:35 <radsy> still working on guides for 13
23:18:48 <rudi> #action -- rudi to find out if perspectival can do with some help on the DG
23:19:04 <rudi> radsy -- how are you tracking on them?
23:19:12 <radsy> on track for GA
23:19:46 <rudi> radsy -- that's Wireless, Confined Services, anything else?
23:20:06 <radsy> wireless, confined services, selinux user guide
23:20:24 <rudi> #info radsy reports wireless, confined services, selinux user guide on track for GA
23:20:35 <rudi> Thanks radsy! :)
23:20:37 <rudi> jjmcd to close beats
23:20:42 <jjmcd_> done
23:20:51 <rudi> #info beats closed
23:20:57 <radsy> oh, and selinux faq
23:21:13 <rudi> #info radsy reports selinux faq on track for GA
23:21:15 <radsy> (article)
23:21:15 <rudi> Thanks! :)
23:21:26 <rudi> So, moving on...
23:21:37 <rudi> #topic Schedule review
23:21:50 <rudi> Anything to report here?
23:21:55 * stickster returns
23:22:02 <stickster> Whoa, that's fortuitous
23:22:16 <stickster> *: There is a pretty good likelihood of a one-week slip in F13 release
23:22:37 <ke4qqq> another one week slip?
23:22:48 <stickster> About which no one is happy, but there are still 6 bugs listed against F13Blocker
23:23:04 <stickster> It might only be 5, waiting for answer on that one
23:23:16 <rudi> #info likelihood of 1-week slip in GA
23:23:18 <stickster> But either way, if we don't have a RC ready tomorrow, there's no chance of making the schedule.
23:23:53 <rudi> Good news for L10N, given how late us Red Hatters have been in getting guides out to them :(
23:25:00 <rudi> Looking at the guides table -- I still need to update the IG and IQSG to green, but we're looking pretty good now
23:25:25 <rudi> Anything else on the schedule?
23:25:45 <rudi> Ploughing on ahead then...
23:25:52 <rudi> #topic Release Notes
23:26:07 <rudi> So, as noted, the SRPM got built on time
23:26:17 <rudi> jjmcd_ -- anything else this week?
23:26:22 <jjmcd_> No,I
23:26:27 <jjmcd_> m out pf toen
23:26:31 <jjmcd_> town sheesh
23:26:40 <jjmcd_> stickster did all the work this week
23:27:11 <rudi> So basically, we're good to go; and already have 10 complete translations! :)
23:27:19 <stickster> \o/
23:27:27 <jjmcd_> #info Bravo L10N
23:27:28 <rudi> #info L10N is *awesome*
23:27:36 <rudi> snap! :)
23:27:52 <noriko> :-))
23:27:54 <stickster> #info stickster would like to revisit our building process, since we can probably reduce the level of complexity a couple notches by just making a tarball
23:27:59 <stickster> #undo
23:27:59 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x22eb1e90>
23:28:07 <stickster> #info stickster would like to revisit our building process after F-13 GA, since we can probably reduce the level of complexity a couple notches by just making a tarball
23:28:35 <rudi> Noted :)
23:28:41 <rudi> OK then...
23:28:46 <rudi> #topic All other guides
23:28:57 <rudi> Anything else to report here that we haven't already?
23:30:06 <rudi> Crickets :)
23:30:38 <rudi> I take that to mean that the worst of the heavy lifting is over now
23:30:58 <rudi> So...
23:31:04 <rudi> #topic git repo conversion
23:31:24 <rudi> Sorry ke4qqq -- I hadn't read the agenda far enough ahead when I cut this off earlier
23:31:46 * rudi is a meeting chair newbie
23:32:05 <jjmcd_> On the first item, moving the repos, maybe we should just ask whether anyone objects?
23:32:10 * ianweller is here
23:32:30 <rudi> Good question
23:32:43 * ke4qqq isn't for moving just for moving's sake - I mean everyone will have to change .git/config - we should get something out of it if we do it.
23:32:48 <stickster> One thing I noticed
23:33:01 <stickster> is that the docs/ folder tends to throw people who are used to contributing in other hosted projects
23:33:24 <jjmcd_> OTOH, for Docs folks, it makes it was quicker and esaier to find stuff
23:33:30 <jjmcd_> way
23:33:30 <stickster> But if it's a uniform setting, then it would be less likely to cause problems
23:33:35 <stickster> Right
23:33:39 <stickster> Doing it two ways? Not so good
23:33:46 <jjmcd_> exactly
23:33:57 <rudi> For those of us who do work in multiple spaces, having everything in one spot is a real blessing :)
23:33:59 <stickster> Fortunately -- people who *have* access to the repos are easy to reach
23:34:33 <stickster> you can email 'gitblahguide-users@', 'gitblahguide-sponsors@', 'gitblahguide-administrators@' to grab the whole group
23:34:45 <stickster> That way everyone knows their repo has moved
23:34:49 <stickster> that's @fp.o by the way.
23:35:27 <ke4qqq> does that ability go away if we consolidate access under docs?? I mean we'd no longer need to add people to the gitblahguide fas group
23:35:42 <stickster> It doesn't help people who have no group access, and cloned anonymously.
23:35:54 <stickster> ke4qqq: The group access is completely orthogonal to the repo location
23:36:03 <stickster> But not to the "One big Docs group" issue
23:36:30 <rudi> Moving the repos will also cause a short period of chaos for Tranisfex
23:36:45 <ke4qqq> yes I was thinking of one big docs group issue - hadn't considered that problem. or if it even is one
23:37:00 <stickster> rudi: Right, but we could mitigate by announcing a period of time ahead, doing the swap in conjunction with Tx admins, and then announcing again it had been completed.
23:37:15 <stickster> minimizing down time for anyone who is reading the trans@ list
23:37:19 <ke4qqq> do we need to wait til post release?
23:37:26 <stickster> ke4qqq: Absolutely IMHO
23:37:30 <rudi> ke4qqq -- YES :)
23:37:50 <jjmcd_> Yeah, after being reminded about tfx, sounds like we need ot
23:38:50 <rudi> Can Zodbot record a show of hands on deferring any repo movement till after GA?
23:39:24 <jjmcd_> Don't we have a raft of freezes making it a moot point?
23:39:24 <ke4qqq> I think it's unanimous anyway
23:39:57 <ke4qqq> I think freezes affect server configuration - but repos are still being created and a move isn't much different
23:39:57 <rudi> Probably :)
23:40:12 <ke4qqq> but the freezes should freeze us just for common sense
23:41:20 <rudi> To return to jjmcd_'s earlier question, though, does anyone here *not* want to see "one docs group to rule them all"?
23:41:45 <jjmcd_> well, what do you mean by that?  Commit droup or subdir
23:41:51 <jjmcd_> group sheesh
23:42:12 <rudi> Let's say commit group
23:42:17 <jjmcd_> I absolutely think docs/ makes sense.  I have some thoughts on commit group, tho
23:42:27 <jjmcd_> Not convinced
23:42:49 <rudi> OK -- so this is why you wanted earlier to discuss these as two separate issues
23:42:53 <jjmcd_> I think the progression ..members, commit, publish -- gives new members a feeling of accomplishment
23:43:11 <jjmcd_> Plus, knowing that the damage they can do is limited, they aren't quite so nervous
23:43:31 <jjmcd_> Now, with git,  the damage is limited anyway, but it is comforting to have this well defined sandbox
23:43:46 <ardchoille> As a new member, I agree with that
23:43:56 <jjmcd_> Certainly, one commit group is a lot easier to manage
23:44:20 <jjmcd_> And the fact is, I haven't seen any new folks I wouldn't trust with that.  But getting into this business is intimidating
23:44:28 <jjmcd_> thanks ardchoille
23:45:24 <jjmcd_> </rant>
23:45:58 <ke4qqq> so the benefits are - it's easier for us to get someone sponsored (eg lower barrier to entry)
23:46:25 <jjmcd_> lower perceived barrier, probably more than real
23:46:33 <ke4qqq> it makes it easier for others already established in a pinch
23:46:45 <jjmcd_> yep
23:46:53 <ke4qqq> well we've seen the real barrier when we've had weekend hackfests and people aren't in groups
23:46:58 <jjmcd_> But that could be solved b being more gneraous with sponsors
23:46:59 <ke4qqq> and we have to scramble to find sponsors
23:47:02 <ke4qqq> yes
23:47:04 <ardchoille> The less intimidating you can make things for new users, the better
23:47:41 <jjmcd_> exactly ... it was very hard for me to get started.  Very scary at times
23:47:52 <Emad78> There was a lot of work for you guys to get me sponsored for the bug stomping.
23:48:04 <ke4qqq> having everyone have access to all repos doesn't scare me, but if it scares new contribs - that might be a downside - dn't want them to feel scared - though we have that problem
23:48:08 <Emad78> You did a good job though. :)
23:48:31 <jjmcd_> And we could solve Emad78's problem by having lots of sponsors
23:48:49 <ardchoille> Well, I am a bit nervous having access to something that can affect such a large project. "what if I make a mistake?", things like that
23:49:16 <stickster> +1 for generous sponsors.
23:49:28 <jjmcd_> We have had a raft of new folks lately and I think I've seen some of that in all of them
23:49:41 <stickster> I would even say, once someone has done a few commits and pushes, they can just as easily be a sponsor too.
23:49:55 <jjmcd_> yes
23:50:11 <jjmcd_> once they understand the space, then having them be a sponsor is an asset
23:50:20 <ardchoille> Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to be a part of this and love working with good people, but just wanted you to know the feeling is there. I'm sure it will dissipate in time.
23:50:45 <ke4qqq> so maybe a rule of thumb needs to be that all guide/notes/document owners need to be sponsors on all others at a minimum (not wanting to create 'rules' per se)
23:51:14 <jjmcd_> ke4qqq, that sounds like a pretty good guideline to me
23:51:19 <ke4qqq> and maybe that solves our problems
23:51:22 <ke4qqq> without the downsides
23:51:35 <ke4qqq> of overwhelming new contribs
23:51:49 <rudi> ke4qqq -- could you please make that suggestion on f-d-l as well?
23:51:56 <ardchoille> ke4qqq:  I like that
23:52:03 * rudi likes it too
23:52:21 <ke4qqq> sure
23:52:27 <jjmcd_> ardchoille, you just don't realize how quickly you might become a guide owner ;)
23:52:48 <rudi> #action -- ke4qqq to suggest on f-d-l that all guide owners become sponsors on all other guides
23:52:49 <ke4qqq> jjmcd_: yep - we've had a new contributor go from intro to guide owner in less than 45 days
23:53:09 <rudi> Nearly out of time here folks, so I'll move on if I may
23:53:22 <rudi> #topic Bugs list
23:53:29 <jjmcd_> you're nearly out of agenda, too!
23:53:38 <rudi> #link https://bugzilla.redhat.com/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&classification=Fedora&product=Fedora%20Documentation&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED <-- 86 bugs here
23:53:51 <rudi> jjmcd_ -- yay!
23:54:15 <rudi> With most guides in L10N now, we can probably only address any showstoppers amongst these
23:54:33 <rudi> But of course, we can keep fixing stuff in master branches
23:54:53 <rudi> Anything else we need to note about Bugs?
23:55:15 <jjmcd_> Most of the RN bugs are F12 bugs I might get on, probably won't fixe the F11
23:56:42 <rudi> Looks like a big chunk of the total count are DG bugs that perspectival is using to track his progress
23:56:49 <rudi> OK then...
23:56:53 <rudi> #topic all other business
23:57:05 <rudi> Anyone got anything?
23:57:07 * noriko has one
23:57:40 <rudi> Go for it
23:57:48 * stickster thinks rudi did a great job running the meeting, thank you!
23:57:53 <rudi> Thanks :)
23:58:05 <noriko> sorry rolling back to RN..
23:58:07 <noriko> http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/trans/2010-May/007584.html
23:58:18 <noriko> can someone attend this?
23:58:56 <jjmcd_> The CZ translation has been there, although it has been broke for some time now
23:59:13 <jjmcd_> There is some sort of error introduced in the po files
23:59:27 <jjmcd_> but on the draft website, there is a log file with the error
23:59:28 * rudi will troubleshoot and get it building
23:59:57 <rudi> #action rudi to troubleshoot cs-CZ RN
00:00:01 <jjmcd_> Thnaks rudi.  I think that one is one of a handful at 100% that broke, and I never got back to fix them
00:00:10 <rudi> Thanks Noriko!
00:00:16 <noriko> thanks rudi
00:00:46 <jjmcd_> &PRODVER missing a ;
00:00:57 <noriko> aha
00:01:12 <jjmcd_> noriko, whenever they don't build the error is the last thing in the log
00:01:17 <jjmcd_> which is there instead of the doc
00:01:37 <rudi> So in the minute we've got left, I'll just report that converting d.fp.o to Publican-2.0 style is progressing apace; the biggest issue has been converting legacy docs; but I've nearly got that beat now
00:01:58 <rudi> Installing the publicanized docs f10 onwards will be a breeze
00:02:20 <rudi> #link -- http://publictest8.fedoraproject.org/fedoradocs/public_html/en-US/index.html
00:02:28 <jjmcd_> cool.  Does that make the reorganizing of docs/web.git a moot issue?
00:02:48 <rudi> Reminder that tech demo is available at that URL and that feedback on the "Welcome" text is... welcome :)
00:03:05 <rudi> jjmcd_ -- a slightly different issue again :)
00:03:54 <rudi> Feel free to bail me up in irc or on the list with questions and issues :)
00:04:04 <rudi> Anyone else with anything?
00:05:10 <rudi> OK then...
00:05:29 <rudi> stickster, jjmcd_ -- how do I turn this thing off? :)
00:05:36 <stickster> #endmeeting