01:00:27 <StabbyMc> #startmeeting 01:00:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Mar 17 01:00:27 2010 UTC. The chair is StabbyMc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 01:00:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 01:00:37 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - Announcements 01:00:47 <StabbyMc> Welcome everyone. 01:00:53 <Arsenick> .fas Arsenick 01:00:55 <adamw> hi 01:00:55 <dnhodgson> .fas dnhodgson 01:00:56 <Arsenick> Hi 01:00:57 <zodbot> Arsenick: arsenick 'René Jr Purcell' <rene.purcell@gmail.com> 01:00:59 <StabbyMc> Anyone got announcements? 01:01:01 <zodbot> dnhodgson: dnhodgson 'Darcy Hodgson' <dnhodgson@gmail.com> 01:01:02 <mock> .fas mock 01:01:06 <zodbot> mock: actown 'Derrick Dymock' <actown@gmail.com> - mock 'mark mcintyre' <mark@mockgeek.com> - mocker '' <marin.julian@gmail.com> 01:01:06 <Actown> .fas Ac-town 01:01:09 <zodbot> Actown: actown 'Derrick Dymock' <actown@gmail.com> 01:01:09 <crossbytes> .fas crossbytes 01:01:14 <zodbot> crossbytes: crossbytes 'Kevin Higgins' <Kevin@crossbytes.org> 01:01:18 <djf_jeff> .fas jfsaucier 01:01:19 <zodbot> djf_jeff: jfsaucier 'Jean-Francois Saucier' <jfsaucier@infoglobe.ca> 01:01:45 <dnhodgson> I have something. Might have been brought up before but not sure. 01:01:51 * inode0 had a quick announcement ... 01:02:00 <StabbyMc> dnhodgson: go, then inode0 01:02:12 <dnhodgson> bought a copy of linux pro magazine and fedora 12 was the feature DVD. just thought it was cool. 01:02:49 <dnhodgson> Also wondered if that was something that we setup with them or if the magazine just does that 01:02:59 <grantbow_> .fas grantbow 01:03:03 <zodbot> grantbow_: grantbow 'Grant Bowman' <grantbow@gmail.com> 01:03:40 <jetrigger> .fas cwtucker 01:03:41 <zodbot> jetrigger: cwtucker 'Chris W Tucker' <cwtucker@ironcomm.com> 01:03:50 <StabbyMc> dnhodgson: dunno, anyone else have any ideas? 01:04:22 <inode0> marketing might know something 01:04:44 <StabbyMc> inode0: you got an announcement as well? 01:04:51 <inode0> FreeMedia requests are in for March and we need some help processing about 20 that remain now, so please help 01:05:11 <StabbyMc> inode0: copy that. 01:05:16 <crossbytes> I will be getting on a few tonight and this weekend should 01:05:18 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - FreeMedia in North America Reminder 01:05:23 <StabbyMc> inode0: now paste it! 01:05:24 <crossbytes> ba able to fill about 5-6 01:06:02 <MarkDude> .fas markdude 01:06:04 * inode0 suggests we talk with adamw now so he doesn't need to suffer through our usual stuff :) 01:06:06 <zodbot> MarkDude: markdude 'Mark Terranova' <mark@gidgetkitchen.org> 01:06:08 <MarkDude> MarkDude: markdude <mark@gidgetkitchen.org> 01:06:17 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - Fedora Test Days 01:06:25 <StabbyMc> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Fedora_13_test_days 01:06:28 <rrix> .fas rrix 01:06:29 <zodbot> rrix: rrix 'Ryan Rix' <ry@n.rix.si> 01:06:43 <StabbyMc> Adamw, the floor is yours. 01:07:02 <adamw> oh, yay :) 01:07:03 <inode0> well, he might not have expected that 01:07:09 <adamw> remind me what you wanted me to say exactly? 01:07:19 <adamw> i just sort of got notified to show up to provide info on test days 01:07:36 <adamw> you just want a quick run-down on the what, why, where and how? 01:07:38 <StabbyMc> Ok, for those of us who don't know, what is test days? 01:07:42 <adamw> alright! 01:07:44 <inode0> someone suggested ambassadors get involved in test days, can you give us a quick rundown on what that involves? 01:07:57 * grantbow_ cheers for testing 01:08:03 <adamw> oh, first off 01:08:05 <adamw> .fas adamwill 01:08:09 <zodbot> adamw: adamwilltest 'Adam Williamson (test)' <adamwill@shaw.ca> - adamwill 'Adam Williamson' <awilliam@redhat.com> 01:08:27 <adamw> for those who don't know me - i'm Adam Williamson, I work for Red Hat in the Fedora QA team, and I'm kinda sorta in charge of the whole test day thing. 01:08:49 <adamw> test days are really just events aimed at doing planned testing on some specific thing; it could be anything, it doesn't even have to be software. 01:09:13 <adamw> the QA group organizes a track of Test Days for each release, and we've also had other groups use the 'test day' format in the past for their own events 01:09:29 <adamw> the F13 Test Day schedule is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Fedora_13_test_days , so you can see what's coming up (and what we've done so far) 01:09:43 <adamw> the last completed test day - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2010-03-11_webcams - is a good example of a typical event 01:10:16 <crossbytes> ? about 'f13 livecd' 01:10:16 <adamw> the web page just explains what the event is supposed to be testing - webcams, in this case - provides instructions on testing, notes the IRC channel where testers can come to interact in real time, and provides a space for reporting results. 01:10:19 <adamw> yup! 01:10:46 <adamw> crossbytes: go ahead 01:10:56 <crossbytes> the live cd is to big for cd is it going to be dvd? 01:11:21 <crossbytes> and are we going to be getting id of mono? 01:11:25 <inode0> let's come back to that later 01:11:32 <adamw> that seems separate from test day topic...yeah thanks inode0 :) 01:11:46 <adamw> okay, carrying on... 01:12:19 <adamw> as I said, test days can be organized in various different ways. we encourage people to suggest test day topics, and then they can either arrange the event themselves (and we in QA provide support), or we will arrange it for them, depending on what they want 01:12:33 <adamw> there is an SOP explaining how to run a test day event: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/SOP_Test_Day_management 01:13:00 <adamw> that explains how to put one together from start to finish if you want to run one yourself. i've heard that projects that have nothing to do with fedora have used the process to organize testing events, which is obviously cool. 01:13:36 <adamw> we mostly use test days to do regular testing on really important things (like graphics support), and to test the new features of upcoming releases - but we've done other types in the past too, it's a very open-ended system. 01:14:00 <adamw> i guess the most relevant things to ambassadors are: we're always happy to take suggestions for test day topics, and we absolutely love people to come out and help test 01:14:06 <adamw> so anything you can do to help drive that would be great 01:14:17 <inode0> so for those of us just starting ... 01:14:30 <adamw> we try to keep the bar for getting involved as low as possible - wherever it's practical we set up the testing so you can do it just from a live boot, and we provide step-by-step instructions for testing for most events 01:14:31 <inode0> we can grab a live rawhide image the day of the testing? 01:14:46 <adamw> yes. well, it's a live Branched image now, really 01:14:54 <adamw> (since Branched - f13 at present - and Rawhide aren't the same thing any more) 01:14:57 <inode0> bug people for anything that isn't clear on IRC 01:15:18 <adamw> yup. you just go to the web page, read the instructions, run the tests, and add your results to the table, and IRC is there for any questions or problems 01:15:40 <adamw> we usually aim to have at least one QA person and one developer of the component being tested present on IRC during the official test day period 01:15:59 * lcafiero_ sneaks into the back of the room and sits down. 01:16:00 <jetrigger> seems pretty straightforward 01:16:02 <adamw> hey larry 01:16:13 <inode0> in two days we'll find out 01:16:15 <lcafiero_> hey adamw 01:16:32 <adamw> jetrigger: yup, that's the aim. occasionally we do run test days on advanced topics that wind up being mostly Red Hat staff, but you can usually spot those a mile off 01:16:46 <adamw> when you don't know what the name of the test day means and you can't understand the instructions for the simplest test case =) 01:17:03 <jetrigger> k 01:17:19 <adamw> the one coming up this thursday is an interesting one - if you're an enterprise person with a crazy fibre channel SAN storage setup you could get together with davidz and do some really intense testing 01:17:30 <adamw> but there'll also be simple tests anyone with a hard disk can do 01:18:07 <adamw> the one coming up this thursday is https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Test_Day:2010-03-18_Palimpsest , for reference. 01:18:18 <VileGent> adamw, as i told jlaska today i will start help testing this week 01:18:18 <adamw> i'm being lazy and haven't got around to adding the test cases yet, but they'll be there tomorrow. 01:18:24 <adamw> VileGent: thanks! 01:18:44 <adamw> the 'official' QA track test days usually come every thursday 01:18:57 <adamw> if we fill up the schedule but need to add events, we overflow onto tuesdays 01:19:08 <adamw> and I usually do a 'graphics testing week' with three test days for each of the most common graphics drivers 01:19:40 <adamw> test days are always announced to the test-announce and devel mailing lists, and in FWN, and on my blog (which is on planet.fp.o) - any further news-spreading you folks can do is also very welcome :) 01:19:44 <VileGent> adamw, will the palimpset test for in vms 01:20:17 <adamw> VileGent: sure, you could do the testing in a VM. it can be useful to test specific LVM or RAID setups if you don't have the appropriate physical hardware. physical hardware testing is also useful, of course. 01:20:53 <VileGent> 2 vms are easier to use that 2 boxes 01:20:59 <adamw> so, that's the overview talk - any questions? 01:21:00 <VileGent> than 01:21:40 * inode0 has a non-test day question 01:21:44 <jetrigger> This can be done at any time during the day? 01:22:09 <adamw> jetrigger: yep. you can also do the testing earlier or later and add your results to the table, it can still be useful info. the 'day' is just the time when we aim to gather people on IRC, really. 01:22:26 <adamw> but if you can't make it on the day, we're always happy for you to do the testing the day before or after and add your results. 01:22:30 <jetrigger> adamw: thanks, count me in 01:22:48 <inode0> so if I did the webcam testing now someone would notice? :) 01:23:24 <adamw> inode0: we may not notice too loudly if everything worked, but then we wouldn't really need to; if you hit a problem we'd notice that and you'd hopefully file a bug and it'd get followed up 01:23:37 <adamw> all you'd be missing out on is having hansg in the same IRC room to get a quick feedback loop going :) 01:24:33 <inode0> anything else on test days before I wander down another path? 01:24:45 <crossbytes> and is there a wiki on how to file bug reports? 01:25:15 <adamw> crossbytes: yup, I believe it's actually linked on each test day 01:25:25 <crossbytes> ok thank you.. 01:25:47 <adamw> hmm, actually, it isn't in there, i'm sure i used to include the link. i may have dropped it inadvertently from the template 01:26:04 <adamw> anyway, it's https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/BugsAndFeatureRequests : that's generic instructions on filing a bug 01:26:14 <adamw> if there's specific information for the particular test day, we include that on the wiki page 01:27:03 <inode0> adamw: I wanted to take this opportunity to also ask for some general information about the QA team, if interested how does one join? Any particular sort of contributors you need help finding? 01:27:50 <adamw> great questions 01:28:06 <adamw> i have a whole talk on the general QA sphere but it's a bit long to go through here =) 01:28:16 <adamw> we have a pretty good wiki space at http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA 01:28:36 <adamw> i'd particularly point you to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Join , which gives an overview of the most important things the QA team does and how to get involved in each 01:28:58 <adamw> anything you folks can do to encourage people to join QA would be just awesome 01:29:18 <adamw> one thing in particular we'd love to have more people doing is testing updates: see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Updates_Testing 01:29:40 <adamw> you can also do that for the upcoming release, now: as I mentioned earlier, we changed the release process from f13 onwards 01:29:55 <adamw> most of the time, 'the next release' (currently f13) and 'rawhide' are now separate things 01:30:25 <adamw> and 'the next release' (otherwise known as 'Branched') should hopefully be less crazy than Rawhide, so if you're reasonably competent you should be able to run it without too much trouble 01:30:26 <VileGent> yep branch rawhide when needed 01:30:55 <adamw> so right now you could install f13 Alpha and just install updates as usual, and you'll be getting the latest f13 stuff; Rawhide is separate, that's working towards f14, and you won't get that stuff 01:31:25 <adamw> you can then file feedback on the new f13 packages via Bodhi, just as you already could for final release updates, as described on the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA/Updates_Testing page 01:31:42 <adamw> so yeah, doing 'updates testing' for already-released Fedoras, or upcoming Fedora 13, is one thing in particular we'd love to have more people do. 01:32:33 <adamw> the 'test' mailing list is used for QA stuff, so if you're interested in joining in, have a read of the wiki page and also sign up for the test list - https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test 01:33:04 <adamw> major qa events and things we want people to help out with get announced on there. there's a 'test-announce' list which only gets announcements, too, if 'test' is too high traffic for you (it gets about 50-80 mails a day, usually). 01:34:33 <inode0> thanks a bunch for helping us get our bearings a bit with QA tonight 01:34:36 <adamw> sure 01:34:52 <StabbyMc> thanks adamw :-) 01:34:57 <adamw> oh, one other thing - QA also works with releng and devel to handle the release process, and we're always keen for people to catch bugs that ought to block the releases 01:35:01 <lcafiero_> thanks adamw -- see you at lfnw 01:35:28 <crossbytes> thank u adamw 01:35:33 <adamw> so if you're seeing a really bad bug in an upcoming release, please do nominate it as a blocker. you can do that by setting it as blocking 'F13Beta' or 'F13Blocker' (depending on whether you think it should block the beta or final release) 01:36:19 <adamw> there are official criteria we go by to decide whether bugs really are blockers or not - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Release_Criteria - but don't worry too much about those, as we do review all nominated bugs; we'd much rather have 'false alarms' than miss a bug that should have been caught 01:36:47 <adamw> if you nominate a bug that we decide isn't really a blocker, we'll just catch it at a weekly review meeting and drop it from the list, no harm done, and we don't send someone over to kill you. usually ;) 01:37:28 <StabbyMc> Just don't have mispellings or bad grammar, lcafiero will block you ;-) 01:37:39 <adamw> obviously for future releases the blockers will be 'F14Alpha', 'F14Beta', 'F14Blocker', 'F15Alpha' and so on - the names are always the same format 01:38:03 <lcafiero_> +1 StabbyMc 01:38:05 <adamw> alright, i'm really done now =) 01:38:09 <grantbow_> thanks adamw 01:38:19 <StabbyMc> adamw +1 01:38:37 <inode0> with luck you'll see a few new people thursday 01:38:51 <adamw> thanks for inviting me! 01:39:36 <StabbyMc> Ok, one of my new goals is to have the meetings last no more than 1 hour. 01:39:37 * inode0 needs a few minutes before the regularly scheduled program but start without him 01:39:43 <StabbyMc> So let's roll :-) 01:39:48 <adamw> StabbyMc: sorry =) 01:39:49 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - Events 01:39:49 <lcafiero_> .fas lcafiero 01:39:50 <zodbot> lcafiero_: lcafiero 'Larry Cafiero' <larrycafiero@cruzio.com> 01:39:54 <lcafiero_> just to make it official 01:40:09 <StabbyMc> adamw: no it was not meant as a dig on you, more on the longwindedness of us for the remaining items :-) 01:40:19 <StabbyMc> Ok, so Events. 01:40:31 <StabbyMc> Anyone doing an event that doesn't have something they need? 01:41:20 <StabbyMc> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents 01:41:26 <StabbyMc> Make sure you log 'em. 01:41:50 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - Budget Review 01:42:08 <StabbyMc> I don't know that we have outstanding budget items, do we? 01:42:30 <VileGent> tshirts?? 01:42:49 <StabbyMc> is bpowell here? 01:42:56 <StabbyMc> Or maybe inode0 has talked to him recently? 01:43:37 <StabbyMc> I'll ask inode0 again when he returns. 01:43:44 <StabbyMc> Any other budget? 01:43:49 * inode0 is back 01:43:55 <StabbyMc> tee shirts? 01:44:03 <VileGent> max said the event box for Canada was shipped 01:44:09 <lcafiero_> +1 01:44:45 <StabbyMc> inode0: you heard from bpowell about tees ? 01:44:52 <inode0> I haven't heard anything more about t-shirts but Brian should have received the go ahead to order them 01:45:14 <inode0> What about stickers? 01:45:42 <StabbyMc> inovice should have been paid, now just waiting for them to ship from the vendor. 01:45:46 <inode0> I would like to make one suggestion just for people to think about wrt shipping/warehousing stuff 01:46:37 <inode0> We have a small number of people who have been doing this for years now but I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that at least some of them would appreciate a break from it 01:47:05 <inode0> So if you would be willing to help out please don't be bashful 01:47:28 <inode0> One of the best things about our swag procurement is that the load is spread out 01:47:49 <inode0> And if we could spread out the shipping of it as well I think we'd suffer less burnout 01:47:56 <Arsenick> VileGent, yes and we recieved it 01:48:14 <inode0> Arsenick: did you receive the netbook too? 01:48:22 <Arsenick> not yet 01:48:33 <Arsenick> I don't know if it's on the way 01:49:45 * inode0 would like to talk to TLF folks but that can be post-meeting 01:50:13 <StabbyMc> #topic NA Ambassadors Meeting - Unfinished Business 01:50:26 <StabbyMc> inode0: if it fits in here, and is less than 10 minutes, we're good. 01:50:47 <inode0> ok, related but general question 01:51:00 <inode0> how do we feel about sharing booth space with Red Hat at events? 01:51:17 <lcafiero_> I thought there was a legal issue preventing us from doing so. 01:51:21 <lcafiero_> This came up last year at OSCON 01:51:25 * inode0 has an opinion but would like to hear others :) 01:51:45 <StabbyMc> inode0: I would imagine that brand would have a problem with that. 01:51:59 <StabbyMc> And I don't think it would help us to estabilsh our independence... 01:52:06 <inode0> let's assume for right now that it is entirely our choice 01:52:49 <inode0> and this isn't out of the blue, we were asked to consider it at TLF 01:53:00 <lcafiero_> If it were our choice, I'd say stay separate, for the reasons StabbyMc brings up 01:53:31 <lcafiero_> Again, it came up at OSCON, and Red Hat was not fond of the idea, to put it mildly. 01:53:35 <inode0> I generally agree I think it confuses already confused branding 01:53:48 <inode0> redhat requested it this time as I understand it 01:53:57 <lcafiero_> In fact, I had to sit in a corner with a pointy hat for even bringing it up 01:54:08 <grantbow_> wow 01:54:14 <inode0> well, that was you asking to share *their* booth 01:54:16 <lcafiero_> not really, grantbow_ 01:54:23 <inode0> that is different :) 01:54:58 <inode0> ok, second part of this is what do we think about booth proximity? 01:55:04 <lcafiero_> It does blur the distinction between Fedora and Red Hat. 01:55:15 <inode0> for branding I'd assume not next door neighbors again 01:55:16 <lcafiero_> Red Hat and Fedora were next to each other at SCALE 01:55:46 <lcafiero_> Don't know how that happened 01:55:53 <inode0> now let me just suggest one reason to consider it 01:56:03 <lcafiero_> I don't think neighbors was as bad as sharing 01:56:25 <inode0> every time I see a picture of a redhat booth at a community event it is a lonely redhat guy sitting at the table 01:56:27 <lcafiero_> some snickered at our placement -- or theirs -- but it's not the same as being in the same booth 01:56:41 <inode0> that may be a bit of a misperception but it is my perception 01:56:56 <lcafiero_> Not a misperception, inode0 -- I see it all the time 01:57:16 <inode0> would we be helping Red Hat by getting some of our traffic to their booth? 01:57:40 <lcafiero_> It's not a huge issue with me, but I can see where having a joint booth can make our work harder in establishing that we're not Red Hat. 01:57:53 <lcafiero_> Or our people. 01:58:07 <lcafiero_> quaid staffed the RH booth at SCALE on Sunday, I think 01:58:39 <crossbytes> +1 lcafiero 01:58:58 <StabbyMc> pfriends staffed the RH booth at SELF. 01:58:59 <VileGent> and i and vwbusguy staffed the redhat booth on saturday 01:59:19 * inode0 hears little support for Fedora and Red Hat being booth buddies 01:59:37 <crossbytes> I like the neighbors can send people to RH booth for RH questions and they can do the same for us.. 01:59:44 <VileGent> i have no problem with it 01:59:51 <lcafiero_> Well, again, I have no objection, just the caveat 02:00:19 <VileGent> nn 02:00:21 <inode0> I think it reinforces the "Fedora is Red Hat's little beta distro" thing 02:00:22 <lcafiero_> And the experience that RH really tore into the suggestion that we do it for OSCON when there was the possibility we would be shut out 02:00:56 <StabbyMc> inode0: that's my thought as well. 02:01:40 <inode0> ok, if anyone wants to give me more feedback on that later feel free to 02:01:47 <lcafiero_> OK 02:01:55 <StabbyMc> Ok, I'm going to call it. 02:01:58 <StabbyMc> 5 02:02:09 <StabbyMc> 4 02:02:14 * lcafiero_ hears an air raid siren -- 7 p.m. in Felton 02:02:18 <StabbyMc> 3 02:02:26 <StabbyMc> 2 02:02:32 <StabbyMc> 1 02:02:37 <StabbyMc> #endmeeting