20:05:22 <asamaras> #startmeeting
20:05:22 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Nov 24 20:05:22 2009 UTC.  The chair is asamaras. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:05:22 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:06:06 <mchua> rbergeron: perfect timing!
20:06:07 * rbergeron waves
20:06:10 <asamaras> welcome all
20:06:16 <mchua> Fedora Marketing user stories sprint time :)
20:06:18 * sdziallas looks
20:06:21 * mchua turns the floor over to asamaras
20:06:31 <mchua> asamaras: it's all yours :) tell us what to do!
20:07:11 <asamaras> I have put up a small wiki to write success (and failure) stories
20:07:40 <asamaras> the scope is to address basiclly non-so-technical audience
20:08:02 <asamaras> and provide at the same time info for more technical persons
20:08:46 <asamaras> the failures are to serve a scope of what-went-wrong kind of thing
20:09:18 <asamaras> wile success to expose some of the not-so-well-known application that Fedora may have
20:09:27 <rbergeron> like a ... what-went-wrong to feed to engineering? or to feed to other users in their usage
20:09:34 <mchua> So we're writing small case studies of "this-person-used-Fedora-for-that, and this is what happened"?
20:09:37 <asamaras> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Asamaras/Fedora_Success_stories
20:10:33 <asamaras> actually is more lice creating a "honney pot" for those who are not quite clear about Fedora
20:11:07 <asamaras> also the jurnalists can use it to write stories
20:11:36 <asamaras> "Fedora is a community " message can also be stated here
20:11:52 <asamaras> via the failed attemps,
20:12:30 <asamaras> at the same time maybe a basic methodology (approach) can be given via success stories highliting the "DO"
20:12:49 <asamaras> and analizing the failures will include the "DO NOT"
20:13:03 <asamaras> in a more popular way
20:13:19 <asamaras> I wrote in two diffrent ways
20:13:46 <asamaras> a clear cut for those who would more likely to look for a how-to and a methodology
20:14:00 <mizmo> asamaras: are you looking for personal stories about Fedora usage?
20:14:13 <asamaras> and the second one as an illustration for more popular approach
20:14:23 <asamaras> mishti, if possible yes
20:14:49 <asamaras> in this way the press will know how and whom to contact
20:14:56 <asamaras> for interviews
20:15:01 <rbergeron> mizmo: when asamaras is done or at a break point can you talk a little about the stuff you're doing and how this ties in a bit :) plz
20:15:08 <mizmo> rbergeron: sure
20:15:47 <asamaras> so the main target audience (at least for me) are jurnalist and Ambasadors
20:16:29 <asamaras> secondary target audience I feel are the IT consultants that have some not-so-clean picture of Fedora
20:16:48 <asamaras> then the end-users (users/sysadmins)
20:16:57 <rbergeron> asamaras: do you think it would be wise to maybe call it something more... umm.. marketing-friendly other than "failures"
20:17:00 <asamaras> and finaly system architects
20:17:11 <asamaras> no problem
20:17:15 <rbergeron> not that i have any offhand suggestions
20:17:33 <rbergeron> but "failures" in big bold font as a subject just seems like it's a little ugly :)
20:17:45 <asamaras> take a hint : [edit] It's a Blue Monday
20:18:29 <asamaras> so let's call them missed approaches?
20:18:52 <rbergeron> i mean, ideally we'd want them to wind up being succcess stories... just with a little longer path than expected
20:19:06 <rbergeron> biertie: i had a difficult time but the fedora community helped me pull through
20:19:13 <rbergeron> yikes, sorry
20:19:19 * rbergeron curses her irc client again
20:19:27 <asamaras> np
20:19:42 <rbergeron> i mean, if it's a difficult problem
20:19:57 <rbergeron> maybe it's something that needs to be passed on to engineering, if it's a common use case
20:20:06 <asamaras> #action change failures to something else
20:20:09 <rbergeron> bugzillas, whatever
20:20:24 <asamaras> we can brainstorm on it
20:20:37 <rbergeron> we should definitely consider taking the ... not so successful stories
20:20:40 <asamaras> for the time I am describing the "why" part
20:20:56 <rbergeron> and going through the full loop and not just making a story out of it, but really also solve the root cause
20:21:01 <rbergeron> okay, i'll let you talk :) sorry
20:21:26 <asamaras> and a success story is something that any commercial marketing would press
20:22:00 <asamaras> but including "failures" we enable those who
20:22:09 <asamaras> simply could not do something
20:22:25 <asamaras> at the same time we convert them into active members of community
20:22:56 <asamaras> and we could go and create some discussions on how the success could be achieved
20:23:43 <asamaras> this could be done by a billboard having a topic about the hard-to-solve stories
20:23:48 <mchua> Should we start writing and see where we get?
20:24:02 <asamaras> well I guess now it is a good time to ask for your oppinion
20:24:39 <asamaras> as soon as we decide on the basics that each story has to have
20:24:50 <rbergeron> where are we soliciting these end-users from, and are we sorting them by...function?
20:25:03 <rbergeron> desktop, sysadmin, developer, etc
20:25:23 <asamaras> #idea group the stories
20:25:57 <rbergeron> i think it would be interesting to do a "i'm a developer and here's my success story on getting my open source project / package / whatever into fedora
20:25:59 <rbergeron> "
20:26:15 <mchua> Ooh, that's a neat idea too!
20:26:17 <rbergeron> success story of working with the community, not just success on how i used fedora
20:26:42 * mchua is curious what specific stories people are thinking about writing
20:26:48 <asamaras> I also would like to have some IT consultants :)
20:26:59 <rbergeron> and also a "i'm a developer and here's how great f12 was out of the box for developing xyz"
20:27:20 <asamaras> #idea developers stories
20:27:25 <rbergeron> but i think it's important that we're getting... let's call them
20:27:29 <rbergeron> inexperienced fedora users?
20:27:52 <rbergeron> or at least
20:27:58 <rbergeron> not me interviewing mchua for example
20:28:01 <rbergeron> that seems slightly biased :)
20:28:24 * rbergeron had a crazy idea earlier about doing fedora taste tests or something
20:28:38 <asamaras> something like "Just born in this world?"
20:29:12 <rbergeron> getting people who haven't used fedora before, or not for a while, to see if it would meet their needs the way their current os does
20:29:20 * rbergeron puts that on the backburner brain-dump list
20:29:48 <asamaras> rbergeron, this is why I would like to see more IT there
20:30:02 <asamaras> you see usually they design a solution
20:30:19 <asamaras> rather than going for a out-of-the-box
20:30:43 * mchua was going to write a user story about www.olin.edu/it/documents/Linux/fc9-relnotes.pdf
20:31:02 <mchua> the Linux admin at my college made a custom version of Fedora to dual-boot all the student (engineering) computers on
20:31:12 <rbergeron> yes, but... usually "designing a solution" seems like it might be a one-off implementation of something wacky that people might not relate to
20:31:16 <rbergeron> so while that's important
20:31:17 <asamaras> I would love to see stories like the second one stating that there is way for windowed enviromnet to take advantage of Fedora's goods
20:31:23 <rbergeron> to show that fedora has varying capabilities etc
20:31:38 <rbergeron> i think other stories like... i switched my whole mail server to fedora
20:31:39 <rbergeron> or something
20:31:42 <asamaras> rbergeron, totally aggreed
20:31:43 <rbergeron> that is more... relatable
20:31:48 <rbergeron> is good too
20:32:08 <rbergeron> what might be a good idea
20:32:17 <asamaras> you see in my story I used VM to keep an Active Directory alive
20:32:18 <rbergeron> is to comeup with a list of possible scenarios
20:32:20 <rbergeron> of end-usage
20:32:26 <rbergeron> and solicit that way
20:32:27 <rbergeron> like
20:32:27 <mchua> rbergeron, asamaras: perhaps a good deliverable for this sprint would be a list of stories - or types of stories - we'd like to write over the course of F13, and to start writing one each
20:32:36 <rbergeron> "thinking of fedora for XYZ? you're a fit for this interview"
20:32:54 <rbergeron> mchua: i see we're on the same wavelength
20:33:11 <rbergeron> and also solicit "using fedora for something new and exciting? let us show you the light"
20:33:22 <rbergeron> for things that aren't necessarily out of the box
20:33:35 <rbergeron> i think it's good to show that general scenarios do work out of the box
20:33:37 <mchua> asamaras: with the stories that you've written so far serving as really good examples for the people who come to write things on that list
20:33:42 <rbergeron> and that it's not some crazy sprint
20:33:57 <rbergeron> where you're doing heavy lifting to do something that should be simple
20:34:44 <asamaras> #action create  list of stories - or types of stories
20:35:27 <asamaras> still we have to maintain it reasonably popular
20:35:53 <mizmo> choirboy (thomas cameron) told me his 4 year old daughter uses Fedora and he'd be happy to share her story if its useful to you folks
20:35:54 <asamaras> it's marketing not pure and hard core technical
20:36:28 <asamaras> THIS IS IT mizmo the best "user friendly" story
20:37:19 <asamaras> ask him to share his story
20:37:36 <asamaras> it would go under end-user section
20:38:14 * mchua notes we've got 25m left in the sprint - do we want to aim for that list of stories?
20:38:16 <asamaras> I will also ask for contribution by other web-programmers
20:39:38 <asamaras> well let's categorize them
20:39:41 <rbergeron> let's do that, i think it's a good idea
20:39:49 <asamaras> a quick question for all
20:39:54 <mchua> yep?
20:40:19 <asamaras> users/sysadmins/developers/ITs
20:40:23 <asamaras> or
20:41:00 <asamaras> Everyday stories / Yet another server / Less code more functionality
20:41:08 <asamaras> type of categorization?
20:41:56 <rbergeron> i like the users / sysadmins / developers idea
20:42:03 <mchua> +1
20:42:08 <rbergeron> since it ties in with how fedora release notes / highlights are written
20:42:10 <mchua> we'll put it on a wiki so we can adjust if needed ;)
20:42:16 <mchua> story brainstorm time?
20:42:22 <asamaras> ok then
20:42:34 <asamaras> yep
20:43:36 <asamaras> maybe create yet one for plans (we pan to do this this way) also?
20:43:46 <rbergeron> start with users, i guess?
20:44:10 <asamaras> why not
20:44:35 <asamaras> but on the other hand sysadmins are easier (we all have something cool to say)
20:44:42 <mchua> asamaras: try changing the topic so we have a clear start/end of the brainstorm in the logs
20:44:49 <mchua> asamaras: #topic Brainstorm Start
20:44:58 <asamaras> #topic Brainstorm Start
20:45:02 <mchua> cool :)
20:45:05 <asamaras> thnaks mchua
20:45:23 <asamaras> thanks that is
20:45:31 <mchua> let's just put out all our ideas for the next... asamaras, how long do you want to do this, 5 m? and then step back and see where we stand
20:45:41 <rbergeron> so for users, i think that something like a college student using fedora / OO to write papers and do research might be good
20:46:02 <asamaras> sure mchua I think 5 min are a good estimate
20:46:09 <rbergeron> kids at home playing internet-based games... maybe someone putting together a cheap workstation for their kids etc.
20:46:27 <mchua> * Olinux - college sysadmin created custom version of Fedora for dual-booting all engineering student laptops (both an IT story and a student-user/new-user story)
20:46:28 <asamaras> also OO project management and Database are cool
20:46:37 <rbergeron> also doing some thing based on the special fedora packages .. the robotics or whatever
20:46:42 <mchua> * tour of Fedora by a 4/5/6/7 year old
20:46:52 <asamaras> :)
20:46:53 <rbergeron> mchua may have a better thought on what that grouping of packages is called
20:46:54 <rbergeron> :)
20:47:06 <rbergeron> ohhhhhhhhh
20:47:11 <rbergeron> using fedora as a home media server
20:47:23 <asamaras> streaming @ home ?
20:47:30 <rbergeron> something to that effect
20:47:32 <asamaras> nice one
20:47:39 <rbergeron> keeping your music library or whatever there
20:47:51 <mchua> * sdziallas's story of getting involved with the edu sig - maybe a few stories here, incl. making SoaS based on Fedora
20:47:56 <rbergeron> i don't want to call it "my home ftp server plz leech" :)
20:48:16 <rbergeron> ummmm
20:48:32 <asamaras> no it was streaming ; that is not routable
20:48:36 <rbergeron> i mean, general education anything is good, elementary, middle, high school
20:48:39 <mchua> * I think the "ianweller teaches professors at POSSE how to make packages" is a good one both in terms of "cool story" and "zomg this is hard for smart new contributors plz can haz make easier"
20:49:48 <rbergeron> are we doing this by groups or are we thoroughly braindumping for all categories
20:49:59 <asamaras> streaming is leagal as long as it is in closed user groups and the content is legal also
20:50:03 <mchua> * the Fedora Insight deployment is a Fedora user story, imo - being able to package stuff up, work with the community to deploy it, etc. is the *only* thing that's going to make FI possible to deploy and maintain
20:50:11 * rbergeron nods
20:50:24 <rbergeron> using fedora to run a phpbb server
20:50:26 <rbergeron> mail server
20:50:29 <rbergeron> listserv
20:50:33 <mchua> rbergeron: I was braindumping for all categories, but can stick to one category at a time
20:50:34 <rbergeron> apache
20:50:36 <mchua> (if wanted)
20:50:52 <rbergeron> mchua: i don't care, i think when these get sorted out on the wiki it will be obvious which goes where, generally
20:50:57 * mchua nods
20:51:02 <mchua> * fedora for designers (tablet meme!)
20:51:17 <mchua> * fedora for audio geeks (we have an audio/music list, podcasting, etc)
20:51:20 <asamaras> mobiles
20:51:31 <mchua> * how FWN works
20:51:38 <mchua> * ooh, yeah - the Mini SIG, the Moblin spin!
20:51:47 <asamaras> :)
20:51:51 <rbergeron> using fedora to read my emailz with xyz
20:52:04 <rbergeron> developers stuff is pretty wide open
20:52:15 <rbergeron> maybe different ... eclipse packages or whatever?
20:52:17 <asamaras> using PIM
20:52:19 * rbergeron is not a developer so umm
20:52:19 <mchua> * "I found this bug and I reported it and look it got fixed" (qa/dev story)
20:52:25 <rbergeron> right
20:52:41 <mchua> * "I packaged foobar in Fedora and suddenly my foobar program had a lot more users"
20:52:41 <rbergeron> i found a bug and made a patch, also
20:52:50 <asamaras> whoaaa that's productive
20:52:52 <rbergeron> mchua: that's a good one
20:53:09 <rbergeron> that is like a 2-pronged marketing thing there
20:53:23 <rbergeron> a success story and an attractor to get ppl to get their stuff packaged :)
20:53:31 <mchua> yep, I think bug-reporting needs at least 2 stories - one from someone who is a dev who could fix it, one from someone who isn't a developer
20:53:49 <mchua> * "how the 1-page release notes were made" (this can more or less copy-paste Mo's blog post, methinks)
20:54:03 <mchua> * for that matter, "how the website was redesigned"
20:54:16 <mchua> (both the release notes and the website were made in the fedora community, using tools in Fedora)
20:54:57 <mchua> * something docs related?
20:55:06 <asamaras> and translations
20:55:11 <asamaras> :D
20:55:33 <mchua> ooh yes - maybe the story of a translation sprint, or a "wow, this is the first time I've used an operating system in my native language" story
20:55:57 <mchua> the "how transifex got started" story is also a really good one
20:56:41 <mchua> Luke Macken on "how we made moksha" might also be a winner
20:56:59 <asamaras> let's put them down to a wiki and see what else the community can suggest
20:57:13 <mchua> even the PackageKit story from last week might be good
20:57:19 <mchua> "here's how we deal with issues"
20:57:28 <mchua> (I thought that actually went *amazingly* well)
20:58:00 <mchua> (I mean, 3 days from "ARGH!" to "ok, we fixed this, and it taught us a lot about how to do things better in the future")
20:58:15 <asamaras> yes it has all the aspects development, PR and marketing
20:58:31 <asamaras> also "ok, we missed it, but we fixed it"
20:59:46 <asamaras> responce time downt to 3 days : lots of users downloaded F12 and reported, so within 3 days from the release day ....
21:01:04 <asamaras> do you think we should allow more time to brainstorm or should we call for better brain weather?
21:01:45 <mchua> asamaras: I think we're in a good position to wrap up, put this on a wiki page, take a quick look over it
21:02:00 <mchua> asamaras: and then go to the Design sprint and show the folks there our story list, I think it actually might be quite helpful to them
21:02:18 <mchua> one moment and I'll grab the log and stick it on a page somewhere
21:02:35 <rbergeron> mizmo, can you do the little chat about what you're doing and how it ties in... i guess in the design sprint? :)
21:04:11 <asamaras> #topic free talk
21:04:23 * rbergeron wonders where that sprint is a-happenin
21:05:11 * mchua dumped the brainstorm part of our transcript in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_stories and is now cleaning up
21:05:19 <mizmo> rbergeron: #fedora-design
21:05:30 <mizmo> rbergeron: right now we're interviewing the fedora infrateam with our stakeholder interview questions
21:05:39 <mizmo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_Research_Plan#Stakeholders
21:05:44 <mizmo> it's gone on for 50 minutes or so
21:05:46 <asamaras> and looks like you have done alot of work
21:07:53 <asamaras> mchua, rbergeron and all should we call this meeting over?
21:07:55 <mchua> asamaras, rbergeron: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_stories
21:08:06 <mchua> it needs categorization & sorting but I think we have a good start
21:08:37 <mchua> asamaras: so I think the next thing would be (1) to briefly categorize them, (2) put a description at the top for what we're aiming for with the user stories project
21:08:53 <rbergeron> sounds good
21:08:57 <mchua> asamaras: then (3) link your stories in as examples, and (4) start asking people on IRC, mailing lists, etc, to write the rest ;)
21:09:10 <mchua> asamaras: this was an /awesome/ start though, thanks for driving the sprint!
21:09:19 <mchua> I think we have a clearer idea of where we're headed now
21:09:23 * mchua sits back
21:09:36 <mchua> asamaras: (that's all I had, if you think we're done then we're done ;)
21:09:48 <mchua> asamaras: (the command to end the meeting is #endmeeting)
21:10:15 <asamaras> I think there is aliot of work to be done, but we can hanle it
21:10:25 <asamaras> thank you all
21:10:29 <asamaras> #endmeeting