20:02:27 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:02:27 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Oct 13 20:02:27 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:02:27 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:03:27 <mchua> #topic roll call
20:03:35 <gmzysk> gmzysk
20:03:59 <mchua> gmzysk: Gregory! Glad you're here - I just got your email.
20:04:13 <gmzysk> thanks
20:04:25 * mchua looks around for others - got a few emails from folks who can't make it today
20:05:01 <mchua> ianweller, ke4qqq, Sparks - this might be something you want to listen in on for zikula deployment.
20:05:19 * mchua looks at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_meetings#Agenda
20:06:03 <mchua> We need to go through those and update everyone at some point, but I think that right now, if gmzysk and I are the only ones around, it's probably worth spending this time getting you started, Gregory - and then I'll do the updates to the rest of the team later on.
20:06:22 <mchua> gmzysk: that sound ok? I think in the process of getting you started, we'll go through much of what's going on right now anyhow.
20:06:25 <gmzysk> Alright
20:06:46 <mchua> (we've lost a few people to another meeting, one to a stomach bug, a couple to thesis deadlines...)
20:06:58 <mchua> Sweet, let's get started then.
20:07:09 <mchua> #topic Getting started in Fedora Marketing
20:07:30 <mchua> gmzysk: Would you like to introduce yourself a bit, for folks who'll read these logs?
20:08:09 <gmzysk> Well, I have just joined with the ambassadors in the NL/EMEA
20:08:48 <gmzysk> A bit more can be found at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Gmzysk
20:08:52 * mchua nods
20:08:58 <mchua> you mentioned you were interested in interested in strategy, marketing and management?
20:09:15 <gmzysk> Yes, I am a management consultant
20:09:33 <gmzysk> So, I know my way around industry and organizations
20:09:34 <mchua> Awesome.
20:09:51 <gmzysk> Although Fedora has thrown me for a loop
20:09:54 <mchua> how's that?
20:10:11 <gmzysk> Well it is a very technically oriented distro
20:10:27 <gmzysk> Very steep learning curve for a guy like me
20:11:11 * mchua nods - if you need help on *any* of the tech we use, btw, just holler for help.
20:11:14 <gmzysk> Nonetheless, it is a different approach since it is also a different organizational design
20:11:44 <pjones> I thought "nobody is in charge" was pretty common.
20:11:59 <gmzysk> Most industries are flat organization or top-down or bottom-up
20:12:12 <mchua> hey, hiemanshu - marketing meeting, if you'd like to listen in; we're going to be going over websites-type stuff shortly.
20:12:16 <mchua> (with FI)
20:12:30 <hiemanshu> mchua, sure :)
20:12:34 <gmzysk> nobody is in charge is not very common
20:12:39 <mchua> gmzysk: It's pretty fascinating - I've heard it described as a meritocracy, but I think a better description is a do-ocracy.
20:13:03 <gmzysk> Ok, what is a do-ocracy?
20:13:17 <mchua> The people who do things have the power to do things.
20:13:35 <gmzysk> So, how is strategy formed?
20:14:02 <mchua> ...good question.
20:14:17 <mchua> I saw you've posted to the fedora-advisory-board thread on "What is Fedora?" so you're seeing a bit of that process right now.
20:15:04 <gmzysk> Yes, I am but as I wrote before different people view Fedora from their functions/mindsets
20:15:09 <mchua> Yep.
20:15:21 <gmzysk> I can see that in the F-A-B too
20:15:26 <mchua> And to as large an extent as possible, part of the strategy (as I've seen it) is to optimize for that being OK.
20:15:30 <mchua> Not just OK, but ideal.
20:16:16 <mchua> stickster: oh hey! you might want to chime in here.
20:16:27 <gmzysk> It can be, but I see someone would need to be "responsible" or discussions roll on until eternity
20:16:30 <mchua> gmzysk: stickster is Paul Frields, the Fedora Project Leader.
20:16:32 <stickster> I will, for the minute or two I have free before we start up again in the meeting in which I'm sitting
20:16:33 <inode0> out of the chaos comes very cool stuff
20:16:35 <mchua> He's that "responsible" guy.
20:16:57 <gmzysk> Ok.
20:17:01 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FPL
20:17:03 <stickster> gmzysk: You may be well served by reading the first few chapters of Karl Fogel's "Producing Open Source Software."
20:17:20 <stickster> It provides an overview to the general organizational and procedural underpinnings of free and open source software communities.
20:17:26 <mchua> #link http://producingoss.com/
20:17:44 <stickster> The key word is "meritocracy."
20:18:09 <gmzysk> ok. I was also recommended another book "the starfish and something....."
20:18:15 <mchua> I think it's important to point out that the Fedora Project is more than just "we produce Fedora the distribution," but that's still the bulk of what we do.
20:18:15 <mchua> (imo)
20:18:25 <mchua> There's stuff like marketing, QA, etc. that surround and support that.
20:18:34 <mchua> gmzysk: The Starfish and the Spider - yep, that's another excellent book.
20:18:34 <stickster> gmzysk: Yes, that's a great introduction to the concept of leaderless organizations.
20:18:54 <stickster> I would opine that Fedora is not a starfish but we try to create a well-functioning *hybrid*.
20:18:54 <gmzysk> Will recieve it tomorrow
20:18:56 <inode0> ... and the spider
20:19:22 <gmzysk> That is it!
20:19:29 <inode0> some would opine Red Hat is a hybrid too
20:19:35 <mchua> gmzysk: What is it that you'd like to do or explore or understand within Fedora - for starters, at least? I think that'll help us figure out how to get you started.
20:19:44 <mchua> Because we could go on about this stuff for *hours.*
20:20:02 <hiemanshu> mchua, correcting you *days*
20:20:04 <stickster> Sounds like the good basis for a list discussion :-)
20:20:07 <mchua> months! years!
20:20:12 <stickster> s/the/a/
20:20:29 <gmzysk> Well it is difficult. Since I am used to looking at an organization from the top level
20:20:49 <stickster> By its nature, FOSS communities are not as hierarchical.
20:21:06 <gmzysk> I am finding that out;)
20:21:07 * mchua would love to be able to learn how gmzysk would explain Fedora from the viewpoint that he's used to
20:21:41 <mchua> gmzysk: I think what we might want to do is get you started as a contributor, and then take some time out every so often - I'm usually on IRC all the time, many of the other people here are as well -
20:21:56 <hiemanshu> You are your own boss, you have no one to report you, its the FOSS spirit that keeps you going
20:21:59 <gmzysk> Well, Fedora I look at as an distro that focuses on security and virtualization
20:21:59 <mchua> to pull back and reflect, and figure out how this fits into the wealth of experience you have about organizations.
20:22:43 <mchua> How did you come to know about Fedora? What led you to that impression?
20:22:43 <pjones> hiemanshu: well, that and my paycheck.  oh, and my boss.
20:22:50 * mchua is curious - Fedora is a lot of things to lots of people.
20:22:54 <mchua> (as you pointed out)
20:22:58 * stickster drops back to focus on in-person meeting :-)
20:23:14 <gmzysk> distro hopping, using mac and windows
20:23:23 * mchua came from the open-source-in-education side of things, so security and virtualization weren't the first things that I saw when I came looking.
20:23:56 <hiemanshu> The first i saw while using Fedora (6 IIRC) was the theme
20:23:56 <mchua> (but they are here.)
20:24:12 <hiemanshu> Well most people use a specific Distro just because it looks nice
20:24:24 <gmzysk> But, I look at it from a business perspective and since it is the testing ground for an enterprise linux
20:24:42 <gmzysk> It should logically follow suit
20:25:19 <pjones> gmzysk: that's actually sortof a metaphorical statement, though
20:25:20 <gmzysk> I don't go back that far hiemanshu
20:25:47 <gmzysk> how is that pjones?
20:25:55 <mchua> The nice thing about Fedora is that it *can* (and is) a "security and virt are great here" upstream source that RHEL can (and does) pull from.
20:26:00 <mchua> (red hat enterprise linux)
20:26:26 <pjones> well, it's not literally a test-bed for enterprise linux.  more like RHEL is created /from/ fedora.  We don't just take a snapshot.
20:26:39 <mchua> pjones: yeah, you can probably explain this better than I can
20:27:08 <gmzysk> Iike, per say, cent os?
20:27:23 <pjones> well, centos is just a rebuild of RHEL sources.
20:27:36 <pjones> so yes, it really is just a snapshot - sortof.
20:27:36 <Southern_Gentlem> centos takes rhel srpms and rebuild them
20:27:41 <mchua> gmzysk: ooh, stickster just made a video that explains it pretty well actually.
20:27:44 <mchua> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xu81frqUtlc
20:28:13 <pjones> gmzysk: one aspect that's hard to see from the outside is that a lot of the people who are paid to work on fedora are really working on rhel features
20:28:44 <mchua> with fedora as "the future of RHEL"
20:28:49 <gmzysk> Pjones. there are a lot of things hard to see from the outside
20:28:55 <pjones> which is probably why it looks like a "security and virt" distro to some people ;)
20:29:22 <gmzysk> I guess so.
20:30:10 <mchua> gmzysk: Yeah, and one of the things that Marketing needs to get better at doing is making those things more visible - both to the community members within Fedora, and to people looking in from the outside.
20:30:12 <gmzysk> But from a marketing standpoint: I would see this, as mentioned before, as a very techie oriented distro also
20:30:45 * mchua definitely wants to capture gmzysk's impressions as a newcomer before they fade away and he gets more used to things
20:31:18 <mchua> how about this: we're dumping a lot of info on gmzysk right now, but there's nothing but experience to give you the real picture.
20:31:19 <gmzysk> The communication mediums are so very technically oriented as is the way the wiki is setup
20:31:26 <mchua> +1 agreed with that
20:31:34 <pjones> absolutely.
20:32:05 <gmzysk> So, I am not sure if you would like to expand your segment beyond these techies?
20:32:11 <mchua> gmzysk: want to walk through the joining process real quick - https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project - and then you'll have something concrete to go from in terms of what the contributor experience is like?
20:32:16 <mchua> gmzysk: the answer is "yes, absolutely."
20:32:41 <mchua> I get the impression that it's fairly recent (the last few releases) that we've moved into a place where we're able to really start thinking and reaching out in that direction.
20:33:02 <gmzysk> How is that?
20:33:26 <gmzysk> What is so different in the last two releases? User friendliness?
20:33:36 <mchua> disclaimer: This is my perspective, and I'm relatively new, so pjones and others with more experience might want to chime in.
20:33:54 <mchua> I think it's the capacity of the Fedora community to do the things we want to do and get the things we need from a distro.
20:34:23 <mchua> Making tools work for the toolmakers is a hard thing, and takes a long time.
20:34:33 <gmzysk> But how do you know what you need without a map?
20:34:46 <gmzysk> strategy being that map
20:34:52 <mchua> And I think we may be at the point where the toolmakers have their tools, and they're working well, and now we can use those tools to build things other than the stuff we need.
20:35:08 <mchua> gmzysk: well, I think that's actually why you'd say Fedora is a "techie distro."
20:35:09 <pjones> gmzysk: think of it as cloudsourced strategy :)
20:35:21 <mchua> gmzysk: have you heard the phrase "scratching your own itch" before?
20:35:24 <pjones> everybody has their own direction.  some people are focused on some things, some on others.
20:35:39 <pjones> so there's sortof a democratic brownian motion going on/
20:35:40 <gmzysk> Yes from my techie mentors
20:35:41 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, you build your own Mindmaps
20:36:18 <mchua> As long as I can make Fedora work for me, I don't care quite so much about a broader strategy (or it existing in various amounts of vagueness).
20:36:22 <hiemanshu> And you have to just have your mindmap fit in with others
20:36:30 <mchua> (well... that gets less true over time as I get more involved, but that's where I started.)
20:36:57 <hiemanshu> mchua, "Fedora works for me" is not a good thing
20:37:04 <gmzysk> Ok. I am sure it will take some time to get used to this philosophy
20:37:19 <mchua> yeah, the mindmap-fitting-in-with-others is the hard part, and I think where we start going through the levels of what gmzysk would call "strategy"
20:37:39 <mchua> hiemanshu: +1 - I think it's where open source projects *start,* but not where they should remain if they want to grow and mature.
20:37:51 <mchua> we're in an interesting phase right now with respect to that.
20:38:31 <gmzysk> strategy is traditionally set by management and or the board of directors on behalf of their shareholders
20:38:36 <hiemanshu> if people stayed with "Fedora works for me", you would not even have say 100 people helping fedora grow
20:38:48 <mchua> and I think that being able to have the perspective of someone like gmzysk will actually be very interesting and valuable in giving us a different way of thinking about this kind of stuff, just like mizmo_ chiming in on F-A-B has been a breath of fresh air for me to hear a Design perspective.
20:38:53 <mchua> hiemanshu: again, total +1
20:38:56 <gmzysk> I agree with hiemanshu
20:39:17 <gmzysk> That statement does not highlight a "we" community
20:40:01 <mchua> I agree as well. I don't think it's a good place to stay, I'm just pointing out that it is one of many ways that individuals start.
20:40:14 <pjones> gmzysk: you're not wrong wrt how strategy is generally set
20:40:18 <mchua> And one reason they might not necessarily come in asking about high-level strategy from the beginning.
20:40:54 <pjones> gmzysk: but the thing is, the strategy set by e.g. RH management effects individual contributors, such as myself, and so I work on specific features (today I'm working on dracut support for multipath root.  wooooooo, boring.)
20:41:11 * mchua would like to get through https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project at some point
20:41:12 <pjones> and I might also work on features that are my own, but part of my direction is certainly management.
20:41:18 <pjones> er
20:41:20 <pjones> from management
20:41:27 <pjones> which makes it *part* of fedora's direction
20:41:42 <mchua> so gmzysk can experience more of what it's like to contribute to fedora instead of hearing us talk about it all day ;)
20:42:09 <pjones> but if I also work on something else in fedora (say, ripping CDs), that's also part of fedora's direction.  and management is generally willing to let me spend work time on that as well.
20:42:10 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, as i said you just have people make mindmaps, you think about adding something to fedora, make a mindmap for it, and ask other people in the the same group as yours if they like the idea, and then you make a strategy to tackle that
20:42:13 <gmzysk> I can see where you are coming from pjones
20:42:27 <pjones> it just so happens that my management also cares what's in fedora - that's not true of all contributors.
20:42:58 <gmzysk> Or all industries, pjones
20:43:03 <pjones> sure.
20:43:06 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, open source Strategy is like a puzzle, it really makes no meaning until you see the big picture
20:43:13 <mchua> Yeah, the actual Fedora engineering team employed by Red Hat is... pjones, how many are you now?
20:43:21 <mchua> Compared to the total number of Fedora contributors, it's really, really tiny
20:43:23 <pjones> mchua: I'm not on the fedora team.
20:43:48 <mchua> huh, I need to look at that list again sometime then
20:43:59 <mchua> anyway, I'd like to get gmzysk started
20:44:00 <pjones> mchua: the installer group is part of BaseOS, which is RHEL-oriented.
20:44:09 <pjones> We just happen to write the Fedora installer ;)
20:44:21 <mchua> (and we can definitely keep on talking about this as we go, but I want to make sure gmzysk has an account in all the places that he needs one, know how to use stuff, get in touch with people, etc)
20:44:38 * mchua pulls open https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project
20:44:41 <mchua> #link
20:44:42 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Joining_the_Fedora_marketing_project
20:44:45 <mchua> er
20:44:47 <mchua> there we go
20:44:52 <gmzysk> Got it mchua
20:45:09 <mchua> gmzysk: the first step is introducing yourself to the marketing mailing list - so if you can forward the email you sent me to the list, that would be perfect.
20:45:18 * mchua looks for list
20:45:34 <mchua> #link https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
20:45:43 <gmzysk> I am on the list, just need to forward the email
20:45:51 <mchua> gmzysk: ok, great!
20:46:13 <mchua> gmzysk: after that, since you're already an Ambassador, I'm assuming you probably already have an account on FAS (Fedora Account System)
20:46:16 <mchua> #link https://admin.fedoraproject.org/accounts
20:46:30 <gmzysk> Yes, I am in the FAS
20:46:51 <mchua> OK - once you send the email to the list, log into FAS and request to join the group called marketing
20:46:55 <mchua> and I'll approve you right now
20:47:14 <gmzysk> I am way ahead of you. You can do it now
20:47:33 <mchua> gmzysk: you rock.
20:47:48 <gmzysk> We'll see;)
20:48:04 <mchua> .fas gmzysk
20:48:05 <zodbot> mchua: gmzysk 'Gregory Zysk' <gz.int.project@gmail.com>
20:48:08 <hiemanshu> mchua, actually you are pretty slow :P
20:48:29 <hiemanshu> .fasinfo gmzysk
20:48:30 <zodbot> hiemanshu: User: gmzysk, Name: Gregory Zysk, email: gz.int.project@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-09-21, IRC Nick: gmzysk, Timezone: Europe/Amsterdam, Locale: en, Extension: 5138002, GPG key ID: B8BF04D6, Status: active
20:48:33 <zodbot> hiemanshu: Approved Groups: cla_done marketing cla_fedora
20:48:36 <zodbot> hiemanshu: Unapproved Groups: ambassadors famsco
20:48:40 <mchua> hiemanshu: did you just beat me to it?
20:48:47 <hiemanshu> mchua, yup :)
20:48:56 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, you are done :)
20:48:56 <mchua> hiemanshu: you rock too. ;)
20:48:58 <gmzysk> Wow!!
20:49:02 * mchua loves it when this happens
20:49:12 <mchua> gmzysk: ah yes - zodbot is an IRC bot that does useful things for us
20:49:13 <mchua> such as
20:49:13 <gmzysk> Thanks hiemanshu and mchua
20:49:15 <mchua> .nextmarketingmeeting
20:49:15 <zodbot> mchua: 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 45 seconds
20:49:20 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, no problem :)
20:49:48 <mchua> (for fun, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Zodbot - but very much non-crucial)
20:50:02 <hiemanshu> mchua, actually i could help with the marketing team as well
20:50:09 <mchua> gmzysk: In terms of finding information, you're probably already learning this, but the hierarchy I usually use is...
20:50:13 <mchua> hiemanshu: wait, but you are already...
20:50:18 * hiemanshu has 3 fedora Tees
20:50:21 <hiemanshu> mchua, nah
20:50:28 <hiemanshu> .fasinfo hiemanshu
20:50:29 <zodbot> hiemanshu: User: hiemanshu, Name: Hiemanshu Sharma, email: hiemanshu@gmail.com, Creation: 2009-06-19, IRC Nick: hiemanshu, Timezone: Asia/Kolkata, Locale: en, Extension: 5132798, GPG key ID: 7A77244D, Status: active
20:50:32 <zodbot> hiemanshu: Approved Groups: cla_done web fedorabugs sysadmin-web sysadmin cla_fedora sysadmin-test blogadmin
20:50:34 <zodbot> hiemanshu: Unapproved Groups: None
20:50:37 <mchua> gmzysk: (0) look on the wiki, (1) ask in IRC, (2) ask on a mailing list
20:51:18 * hiemanshu joins f-m-l
20:51:18 <mchua> gmzysk: since you already have edit permissions on the wiki (you made a wiki user page and all that) you're all set.
20:51:19 <gmzysk> I am starting to get this but it takes hours to run through logs and the wiki
20:51:26 * mchua nods
20:51:43 <gmzysk> It is so NOT user friendly
20:51:43 <mchua> gmzysk: if there's anything we can do to help make that easier, let us know... it takes a little while to learn
20:51:46 <mchua> gmzysk: what would make it better?
20:52:06 <mchua> (it's also impossible to keep up with everything happening in Fedora, so don't feel compelled to read every single message/log/page)
20:52:20 <gmzysk> mchua: I would say graphics
20:52:20 <mchua> it's why https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN is so valuable
20:52:22 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN
20:52:24 <mchua> Fedora Weekly News
20:52:33 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN/LatestIssue
20:52:53 <mchua> gmzysk: Graphics in the wiki, in IRC logs?
20:53:03 <gmzysk> In the wiki
20:53:06 <mchua> gmzysk: or a better IRC interface (what are you using for IRC right now?)
20:53:09 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, when you move to Linux you should also learn to read well :P
20:53:10 <mchua> gmzysk: oh, okay.
20:53:19 <gmzysk> X-chat gmoe
20:53:23 <gmzysk> gnome
20:53:43 <mchua> ianweller: ^^^ o wiki czar, improvement has been requested in thy domain
20:53:55 <mchua> gmzysk: how is that working out for you?
20:53:55 <hiemanshu> mchua, /ctcp gmzysk version :(
20:53:56 <mchua> (xchat gnome
20:53:57 <hiemanshu> :)**
20:53:57 <gmzysk> I am always reading hiemanshu
20:54:17 <mchua> hiemanshu: ...ooh, thanks
20:54:17 <gmzysk> Seems to be ok mchua
20:54:21 * mchua learns something new
20:54:36 <mchua> gmzysk: so it's really the wiki being hard to sort through that's the biggest sore spot at the moment?
20:55:15 <gmzysk> That and the organizational design, yes
20:55:29 <mchua> Okay.
20:55:49 <gmzysk> I would like to see the front page of the fedora project lead into different areas....
20:55:49 <mchua> That's something I'd definitely like to hear more about so we can file bugs and fix that.
20:56:02 <gmzysk> Such as:
20:56:05 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, we are working on them
20:56:35 <mchua> gmzysk: http://duffy.fedorapeople.org/temp/woot/page1.png is what it's going to look more like relatively shortly
20:56:40 <gmzysk> a zone for the technically inclined, one for the average user, one for the newbie
20:56:51 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009
20:56:52 <mchua> (Actually, I think you'd find that whole discussion extremely interesting)
20:56:59 <hiemanshu> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Website_redesign_2009
20:57:06 <mchua> (and potentially valuable to chime into)
20:57:16 <gmzysk> hiemanshu: I will look at the link
20:58:01 * mchua looks at time
20:58:11 <hiemanshu> 02:25 here
20:58:12 <mchua> gmzysk: I'd like to see if we can find you a first project to get started on.
20:58:20 <gmzysk> Ok.
20:58:31 <mchua> gmzysk: because nothing will give you a better idea of how Fedora contribution/governance works than to participate in it
20:58:35 <mchua> (and then you can tell us all about how things are broken ;)
20:58:57 <mchua> gmzysk: do you have anything in mind, or should we start tossing out ideas and see what sounds interesting to you?
20:59:33 <gmzysk> How does the actual marketing team work with other groups?
21:00:19 <mchua> gmzysk: Pretty informally; we haven't needed that much in the way of formal structure - people often belong to multiple groups and hop between them as things are needed
21:00:24 * mchua realizes that's pretty vague
21:00:33 <gmzysk> Such as project manager, ambassadors, events, promos?
21:00:33 <mchua> for instance, for Fedora Insight's launch
21:00:39 <mchua> (which I'll explain in a moment)
21:00:55 <mchua> it's a Marketing project, since it's the platform (website) we'll be publishing marketing materials on in the future
21:01:08 <mchua> but we needed CSS for it, so we went to Design and said "hey, could you make a skin?"
21:01:11 <mchua> and they made a skin
21:01:24 <mchua> (Design and Websites together, i'd say - there was a fair bit of CSS involved too)
21:01:46 <hiemanshu> and mchua still owes me a cookie for that one :)
21:02:11 <mchua> and Fedora Infrastructure is the crew that hosts/deploys things, so we're going there and they were the ones that gave us, for instance, test server space, they're going to do load testing, they're going to deploy things and make the final constructed website all go live
21:02:24 <mchua> and make sure the machines that run it stay up + have sufficient bandwidth + generally Just Work
21:02:55 <mchua> (so the Marketing team doesn't need to worry about configuring ports, say)
21:02:55 <mchua> hiemanshu: I do indeed.
21:03:15 <hiemanshu> gmzysk, as i said, you just have to get mindmaps to fit in right
21:03:18 <mchua> We work with poelcat as the project manager in that he worked with us at the start of this release cycle to come up with a deliverables schedule
21:03:25 <mchua> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/f-12-marketing-tasks.html
21:03:28 <mchua> and reminds us of it every week
21:03:38 <mchua> but it's not like a "I Am Your Boss And You Must Do This Or Else" reminder
21:03:44 <gmzysk> I sent him an email also
21:03:55 <mchua> it's a "hey, you said that you wanted to do this and be reminded of this stuff at this time, so here you go"
21:04:10 <mchua> gmzysk: of potential interest - poelcat is going to start teaching his PM-fu pretty soon
21:04:13 * mchua is a student ;)
21:04:22 <mchua> so listening in on that might help you get a picture of how some things work
21:04:28 <mchua> gmzysk: but back to finding you a project...
21:04:49 <mchua> I'll just start tossing out ideas and you can tell me when something sounds interesting.
21:04:55 <mchua> #topic potential projects
21:05:05 <mchua> (everyone feel free to chime in if you think of any)
21:05:07 * hiemanshu listens
21:05:08 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_research
21:05:27 <mchua> that's one; rbergeron has been the person driving that
21:05:32 <mchua> (rbergeron = marketing research background)
21:05:41 <gmzysk> Marketing research is key
21:05:52 <mchua> a marketing research plan/strategy/execution hasn't really existed in the past, so this project is more about building that up from ground zero and then deploying it
21:06:02 <gmzysk> But after seeing the wiki, I find no methodology
21:06:18 <mchua> gmzysk: so if you'd like to tag-team with rbergeron on that, I think that might be good since the two of you have marketing experience that many of us don't.
21:06:35 * poelcat sees channel highlight... gmzysk's email is the next unread message in the queue :)
21:06:53 <mchua> gmzysk: one thing that I think is important to note - and one thing I'm working to change - is that Marketing team members, right now, are mostly Not Actually Marketers By Trade
21:07:15 <mchua> rbergeron is; SeanDaly is; a few others may have no formal schooling but have done it as part of their jobs.
21:07:19 <gmzysk> I am sorry. I am still getting used to x-chat here
21:07:47 <mchua> But for instance, I studied engineering, and I've only seen Marketing work from that perspective
21:08:14 <mchua> so a lot of what I'm trying to do with my time here is to make tools easier to use so that people like you can pick up and build and drive an actual Marketing strategy
21:08:33 <gmzysk> How about what I wrote the email about? Organizational Development?
21:08:59 <mchua> I'm not familiar with what that means, could you explain a bit?
21:09:25 <mchua> (to recap project list: so, project #1 would be working with rbergeron on marketing research)
21:09:54 <gmzysk> It is measuring how the internal part of an organization reflects the external part
21:10:10 <gmzysk> This is a good start before we can make results in marketing
21:10:30 <mchua> (and project #2 might be starting the concept of mini-consulting for small projects within Fedora - for instance, Fedora Electronics Lab approached us for "marketing help" but nobody has had the bandwidth to be their consultant, so to speak, yet)
21:10:57 <mchua> gmzysk: Hm... how closely would that fit in with the marketing research work that's going on?
21:10:59 <gmzysk> You need to find out how the entire organization thinks to see what target groups you can focus on in the external environment
21:11:16 <mchua> (or could that overlap using the same set of survey tools?)
21:11:17 * mchua nods
21:11:24 <gmzysk> It is core to everthing human in an organization
21:11:26 <mchua> that sounds like it would be extremely valuable right now especially.
21:11:43 <gmzysk> But very scientific
21:11:56 <gmzysk> Works from systems theory
21:12:17 <gmzysk> Are you familiar with that from engineering?
21:12:47 <mchua> Yep.
21:12:48 <gmzysk> open systems vs closed systems?
21:13:05 <mchua> Yep.
21:13:23 <gmzysk> The same theoretical base can be applied to humans and their processes in an organization
21:13:27 * mchua TA'd a systems theory class for a few years, actually - so I love this stuff, and am curious to see how it works from an organization level
21:13:29 <mchua> Nice!
21:13:49 <gmzysk> Quite different but some of the same
21:14:06 <gmzysk> I used it for the basis for my masters
21:14:29 <mchua> gmzysk: Well, if that's what you're interested in doing, that's what you should do - I think it'd be fantastic.
21:15:12 <gmzysk> But where to start? This is "usually" a management function
21:15:17 <mchua> gmzysk: And the way to start doing that is... to start doing it. Write up a rough proposal to the list explaining what you're trying to do, and what you'll be up to.
21:15:30 <mchua> gmzysk: usually. ;)
21:15:40 <gmzysk> It is the predecessor to Organizational change
21:16:14 <gmzysk> I use it to diagnose conflict in organizations so that they can be more effective
21:17:03 <gmzysk> mchua: It will be very hard for anyone to understand. It is quite specialized
21:17:21 <gmzysk> But it would do wonders for this organization
21:17:42 <mchua> gmzysk: I don't doubt that.
21:17:47 <mchua> gmzysk: One of the things we try to do within Fedora is to teach each other what we know
21:17:52 <mchua> for instance, poelcat teaching project management
21:17:57 <mchua> and mizmo teaching design
21:18:21 <mchua> gmzysk: if, as you do this, you can explain what you're doing and why, as you go along, I think that's going to help a lot with buy-in of the end result.
21:18:26 <gmzysk> I don't mind teaching, but I teach in person
21:19:05 <gmzysk> It would be way to inefficient thorough these communicational mediums
21:19:14 * poelcat notes the teaching thing was mchua's idea :)
21:19:15 <mchua> Podcast? Webcam?
21:19:24 <mchua> poelcat: hey, I wanted to learn, so... ;)
21:19:49 <poelcat> gmzysk: yes that is one of the first expectation that has be left at the door... efficiency :)
21:20:20 <mchua> you trade efficiency in some ways (large organizational movements) for efficiency in other areas (individual contributors not needing to ask for permission/direction before Doing Cool Things)
21:20:49 <gmzysk> Ok. then Organizational development or business development is useless if you are not looking for efficiency
21:21:25 <mchua> Well... what kind of efficiency? I think that's the question.
21:21:27 <poelcat> gmzysk: not exactly... it can be molded for our enviornment, but not forced in textbook style
21:21:41 <gmzysk> mchua: why do we need to ask permission if there are no leaders?
21:21:59 <mchua> In many ways, Fedora is by *far* the most efficient place I've ever worked, and I've worked at startups, design firms, and other places that are typically considered to be extremely agile.
21:22:20 <mchua> gmzysk: the point is that for 99.99% of the things you'd want to do, you don't.
21:22:32 <mchua> The 0.001% would be stuff like "I'd like to use the Fedora trademark on my project."
21:22:41 <mchua> or "I would like funding to run this event."
21:22:54 <mchua> (but if you have your own funding, then you can just go off and Run An Event.)
21:22:54 <gmzysk> Ok. So there is a managment somewhere there!
21:23:16 <gmzysk> that .01 is where it is!
21:23:17 <mchua> Extremely lightweight management.
21:23:20 <mchua> Sure!
21:23:57 <mchua> for instance, the f-a-b list where you saw the discussion - that's the fedora advisory board, which is the group that determines the usage of the Fedora trademark (among other things)
21:24:09 <mchua> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board
21:24:30 <mchua> but they can't just make a decision arbitrarily and expect everyone else to follow
21:24:46 <gmzysk> Yes, they seems to be making managment decisions as well as the steering comittee
21:24:57 <gmzysk> I read their threads
21:25:00 <mchua> because they don't have that kind of boss-like authority; contributors can just as easily go "actually, I do not agree with that," and then just not follow what they say.
21:25:08 <mchua> So most of the interesting bits are really happening down below.
21:25:37 <gmzysk> I can see that also
21:25:38 <mchua> And the way people get on the board is to have that respect from the community - to be a contributor, to be recognized as someone who already leads by example, etc
21:25:54 <mchua> over half the project board is elected by the community
21:25:55 <poelcat> gmzysk: a lot of it is leadership through doing and earned respect vs. bestowed power
21:26:06 <mchua> and the folks who are chosen by red hat are people that the community already knows and respects
21:26:43 <gmzysk> poelcat: This is a meritocratic organization
21:27:06 <poelcat> gmzysk: the discussions on f-a-b are somewhat unique right now... if you look back in the archives that list is usually pretty quiet
21:27:10 <mchua> When you read Starfish + The Spider, you'll see that idea come up with the concept of a "nant'an"
21:27:24 <mchua> (a "leader" in the Apache tribe of native americans)
21:28:05 <gmzysk> mchua:I look forward to it
21:28:52 <mchua> gmzysk: I think the way to get started is to write up a rough plan of what you'd like to do with organizational development in fedora
21:29:19 <mchua> with the understanding that we're kind of a weird organization, and that a lot of the top-down stuff that might work in other places doesn't exist here per se
21:29:41 <mchua> and send that to the mailing list, because a concrete proposal will help us understand more of what you're trying to do
21:30:01 <gmzysk> My email explained it generally, after that it on to methodology, research design, ........and then a book
21:30:10 <mchua> And then expect a lot of questions and suggestions from various community members as we try to understand what it is you're doing ;)
21:30:14 <poelcat> gmzysk: another suggestion might be to just observe things for 90 days and make some notes to yourself
21:30:21 <poelcat> about what you think is or is not working
21:30:41 <poelcat> i know when I first got involved some of my initial conclusions and judgements were wrong
21:30:50 <mchua> 90 days, or 30 days, or a week or two, whenever you feel like you've got something to share
21:30:52 <poelcat> but i didn't see that until a few releases had gone by
21:30:53 <mchua> (like the f-a-b post)
21:30:57 <gmzysk> How rough is rough? I am a perfectionist
21:31:11 <poelcat> :)
21:31:20 <mchua> gmzysk: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Marketing_research&action=history might help
21:31:45 <mchua> gmzysk: that's rbergeron's draft process of the markeitng research page (which is stlil pretty draft-ish)
21:31:49 <mchua> https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Marketing_research&oldid=123450 is how it started
21:31:53 <mchua> and that was *more* than fine
21:32:02 <mchua> the point is to put someting out for shaping and discussion, not to be ifnal/perfect
21:32:05 <mchua> er, final
21:32:08 <gmzysk> mchua: I know but these logs take forever to extract info from
21:32:20 <mchua> There's another phrase you'll hear a lot, which is "release early release often"
21:33:21 <mchua> gmzysk: Ok. Well, if there's a specific thing you have a question on, or a specific area you'd like data made more accessible on, holler to the marketing list and we'll see what we can do.
21:33:26 <gmzysk> mchua: Yes that is a goal from a techical viewpoint
21:33:36 <poelcat> gmzysk: you will get faster :)
21:33:38 <gmzysk> jesus my english is getting bad
21:34:00 <mchua> gmzysk: And it's a goal from an organizational/cultural viewpoint too; we do everything out on the open, collaboratively.
21:34:17 <mchua> It works for code, for content, for governance...
21:34:20 <mchua> turtles all the way down.
21:34:39 <mchua> So a lot of what you'll see on the marketing list is us "releasing" our marketing plans early and often
21:34:53 <mchua> talking about them in the open, getting feedback (and often criticism and "fix this" shouts)
21:35:11 <mchua> instead of Shiny Stuff Emerging From A Black Box
21:35:21 * mchua has to run to another meeting
21:35:56 <gmzysk> continuous development
21:35:57 <mchua> gmzysk: do you think you can get started with that draft proposal - I'd say 15-30 minutes worth of braindumping should do it - and then we'll go from there?
21:36:01 <mchua> Yep.
21:36:10 <gmzysk> Sure
21:36:11 <mchua> I'll respond to it on the mailing list when it hits, and try to get some others to chime in.
21:36:15 <mchua> Okay.
21:36:27 <gmzysk> Okay
21:36:30 <mchua> gmzysk: I think poelcat will probably be super-helpful for explaining the difference between "traditional" orgs and Fedora culture as you go along
21:36:39 <mchua> since he came from that world as well
21:36:59 <gmzysk> Great. Need as much as that as possible
21:37:07 <gmzysk> Now, at least
21:37:18 <mchua> poelcat, if you can think of anyone else that'd be a good translator, can you introduce 'em to gmzysk?
21:37:59 * mchua has to run now
21:37:59 <poelcat> mchua: okay
21:38:08 <mchua> gmzysk, it's great to meet you - I'm glad you're joining us!
21:38:19 <mchua> gmzysk: please ask on the mailing list if you have any questions at all
21:38:23 <mchua> and I look forward to seeing you around.
21:38:25 <gmzysk> Nice to meet all of you too. Thanks
21:38:27 * mchua closes logs
21:38:37 * mchua notes that the marketing update will happen later tonight
21:38:40 <mchua> #endmeeting