20:02:08 <mchua> #startmeeting
20:02:08 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Aug 25 20:02:08 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:02:08 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:02:44 <mchua> Welcome to the Alpha Release Day Marketing Meeting, folks. :) who's here?
20:02:47 <mchua> #topic Roll Call
20:03:23 <EvilBob> I can't stay, my info is in the other channel
20:03:33 <mchua> Thanks, EvilBob.
20:04:12 <mchua> We might have a small meeting today; I know moixs and mizmo are out and it looks like JonRob is still on vacation.
20:06:23 <mchua> Ok, here we go. Probably a quick meeting too then. :)
20:06:27 <mchua> Our agenda: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_meetings#Agenda
20:06:29 <mether> I am here if that helps
20:06:41 <mchua> mether: it does. welcome!
20:07:04 <mchua> hey, rbergeron! agenda is at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_meetings#Agenda
20:07:41 <rbergeron> thanks :)
20:07:47 <EvilBob> mether: you being around always helps
20:08:00 <mchua> sweet. ok, first thing - Alpha got released today, the alpha announcement looks great (thanks, moixs and everyone who edited!), we're now in the next phase (going for Beta).
20:08:30 <mchua> We are barely on schedule for Beta, current status at https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/report/3 (I need to update some tickets, though).
20:08:45 <themayor> hey there every body
20:09:21 <mchua> The big outstanding work item is Talking Points, which don't have an owner - we need someone to act as project manager and editorial oversight for talking points and feature profiles for the next few weeks
20:09:23 <mchua> hey themayor!
20:09:38 <mether> IMO, we could done the release notes for Alpha a little bit better. I posted a TODO list in fedora-docs list and it got CC'ed to marketing as well later but not  many people edited it. We need to figure out how to get more people to contribute there
20:10:06 <mchua> mether: what would you like to see next time?
20:10:30 <mchua> mether: (for the record, we work off our queue, so if it hits https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/newticket, it hits our TODO list.)
20:11:03 <mether> for anyone wanting to edit the wiki still, https://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-docs-list/2009-August/msg00152.html
20:11:43 <mchua> It seems like most of us are spread somewhat thin right now, so talking points is a good opportunity to bring in new contributors - if you know someone who's interested in participating but hasn't found a way to get started yet, point them towards the marketing list and I'll make sure someone gets them started.
20:11:49 <mether> I think more indepth details on the new features, screenshots/screencasts of the UI changes would attract far more attention
20:12:05 <mether> mchua, i will work on the talking points when I find time
20:12:14 <mchua> mether: thanks!
20:12:49 <mchua> mether: agreed on alpha announcement - that would have been nice to have... let's make sure we get those things in for the beta announcement, I'd say.
20:13:13 <mether> yeah. any ideas on how to get more people to participate ?
20:14:37 <mchua> well, (1) get more people, and (2) make sure it's in a ticket (could you file one at https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/newticket with the criteria you think a good beta announcement needs to meet, so we can make sure it happens next round?)
20:15:05 <mether> ok
20:15:24 <mchua> Maybe being more clear about the importance and the impact of the announcement would help, too. Right now it might seem like one of those obligatory "argh, we need to write it" things.
20:15:33 <mchua> Why is it vital that we have it? that kind of thing.
20:15:59 <mchua> I would say the same thing for the talking points, which was the next agenda item (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_talking_points) and (as previously noted) needs writers.
20:16:32 <mchua> I'll take a pass through that job description and send a call on the list for people to help find new contributors to help with it.
20:16:55 <mchua> #action mchua to write Talking Points job descriptions - why is this work important? and send to list to help recruit newcomers
20:17:14 <mchua> #action mether to write Beta Announcement ticket - why is this work important? and send to list to help recruit newcomers as well.
20:18:04 <mchua> mether: do you think that's enough for a start? We've got plenty of time before the next Beta announcement - this might be a good chance to pop into marketing classes and see if any students want a project, too.
20:18:26 <mether> mchua, yeah. lets see what we can do better
20:19:21 <mchua> mether: ok. thanks for bringing this up - and once it's on a ticket, I'll make sure it stays on our radar.
20:19:32 <mchua> incremental improvement. it's a good thing. ;)
20:19:32 <mether> ok
20:19:57 <mchua> #topic Site redesigns: how can we get data to understand our users better?
20:20:35 <mether> Mo's quick survey in her blog got dozens and dozens of comments
20:20:48 <mether> we aren't doing more formal surveys on a regular basis. we should be
20:20:52 <mchua> Yup. And the mailing list thread is... approaching legendary status now.
20:21:18 <mchua> Last I heard, there was some usability lab equipment arriving in Boston, mizmo mentioned trying to take that to the Summit if it arrives on time.
20:21:28 <mether> for the record, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_surveys
20:21:50 <mether> the last detailed one we did was on 2005
20:21:54 <mchua> In general, mether +1; we need to do a better job of surveying and market research, because our understanding of our users is based largely on personal guesses at the moment.
20:22:11 <mchua> ...wow, that's an old survey
20:22:14 <mchua> Good stuff, though.
20:22:24 <mether> yeah. it has provided a lot of insights
20:22:35 <mether> but i am sure things have changed quite a bit after that
20:22:46 <mchua> Does anyone here have interest - and bandwidth - to run forward with market research?
20:22:52 <mether> if we put together one now, we could do it post F12 release
20:23:02 <mchua> That's a great idea.
20:23:13 <mchua> Trying to see how we can do it with the resources we have...
20:23:14 * mchua hrms
20:23:15 <mether> its a huge investment in time and I dont have it however
20:23:40 <mchua> Nor I.
20:23:53 * rbergeron notes that since she used to do that for a living...she might be able to help, but she's not sure what it all entails and she's still kind of looking at the FI stuff
20:23:54 <mchua> Well, I'll be meeting the Red Hat surveymaking gurus tomorrow afternoon.
20:24:01 <mchua> rbergeron: ...wait, really?
20:24:08 <mchua> rbergeron: That's AWESOME.
20:24:08 <stickster> mchua: Sorry, I'm late. Just got out of another meeting that ran long.
20:24:25 <rbergeron> orly, i really used to be a industry analyst
20:24:30 <mchua> rbergeron: Yes, the FI workflow stuff takes priority. But hypothetically that wraps up this week, right? :)
20:24:49 <rbergeron> hypothetically. i think we'll be talking about it soon here on the agenda.
20:24:55 <mchua> rbergeron: Yup yup.
20:25:00 <mether> mchua, is the modules suggested in logistics list already packaged and running in the test instance? what about theming
20:25:11 <rbergeron> but i'm just piping up saying i understand that stuff, but I have no clue what all is going on here with what you have wrt market surveys, that kind of thing.
20:25:22 <mchua> mether: yep, we'll get to that in a moment - our last (and huge) agenda item is Fedora Insight
20:25:26 <rbergeron> other than it looks like nothing's been done since 2008
20:25:28 <mether> ok
20:25:41 <mchua> rbergeron: ...that would pretty much seem to be it, yup.
20:25:45 <mether> rbergeron, 2005 really. 2008 one is rather short
20:26:03 <mchua> rbergeron: Is market research what you'd like to work on, then? If so, we should get FI workflow off your plate and handed off asap. ;)
20:26:45 <rbergeron> i'm not entirely sure that i can commit to liking it without knowing what all is going on or what is needed :)
20:27:02 <mchua> The two things I see coming up that could also potentially help with market research (not for the site redesign specifically - we don't have enough time - but to guide future releases, hopefully) are https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/21 and https://fedorahosted.org/marketing-team/ticket/8
20:27:34 <mchua> rbergeron: fair enough. :) sounds like this is something generally in your area of interest and expertise, though.
20:28:11 <mchua> (#21 is "Red Hat marketing is a resource!" and #8 is "Sean Daly, head of Sugar Labs marketing, is a resource!")
20:28:35 <rbergeron> right, i'm looking at it
20:29:06 <mchua> Anyhow, it sounds like market research is something we should focus on getting for F12 - I think after FI deployment is settled, and talking points and feature profiles are underway, it's the next thing to attack.
20:30:03 <rbergeron> mchua: is "market research" just kind of wide-open right now, or is there a specific task list / request list of things to be done?
20:30:15 <mchua> What I'm thinking in terms of project priorities right now (pushback welcome!) is that first we need FI as a platform to publish our materials on, talking points and feature profiles and release announcements as crucial marketing materials to push out on it, and *then* market research to determine the effect and/or direction we should go.
20:30:19 <mchua> rbergeron: Wiiiiide open.
20:30:45 <mchua> rbergeron: This might mean "create specific task list for a classroom full of marketing students to help out with." It's on my list to try to hunt down a couple of those.
20:30:47 <rbergeron> okay. i'll write up some thoughts on what could theoretically be done.
20:30:55 <mchua> rbergeron: That would be a huge help, thanks!
20:31:35 <mchua> #action rbergeron drafting a list of market research tasks that could theoretically be done by F12 volunteers
20:31:40 <rbergeron> i have some really opinionated thoughts there having been there, done that on both ends (the corporate mkt research needer end and the market research writer end)
20:31:55 <mchua> #action mchua to send "interested in working with us?" introduction emails to several business schools + marketing classes
20:32:38 <mchua> rbergeron: That's awesome. And... oh man, I really need to introduce you and Sean Daly when he gets back from vacation, then.
20:33:16 <mchua> He's also an experienced marketer professionally, and has been doing wondrous things in Sugar Labs (I've learned most of the little I know about marketing by watching him, really).
20:34:29 <mchua> Ok. Market research is on the horizon - we'll see what we can do with it as we know more about the resources we have available (I'll hit up those schools...) and what can be done ( rbergeron will make an awesome-tastic list).
20:34:54 <mchua> and we can watch the current website redesign discussion as a baseline for how we currently make decisions without the benefit of market research. ;)
20:35:03 <mchua> ...and now the topic that you've all been waiting for.
20:35:05 <mchua> #topic Fedora Insight
20:35:53 <mchua> mether, I know you had some questions - after rbergeron describes the workflow we have, want to bring them up again?
20:36:13 <mchua> Links, for those reading the logs:
20:36:15 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight
20:36:21 <mchua> in particular
20:36:25 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight#Schedule
20:36:44 <mether> mchua, ok
20:37:06 <mchua> is very tight; we've got ~3 weeks to complete the design and everything needs to be packaged and deployed and moved to staging by September 20, which is less than a month away.
20:37:22 <mchua> rbergeron: workflow czar, what shall we do? :)
20:37:30 * rbergeron puts on her hat
20:38:06 <rbergeron> Sonar_Guy: the public testing instance of FI is populated with categories, at this point
20:38:12 <rbergeron> darnit!!
20:38:17 <rbergeron> why does it do that... client, bad
20:38:18 <rbergeron> moving on
20:38:23 <rbergeron> we've got categories.
20:38:45 <rbergeron> we've got groups of users, which right now consist of "users", which are basically people submitting articles / news items / etc, and admins, who have the rights to publish.
20:39:07 <rbergeron> and admins also get to choose whether or not a submitted item is featured on the front page in a highlighted fashion.
20:39:15 <mchua> #link https://publictest6.fedoraproject.org/zikula/
20:39:19 <mchua> to see the current Work of Majesty
20:39:27 <rbergeron> now, we had some discussions yesterday - mchua, quaid, some others were around - with regards to how to handle things like:
20:39:30 <rbergeron> translations
20:39:37 <rbergeron> things like email notifications, etc.
20:39:55 <rbergeron> because a workflow becomes somewhat difficult to... flow with, if you will
20:40:04 <rbergeron> if there isn't a mechanism to make sure the flow is going.
20:40:23 <mether> If I may interrupt a bit
20:40:40 <rbergeron> interrupt away
20:40:40 <mether> the discussions with mchua quaid etc, was it a planned meeting?
20:40:57 <rbergeron> no, we were all kind of on vampire hours, i think.
20:41:01 <rbergeron> i should add we were also talking with simon
20:41:09 <rbergeron> who is the zikula guy... itbegins
20:41:14 <rbergeron> is his irc name
20:41:38 <mether> it would be more useful to announce and schedule such meetings rather than doing it adhoc. gives more chances for other people to participate
20:42:03 <rbergeron> so while i was talking with him, there was some discussion as to whether or not these things we wanted to do could be done with ease in a timely manner
20:42:39 <mchua> mether: announcing FI work-sprints on the mailing list would be a good idea, yep.
20:42:41 <mether> if it kind of did happen anyway, posting a summary, logs would be good
20:42:53 <rbergeron> mether: i don't think it was intended that it was a meeting, more of a "what the heck am i doing wrong to not be able to make this happen" and a "well, to do that, it's going to be a little more complicated" kind of thing.
20:43:01 * rbergeron wonders how far back /lastlog will go
20:43:17 <rbergeron> mether: noted. i'm new here :)
20:43:40 <mether> in that case, a summary would have been useful.  I would be very much interested in participating in the insight thing but cannot afford to be on irc on timings suitable for others usually
20:44:14 <mether> 2:10 AM now here for instance
20:44:26 <mchua> mether: Thanks for the inclusiveness poke. Looks like we've got the meeting-logging bot in #fedora-mktg as well, so let's see if we can make that a cultural habit within the Marketing team to use it when discussions seem important to preserve and summarize.
20:45:01 <mchua> #action mchua to send out a "hey, meetbot is in the channel, and it's awesome! let's use it to log important conversations" email to the list.
20:45:09 <mether> anyway continue
20:45:11 <rbergeron> okay. moving on:
20:45:39 <rbergeron> so at this point, the workflow, which i think was originally intended to be able to prompt people to do things at certain times, etc. is basically boiled down to this:
20:46:22 <rbergeron> someone with appropriate permissions submits an article.  they choose the appropriate content category (interviews, success stories, etc).
20:46:27 <rbergeron> they submit it.
20:46:58 <rbergeron> someone of a higher admin order, whose name has yet to be determined, makes the call on publishing it, and what priority / highlighting it should be.
20:47:24 <rbergeron> and beyond that, notifications, splitting out into multiple groups, simon believes will take some custom scripting.
20:47:46 <rbergeron> so it seems that some of the workflow will still be how it currently is.
20:47:58 <rbergeron> people having to pay attention to things coming in, or going out.
20:48:08 <rbergeron> until some better mechanisms can be put in place.
20:48:16 <rbergeron> NS I RHIN
20:48:34 <mchua> NS I RHIN?
20:48:45 <rbergeron> yargh, i mean, and i think that the translations piece is going to be particularly tricky, but i know docs is working on their own zikula instance
20:48:53 <rbergeron> fingers = wrong row
20:49:09 <mchua> rbergeron: is the workflow drawn/written up somewhere? This is a very helpful overview.
20:49:09 <rbergeron> ...their own ziula instance, and doing some things to enable that translation thing to get going.
20:49:56 <mchua> Yep.
20:50:01 <rbergeron> i will send something out after meeting. but really: the workflow isn't that complicated at this point. there is basically a writers group, and an approvers group.
20:51:17 <mchua> I wrote this to logistics (and will send out an FI status email later tonight summarizing this all for both marketing and logistics) but translations in zikula is something we're likely to have for F13, not F12 - for F12, we're going to try to enable translators to do it on their own as easily as possible, but the software won't magically support it because the modules are tricky and won't be ready in time.
20:51:18 <rbergeron> this pagemaster module that i've heard about seems to support more of the stuff that needs to be done, per simon
20:51:41 <mchua> #action rbergeron to send out workflow details and instructions to mailing list
20:51:55 <mchua> #action mchua to send FI project status update to mailing list
20:52:09 <rbergeron> and i sent simon a mail earlier today, i'm trying to get the categories on the righthand bars to show appropriate category content
20:52:32 * mchua nods
20:53:11 <mchua> rbergeron: ooh, could we copy the logistics list on those emails? folks interested in zikula setup are there, and it might be handy for the docs folks to see the convos you and Simon have about this too.
20:53:28 <rbergeron> sure thing
20:53:42 <rbergeron> i should probably get on that list since it seems like things going on there are things i might want to hear about :)
20:53:54 * mchua grins
20:54:18 <mchua> rbergeron: once you send out that workflow email, consider workflow done and off your plate, us content-crankers will take it from there. :)
20:54:32 <rbergeron> anyway: it seems like the workflow stuff really isn't much in the way of workflow :\
20:54:40 <rbergeron> i think it's a starting point though.
20:55:16 <mchua> rbergeron: It's been incredibly helpful, though - what this has done is actually shown us exactly how we'll be using zikula, and (even more importantly) turned our formerly vague-and-hand-wavy "we'd like FI to do something like this-ish" list into concrete technical requirements.
20:56:03 <mchua> rbergeron: you and Simon have made FI a Real Thing over the last week - I can actually see us using this to publish things now.
20:56:40 <rbergeron> yeah
20:57:15 <rbergeron> i keep thinking of "things" ...
20:57:31 <rbergeron> how will media be published... for example
20:57:52 <mchua> Ooh, good point.
20:57:57 <rbergeron> biertie: i have a video, podcast, etc... those things need to be added to the articles page.
20:58:19 <rbergeron> articles submission, i should say. ie: click here to upload / attach whatever it is that you have in the way of media
20:58:51 <rbergeron> future events, current events submissions... ideally, one would probably want some sort of dropdown box with dates that a user can pick, for uniformity
20:59:09 <mchua> rbergeron: I'm looking forward to reading all about this in the writeup tonight. :)
20:59:11 <rbergeron> i think those are easily solved problems, though
20:59:27 <rbergeron> they just need to be dealt with
20:59:39 * mchua nods
20:59:54 <rbergeron> anyway
21:00:00 <mchua> rbergeron: if you can list as many of those open questions as possible in your writeup tonight, that would be great.
21:00:05 * mchua looks at clock - yikes!
21:00:16 <mchua> I think this is the first marketing meeting I've gone over time on. ;)
21:01:07 <mchua> mether: what were the questions you wanted to bring up? should we talk about them outside the meeting (and then update the list), or do you want to keep going?
21:01:27 <mether> few small questions
21:01:49 <mether> is the modules recommended in the logistics list already packaged and running in the test instance?
21:01:55 <mether> who is taking care of the theming
21:02:02 <mchua> (Let's try to wrap up in 10 minutes, though - I don't want to go too far over time.)
21:02:10 <mether> and when are we expecting to launch
21:02:27 <mether> i have read all the previous conversations on this topic
21:02:37 <mether> so if there is a link which answers these
21:02:42 <mether> that would very much suffice
21:02:54 <mchua> mether: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_Insight should answer all three.
21:02:58 <mether> s/i have/i have not
21:03:00 <mchua> mether: If it isn't on there, it isn't getting done right now.
21:03:03 <mether> alright
21:03:04 <mether> thanks
21:03:13 <mether> thats it then
21:03:32 <mchua> That's all I had - FI update going to logistics and marketing list tonight.
21:03:55 <mchua> We've got a few weeks before our Beta release deliverables really hit, so sprinting all-out on FI until then is priority #1.
21:04:12 <mchua> Floor is open - anyone else have anything they'd like to discuss?
21:04:35 * mchua looks around
21:04:41 <mchua> Ok - then we're finishing in 5...
21:04:44 * mchua dons jetpack
21:04:45 <mchua> 4...
21:04:48 * mchua dons helmet
21:04:49 <mchua> 3...
21:04:54 * mchua does safety check (for the first time)
21:04:56 <mchua> 2...
21:04:57 <mchua> 1...
21:04:59 <mchua> #endmeeting