16:01:09 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2015-01-06
16:01:09 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan  6 16:01:09 2015 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:01:09 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:01:11 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
16:01:11 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
16:01:13 <sesivany> #topic Roll Call
16:01:27 <sesivany> robyduck: ping
16:01:33 <sesivany> masta: ping
16:01:36 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
16:01:36 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
16:03:06 <sesivany> i haven't seen any regrets.
16:03:16 <sesivany> so theoretically everyone should be here :)
16:03:23 <tuanta> :)
16:04:37 <tuanta> I am also in another meeting (Server WG)
16:04:48 <sesivany> tuanta: I heard the DVDs arrived to Beijing, any updates on the packages to Singapore?
16:05:06 <tuanta> yes, nice. I heard that too. Thanks
16:05:17 <tuanta> no more updates from Singapore
16:06:30 <sesivany> tuanta: btw it's time to start planning budgets for FY2016, we should come up with something in 2 weeks.
16:07:43 <tuanta> sesivany, yes, we had a nice FAD in PP and we have done a draft already
16:07:53 <tuanta> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAD:PhnomPenh_2014/events
16:08:07 <tuanta> that is the first FAD in APAC for budget planning
16:08:23 <sesivany> aeperezt: are you also already working on the FY16 budget for LATAM?
16:08:55 <aeperezt> sesivany, yes
16:09:30 <aeperezt> happy new year famsco
16:10:07 <tuanta> thanks aeperezt :)
16:10:11 <tuanta> same to you
16:10:42 <sesivany> aeperezt: to you too!
16:11:09 <sesivany> aeperezt: how about FUDCon LATAM 2015? Any potential bids?
16:12:01 <aeperezt> sesivany, not sure who will submit but hear intentions from Argentina, Mexico and Ecuador
16:13:38 <tuanta> APAC regional community voted to support Pune, India to held APAC FUDCon 2015
16:13:41 <tuanta> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2014-December/001647.html
16:13:42 <sesivany> aeperezt: all the countries sound good!
16:13:57 <aeperezt> sesivany, yes
16:14:06 <tuanta> +1 sesivany. quite potential
16:14:07 * masta is here
16:14:24 <sesivany> #topic FUDCon APAC 2015
16:14:41 * sesivany is reading it...
16:16:22 <tuanta> Pune did a great preparation
16:17:38 <tuanta> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FUDCon:Bid_for_Pune_2015
16:18:02 <sesivany> tuanta: can you please sum up the reasons why you chose Pune over Cambodia?
16:18:30 <sesivany> tuanta: I don't want to object that, just would like to know the reasons.
16:19:01 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
16:19:56 <tuanta> one reason is there is a big Fedora community in Pune and that bid is supported by Red Hat Pune as well
16:20:49 <tuanta> while Cambodian team would have to face a big problem with money (spend first then get reimbursement)
16:20:50 <sesivany> tuanta: Red Hat India will provide additional budget, too, if I read correctly.
16:20:59 <tuanta> yes, correct
16:21:31 <tuanta> Cambodian team is growing but too small now (especially compared to Pune one)
16:21:56 <tuanta> we had a big problem with money for the last Phnom Penh FAD
16:22:35 <tuanta> siddesh and myself had to bring cash there to pay for almost stuffs
16:22:53 <sesivany> tuanta: I see
16:23:08 <tuanta> they got difficulties to prepare enough money
16:23:28 <tuanta> and also PayPal could not be used in Cambodia
16:23:44 <sesivany> tuanta: I also told gnokii that it'd be better for them to wait one more year, get ready, and prepare a great FUDCon in FY2016.
16:24:07 <tuanta> yes, APAC community agreed with that
16:24:59 <tuanta> it's best to hold other events first to build up the community
16:25:03 <tuanta> in PP
16:26:12 <tuanta> if they are active in 2015, they can do a lot of things and make more chances for themselves for their next FUDCon bids
16:26:17 <sesivany> I don't really have any objections to the Pune bid. They have a strong community, the bid seems to be well done, they have support of Red Hat India,...
16:26:46 <tuanta> yes, so do I
16:27:10 <sesivany> the only downside I see is that FUDCon has already been in India several times, but that's really the only minus and if we have the strongest community in APAC there, why not.
16:27:10 <tuanta> I voted for them during the regional meeting
16:27:26 <tuanta> yes, I think so
16:27:41 <tuanta> until other parts of APAC are ready enough
16:28:14 <tuanta> I myself want to have FUDCon in Vietnam, but it is impossible at this moment since the community here is not strong enough
16:29:48 <tuanta> APAC need nice annual FUDCon to grow up ourselves more and more
16:30:10 <sesivany> tuanta: it's just two of us, but I think it's not any kind of legal decision, so I think we can say that FAmSCo has reviewed the bid and agrees with the choice. Or should we wait till the next meeting?
16:30:32 <tuanta> yes, I think we can
16:30:58 <tuanta> it has been sent over the FAmSCo mailing list for weeks
16:31:10 <sesivany> ok
16:31:11 <tuanta> and there is no objection
16:31:42 <tuanta> the final decision is up to FPL
16:31:57 <sesivany> #info FAmSCo has reviewed the FUDCon Pune bid and agrees with the choice.
16:32:04 * masta has to go now
16:32:04 <tuanta> and another important stuff is OSAS as they decide budget
16:32:07 <masta> bye
16:32:30 <tuanta> I hope FPL and OSAS will support us
16:32:34 <sesivany> masta: bye
16:32:41 <tuanta> bye masta
16:34:12 <tuanta> next topic, I would like to discuss about how we can manage transaction fees for reimbursements
16:34:32 <tuanta> it has been also posted onto the list
16:34:33 <sesivany> #topic Transaction fees for reimbursements
16:34:41 <tuanta> #link https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2015-January/001654.html
16:34:56 <tuanta> it is bigger and bigger in APAC now
16:35:42 <tuanta> I myself lost hundreds bucks in that :(
16:36:12 <tuanta> so it is a hot topic in recent regional meetings
16:36:25 <sesivany> the problem is that the rule for credit card holders is: no receipt, no reimbursement. They can't reimburse more than it's on the receipt.
16:36:38 <tuanta> yes, correct
16:36:43 <sesivany> what is a transaction fee in APAC?
16:36:50 <sesivany> percentage or fix?
16:37:21 <tuanta> for PayPal, it is in percentage
16:37:33 <robyduck> hi, sorry
16:37:40 <tuanta> + a small fix amount
16:37:44 <sesivany> how much? 1%, 5%?
16:37:46 <tuanta> hi robyduck :)
16:38:14 * tuanta is double checking
16:38:31 <tuanta> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-apac/ticket/167
16:38:37 * robyduck reads backlog
16:39:02 <tuanta> it is different among countries
16:39:12 <tuanta> but usually, it is about 4-5%
16:39:58 <tuanta> just PayPal fee
16:40:22 <sesivany> my opinion is that we cover all travel and lodging expenses for someone to go to an event, I don't think it's such a big issue to contribute <5 % from his pocket. Many projects have 80:20 rule. They support people only up to 80 % of total costs. We (ideally) support people up to 100%. Of course, if someone needs to pay expenses for some event, e.g. FAD from his pocket, the expenses are not really related to him, it's a different
16:40:24 <sesivany> question.
16:41:40 <tuanta> yes, it is reasonable enough, but it could not applied to all people in all cases
16:42:45 <sesivany> tuanta: so if for example you need to pay expenses for FAD in cash, it's legitimate to reimburse you 100%, but if someone is flown to FUDCon to attend and Fedora pays his airfare and hotel, I think he/she could cover the transation fees.
16:43:09 <tuanta> sesivany, it is make sense
16:43:14 <sesivany> tuanta: that's why I think it's probably better to accumulate the fees and ask for reimbursement in a separate ticket.
16:43:39 <sesivany> where he/she can explain why transaction fees should be reimbursed.
16:43:48 <tuanta> yes, that way is fair enough
16:44:01 <tuanta> we can decide case by case
16:44:22 <tuanta> we can pre-define almost cases in advance
16:44:34 <sesivany> but we have to consult it with credit card holders.
16:44:42 <tuanta> write onto a wiki for reference
16:44:45 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
16:44:50 <tuanta> also, another lost is currency exchange difference between PayPal and the real world
16:45:55 <sesivany> hmm... those are kind of hidden costs that are very difficult to legally reimburse :/
16:46:11 <robyduck> tuanta: you are not obliged to change dollars
16:46:28 <tuanta> for example, when I exchanged vnd to usd to bring to FAD PP it is about 21500 vnd/usd but when I withdraw it from PayPal (after got reimbursement) it is just about 20500 vnd/usd
16:46:29 <robyduck> I think that's not something we can reimburse
16:47:33 <tuanta> it is also a big different, maybe equal to transaction fees
16:47:53 <sesivany> even I as a Red Hat employee don't get reimbursed for exchange differences. If I go to a business trip, I exchange money in an exchange office where I get the "BUY" rate, but when I make an expense report in Red Hat, I'm reimbursed in "MIDDLE" rate :-(
16:48:15 <tuanta> :)
16:48:21 <tuanta> that is just an excample
16:48:28 <tuanta> s/example
16:48:30 <robyduck> sesivany: tuanta: I think that's correct, how would you handle this otherwise?
16:49:01 <tuanta> "middle" rate would be a good way too
16:50:04 <tuanta> in my case, I lost over $50 after FAD PP, just for a total amount of $550
16:50:20 <tuanta> it is a big lost. Do you think so?
16:50:40 <tuanta> about 10%
16:50:47 <sesivany> tuanta: I understand it's an important issue and it's bad if people have to pay such things from their pockets, but it's really difficult legally. Even community credit cards as they are now is a big compromise for RH financials and legal. I think we should gather all relevant people for discussion at Flock. It's not an issue we will solve in 2 months.
16:51:16 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
16:51:42 <sesivany> frankly, I don't know what is legally possible and what is not.
16:52:42 <tuanta> it is also available in EMEA, right?
16:52:46 <sesivany> the best way is to have a redhatter with a corporate credit card, when we had a FAD in Rheinland, I paid everything with my corporate credit card and no reimbursement was needed.
16:52:47 <tuanta> similar?
16:53:09 <tuanta> it is a good solution too
16:53:31 <sesivany> I didn't lose any money on exchange rare because Red Hat was charged directly.
16:53:35 <tuanta> in the past, it was fine enough when Harish did his job to support us
16:54:06 <tuanta> but now, Izhar is not a RedHatter :(
16:54:09 <sesivany> I only had to create an expanse report and have it transferred to OSAS cost center.
16:54:35 <tuanta> it is an ideal case :)
16:54:44 <sesivany> can credit card holders pay directly or only reimburse via PayPal?
16:55:03 <sesivany> because I think they can work the same way I do.
16:55:05 <tuanta> most of the times, he does reimburse
16:55:26 <sesivany> it's a credit card issued on behalf of Red Hat after all.
16:55:52 <tuanta> one thing is because he could not available at the time we need to spend  money
16:55:59 <tuanta> on the other hand,
16:56:12 <tuanta> people in APAC usually use cash
16:56:51 <tuanta> cc is more and more popular, but in most cases, we can pay in cash only
16:57:02 <sesivany> and they cannot withdraw cash from ATM, right?
16:57:07 <sesivany> at least I can't.
16:57:08 <tuanta> yes
16:57:12 <tuanta> he can not
16:57:40 <tuanta> Izhar can not do that with his cc
16:57:51 <tuanta> I can do it with my personal cc
16:58:01 <tuanta> but it is not a community card :)
16:58:11 <sesivany> but as I said, about this we need to talk to credit card holders and Ruth. I'm trying to help kital in EMEA as much as possible, but don't know much about community cc specifics.
16:58:25 <robyduck> +1 sesivany
16:58:40 <tuanta> kital got a simialr problem, I think
16:58:49 <tuanta> he did support APAC for a while
16:59:03 <tuanta> and the problem is also there
16:59:18 <tuanta> at his side
16:59:29 <tuanta> even he is more strict than izhar :)
17:00:24 <tuanta> we have not talked about Western Union yet
17:00:31 <tuanta> it is much much worse
17:00:49 <sesivany> I guess they charge much more than PayPal.
17:01:21 <tuanta> we had to use that way a few times to reimburse for Cambodian team
17:01:31 <tuanta> let me say that:
17:01:31 <robyduck> and for this reason we should avoid WU
17:02:36 <tuanta> 1. izhar had to sent money (as in the receipt) to his PayPal; 2. he withdraw it to his bank; 3. he withdrew from the bank. and 4. send it to Cambodia over WU
17:03:29 <tuanta> aster the whole process, it lost about 20-25% or more
17:04:21 <tuanta> that's also why I can not vote for Cambodian bid
17:04:43 <tuanta> they will have to face a really big problem when holding the FUDCon
17:04:56 <tuanta> :)
17:05:03 <robyduck> I think we cannot discuss every single operation, it's up to CC holders and Ruth, IMHO.
17:05:18 <tuanta> yes, robyduck
17:05:24 <tuanta> time is up today too
17:05:42 <tuanta> hope you can feel the actual situation
17:05:54 <tuanta> after my "speech"
17:05:56 <sesivany> ok, thank you for coming, it was a productive meeting discussion-wise in the end.
17:05:57 <tuanta> :)
17:06:19 <robyduck> but did you vote about FUDCon?
17:06:25 <tuanta> thanks sesivany robyduck
17:06:29 <sesivany> robyduck: yes, we did.
17:06:33 <tuanta> yes robyduck
17:06:39 <sesivany> robyduck: we just reviewed it.
17:06:48 <sesivany> robyduck: FPL decides.
17:06:51 <tuanta> "we" agreed to support Pune
17:07:01 <robyduck> Pune again?
17:07:08 <tuanta> yes
17:07:25 <robyduck> tuanta: "we" you mean you had a quorum?
17:07:49 <tuanta> no, robyduck just two of us, before you attend
17:08:13 <tuanta> I think it has been sent over the list for weeks
17:08:20 <robyduck> we should first vote all on this, before passing it to FPL
17:08:24 <robyduck> nope
17:08:37 <tuanta> and there is no objection
17:08:43 <tuanta> we can not vote is this meeting
17:08:54 <robyduck> but we can vote on ML
17:09:04 <robyduck> or an official ticket
17:09:05 <tuanta> yes, we can do that
17:09:15 <sesivany> robyduck: it's not about voting, it's about reviewing the bid, we're not to make a decision.
17:09:53 <tuanta> it is best if we can make a consensus
17:10:03 <robyduck> I know, but I don't understand why we don't give a chance to other communities
17:10:25 <tuanta> robyduck, you meant PP team?
17:10:26 <robyduck> there were 4 FUDCons and 2 of them were in India
17:10:35 <tuanta> or which communities?
17:10:39 <robyduck> it's not about PP, it's about every local community
17:10:56 <tuanta> ah, yes. it make sense to me
17:11:05 <robyduck> I next year we have Vietnam, or Indonesia, and again India, what will happen?
17:11:14 <tuanta> back to our discussion before you came
17:11:20 <tuanta> I told sesivany that
17:11:28 <robyduck> We should try to get other communitites and countries involved, that's my opinion
17:11:31 <sesivany> robyduck: there were two bids, and we spent 30 minutes discussing how difficult it is to get money to Cambodia just to organize a FAD.
17:11:36 <tuanta> "I myself want to have FUDCon in Vietnam, but it is impossible at this moment since the community here is not strong enough"
17:12:17 <robyduck> tuanta: if you co-host the event (as PP) it is a great thing, we saw this last year in Beijing
17:12:21 <tuanta> +1 sesivany. it is one of the biggest problems for PP team
17:12:46 <sesivany> robyduck: yes, we should get other countries involved, but it's a task for 2016, now it's too late to get countries involved, we have two bids and we have to choose one of them because the event is just a few months away.
17:13:13 <tuanta> China team is much more active and bigger than Cambodian one
17:13:20 <robyduck> it's 5 or 9 months away
17:13:40 <sesivany> tuanta explained why he didn't propose a Vietnamese bid.
17:13:41 <robyduck> ok, then I'll add a +1 to PP from my side, for the record. Sorry for attending late today
17:14:45 <sesivany> anything else today?
17:14:57 <tuanta> nope from me
17:15:14 <robyduck> no, see ya next week
17:15:20 <sesivany> ok, see you!
17:15:22 <tuanta> yes, see you
17:15:25 <sesivany> #endmeeting