17:00:17 <sesivany> #startmeeting FAmSCo 2013-04-01
17:00:17 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Apr  1 17:00:17 2013 UTC.  The chair is sesivany. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:17 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:00:19 <sesivany> #meetingname famsco
17:00:19 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:00:25 <sesivany> #topic Roll call
17:00:33 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:00:34 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:01:17 <sesivany> aeperezt, nb: ping
17:01:29 <aeperezt> sesivany, pong
17:01:38 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:01:38 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:01:53 <sesivany> aeperezt: looks like we're just two today.
17:02:20 <sesivany> aeperezt: frankly I was considering to bail out, too, because we have national Easter holidays here.
17:02:25 <aeperezt> sesivany, o with the budget topic on the list I was thinking we were going to be more of us
17:02:45 <aeperezt> sesivany, o can be
17:03:13 <aeperezt> sesivany, let wait 15 min
17:03:25 <sesivany> aeperezt: looks like I was the only unsatisfied :)
17:03:45 <tuanta> .fas tuanta
17:03:46 <zodbot> tuanta: tuanta 'Truong Anh Tuan' <tuanta@iwayvietnam.com>
17:03:46 <tuanta> hello
17:03:53 <sesivany> hi, tuanta
17:04:20 <tuanta> hi
17:04:28 <aeperezt> sesivany, we are not satisfied but latam has the lacks of records on how much we spend my first draft of the budget for latam was around what we got
17:04:39 <aeperezt> hi tuanta
17:05:05 <sesivany> let's wait a few more minutes if someone else shows up
17:05:16 <sesivany> then we can jump right into the budget topic.
17:05:29 <aeperezt> so kind of, but we need more if we want to grow and give better support
17:05:49 <tuanta> right
17:06:31 <sesivany> ok, let's start.
17:06:47 <sesivany> #topic Regional Budgets for FY14
17:07:04 <sesivany> I suppose you saw how much money we got...
17:07:31 <sesivany> the proposed budgets were cut by approx. 30%.
17:07:41 <tuanta> yes
17:08:11 <aeperezt> sesivany, right
17:08:12 <sesivany> for EMEA, it's drastic.
17:08:41 <aeperezt> sesivany, I think they based on what we spend over the year
17:08:45 <sesivany> we have a lot of activity here, many events we attend/organize every year, cutting it by 30% is a lot.
17:09:06 <tuanta> at the first glance, I don't know how they cut it?
17:09:19 <sesivany> but I'm afraid we can't do much about it.
17:09:29 * herlo is here, and apologizes for being late..
17:09:40 <tuanta> seems they cut a percent for each quarter by each regions?
17:10:06 <tuanta> I meant the same percent of each quarter by each regions
17:10:16 <tuanta> hello herlo
17:10:26 <tuanta> we also just started
17:10:28 <herlo> tuanta: aiui, they basically took requests by quarter and matched them to what amount was available.
17:10:38 <sesivany> my plan for EMEA is to cut all event budgets by 10%, wait with other expenses such as swag and there is every expensive FOSDEM at the end of the year which we will have to cut a lot if we don't find additional money by that time.
17:11:25 <herlo> so essentially, if you had requested $15000 in Q2, they might have cut it by 8%, so you'd only have received $13800
17:12:13 <herlo> sesivany: keep in mind, there's still a discretionary fund that you can request out of when things are tight. I'm not saying to use it every time, but if you are short when FOSDEM comes, it is clear to me that there will likely be a little extra to help out.
17:12:42 <herlo> this is per robyn's initial email.
17:13:15 <sesivany> herlo:  yeah, we're really lucky that FOSDEM is so late in the year. It's $6k in our budget which is almost the difference.
17:13:49 <tuanta> herlo: it's not only 8%, it's about 30%
17:14:38 <tuanta> e.g. APAC requested $3,900 for the 1st quarter, but it's cut off to $2,800
17:14:47 <aeperezt> sesivany, we have almost the same situation with fisl but it is on the middle of the year and last year they did a FAD there in order to be there
17:15:00 <tuanta> similar in others
17:15:18 <sesivany> I don't want to cancel any events, so my proposal for EMEA is to cut all events by 10% which is still doable and have FOSDEM as a reserve. But we'll need $2k for FOSDEM under any circumstances.
17:15:46 <herlo> tuanta: that was an example
17:15:51 <aeperezt> we have to manage and FISL for us is important but we can lower the budget there and look for other resources
17:16:06 <herlo> I was just explaining how the values were cut down
17:16:44 <tuanta> herlo: yes, as sesivany mentioned above, in fact, it has been cut off approx 30%
17:17:09 <tuanta> sesivany: +1
17:17:37 <herlo> this is a good time to review what was requested in each region and discuss what is *really* important to the regional fedora community. I don't see any reason to stress about it, just be responsible and make every effort to spend the money wisely. If you get in a pinch, I'm sure it can be worked out.
17:18:19 <herlo> tuanta: yes. Thank you for re-explaining, but again, I was just giving an example. The amount wasn't important for my example. Clearly it's important overall, though.
17:19:46 <tuanta> yes, herlo
17:19:52 <sesivany> herlo: and I think we'll be forced to switch to typical corporate budget mode anyway. FYI typical corporate budget mode = defer all expenses that can be deferred till the end of quarter/year and be ready to make them if there are any money left.
17:21:23 <herlo> sesivany: that, or throw away things that 'would be nice' and wait till the end of the quarter to see if there are any funds...
17:22:16 <tuanta> really?
17:26:36 <tuanta> I know, it's just a plan but it's all we have at this moment
17:26:43 <sesivany> herlo: yeah, but we don't have much fat (nice-to-have) to cut. In the budget, there are only $5k on swag for the whole EMEA (it's just for basic stuff such as stickers, buttons,...), $2k for shipping (even this is too little because shipping in EMEA is extremely expensive,), and then there are just events we've been doing for years. So cutting the budget means reducing our activity. I'll try to cancel as few things as possible, but it's not r
17:26:44 <tuanta> we tried to make it
17:26:45 <sesivany> eally about cutting nice-to-have things.
17:27:02 <sesivany> but I admit we have to face the reality and get along with money we got.
17:27:54 <tuanta> sesivany, yes, it seems we need to face it
17:27:55 * herlo notes this is probably a good learning experience.
17:28:06 <herlo> I would suggest future budget planning add a 'little fat'
17:28:31 <aeperezt> herlo, that is what I was writing :-)
17:28:37 <tuanta> btw, I agree mostly with John (http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/famsco/2013-March/001299.html)
17:29:04 <sesivany> herlo: yeah, we'll add some fat next time for sure :)
17:29:11 <tuanta> herlo: yeah, it may be a good way
17:29:14 <herlo> estimate over what you think it will be. My guess is that if we make sure to overestimate each event / activity / swag cost by just a little, it makes it easier to get closer to real numbers
17:29:24 * herlo remembers people being surprised by the NA budget
17:29:29 <herlo> this is because we did exactly that
17:29:34 <sesivany> but if everyone does (which we all will), then is not going to change anything :)
17:30:05 <herlo> what do you mean?
17:30:11 * tuanta smiling
17:30:54 <herlo> I think if everyone adds fat, it will do exactly as we expect. RH will give us X percent less and we'll be closer to what we wanted in the first place. Ask for the galaxy, expect the world
17:31:21 <sesivany> herlo: if everyone adds some fat to their budget, then the proportions of budgets won't change, the only difference is that it will be cut by, say, 40% instead of 30%.
17:31:35 <herlo> sesivany: it's not really true
17:32:07 <herlo> I find that ifyo uask for something, and then spend more than they give you, it can be proven that the need is greater and thus, more budget will be granted following years.
17:32:24 <herlo> it's a process though
17:32:34 <sesivany> herlo: do you think the money they give us money based on how much we ask for?
17:32:35 <herlo> we need to continue down this path for a few years. Build a history.
17:32:41 <herlo> sesivany: I do.
17:32:54 <herlo> that and the historical need
17:33:03 <tuanta> herlo: +1, we should have a good history
17:33:06 <herlo> if we can prove we need more, I suspect we'll get more
17:33:19 <aeperezt> herlo, +1
17:33:22 <herlo> but we have to be good citizens and work hard and show that we're using the money wisely
17:33:26 <sesivany> herlo: I think it's based on how much we spent recently, not on how much we asked for this year. So the only way to make the budget bigger is to spend it all this year.
17:33:29 <tuanta> it's better to discuss with all enough information
17:33:35 <herlo> sesivany: right, that is what I said
17:33:42 <herlo> and ask for more
17:33:47 <herlo> plus, keep asking for more each year
17:33:54 <tuanta> right too, sesivany
17:33:58 <herlo> as long as it meets our needs. No need to go crazy
17:34:08 <tuanta> ok, it makes sense, herlo
17:34:31 <herlo> but I'm suspecting we can get to somewhere around 150% of our current budget in the next 3-5 years, which is probably more where we should be anyway.
17:34:32 <tuanta> just manage it to spend wisely all time
17:35:13 <sesivany> so do we have any conclusion? As I said I'll propose to cut all expenses in EMEA a bit and defer all expenses that can be deferred to the end of the year and we'll be ready to spend it if we find more funding.
17:35:21 <aeperezt> part of the issue this time is that there is not really a way to know how much each region expended before, this should be the goal to have right numbers and also add the things we could not do because budget limitation so we can evaluate it better for the next fiscal year
17:35:22 <sesivany> that's probably every region should do.
17:36:19 <herlo> sesivany: I suggest each region do the same as you suggest. One suggestion though, don't wait until the end of the year. Evaluate near end of quarters instead.
17:36:21 <sesivany> aeperezt: if we track all expenses properly, we'll have a good overview how much each region spent.
17:36:46 <herlo> ask for money if it's really needed from discretionary budget (owner would be rsuehle)
17:36:49 <aeperezt> sesivany, right that should be the goal for us
17:38:04 <sesivany> aeperezt: I'm pretty sure EMEA always spent at least $30k, so for us, it's really cutting in what we've been doing, not in what we've been planning to do, but we'll have to deal with it.
17:39:21 <tuanta> I think herlo
17:39:29 <tuanta> I think herlo
17:39:57 <tuanta> I think we can follow herlo's idea
17:39:58 <sesivany> ok, I think the next step to do is adjusting the budgets to meet the reality.
17:40:27 <tuanta> sorry, my keyboard :(
17:41:03 <sesivany> tuanta, aeperezt, herlo: can you work on budgets for your regions?
17:41:35 <aeperezt> sesivany, at the end, with the limitations it is better than before
17:41:40 <tuanta> yes, I will see what we can do to meet the reality
17:41:46 <tuanta> in APAC
17:41:49 <aeperezt> sesivany, yes
17:41:50 <herlo> sesivany: well, I know that NA meeting this week is already addressing it, so sure.
17:42:18 <aeperezt> same on latam
17:42:24 * herlo suggests that if you are going to alter your budget, don't modify the 'requested budget', but make a second 'actual budget' or some such.
17:43:05 <herlo> so we have what we requested, what we got, and what we spent. This way we can bring these values back for next year's budget.
17:43:06 <tuanta> yes, herlo, good idea
17:43:11 <sesivany> tuanta: FUDCon APAC was cancelled, and I think rbergeron still has the money for the regions although it's rather for FAD events.
17:43:24 <herlo> sesivany: yes, and discretionary funds too
17:43:33 <tuanta> sesivany: yes,
17:43:44 <herlo> I think we're going to be okay. It looks more dire than it is, I believe.
17:43:53 <tuanta> we are planning for some *smaller* events such as FADs
17:43:54 <sesivany> herlo: yeah, let's make another columb.
17:44:13 <sesivany> something like Proposed, Received, Spent as you suggest.
17:45:01 <sesivany> one very important thing: don't rely on RH financials to track your expenses, I know RH financial reporting very well, it won't work :)
17:45:49 <tuanta> sesivany: lol
17:46:06 <sesivany> I'm tracking all expenses already in the community.
17:46:14 <tuanta> yes, I know. we should track everything ourselves
17:46:57 <tuanta> bckurera is budget wrangler in APAC. he's responsible to do this
17:47:06 <sesivany> what's really tricky is that RH budgeting is cash-based, not accrual-based as our budget.
17:47:10 <herlo> sesivany: sounds like a good plan. +1
17:47:28 <aeperezt> sesivany, that is the idea we manage the budget we should tracket
17:48:12 <sesivany> so expenses fall into a quarter when they're paid, not in which they belong to.
17:48:25 <sesivany> it sometimes makes a big difference.
17:48:45 <tuanta> it's different
17:49:04 <aeperezt> sesivany, that is good to kwo
17:49:28 <sesivany> for example someone buys a ticket to an event in Jan, but he gets reimbursed in, say, April. Then it falls into a different fiscal year.
17:50:52 <sesivany> but I recommend we stick with accrual-based budget and balance those differences with rsuehle in the end of quarters and the fiscal year.
17:51:16 <sesivany> otherwise it'd make things too complicated.
17:52:28 <sesivany> #action all regions to work on adjusting budgets to meet the budget reality.
17:52:35 <tuanta> yes, made sense
17:52:47 <tuanta> +1 sesivany
17:52:55 <sesivany> how much time will you need to adjust the budgets?
17:53:29 <sesivany> I can do it by the next meeting, but I'd like to discuss it with other ambassadors and the next meeting will be next week.
17:53:45 <aeperezt> sesivany, for next meeting should be ok
17:53:47 <aeperezt> I think
17:54:05 <tuanta> the next APAC meeting is 13th of April
17:54:37 <tuanta> so I can have results in the FAmSCo meeting after that
17:54:41 <sesivany> ok, let's have it for the next famsco meeting and then have a week to discuss it with regional communities.
17:54:49 <tuanta> so it's 15th of April
17:55:04 <tuanta> yes, sesivany
17:55:12 <tuanta> that's good
17:55:28 <sesivany> #undo
17:55:28 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x2a6d5910>
17:56:35 <sesivany> #action all regions to work on adjusting budgets to meet the budget reality. Let's have new versions for the next meeting on April 8th and then have a week to discuss it with regional communities so that we'll have final version by April 15th.
17:57:47 <sesivany> ok, is that all? I'll have to leave very soon, have a ride to Brno on snowy roads.
17:57:54 <tuanta> it's fine
17:58:01 <sesivany> one more thing...
17:58:27 <sesivany> #topic Meeting Time
17:58:42 <tuanta> ?
17:58:46 <sesivany> I think the time change has happened in all parts of the world already.
17:58:56 <sesivany> is everyone ok with the current time?
17:59:06 <tuanta> it's still midnight here :)
17:59:18 <aeperezt> still mid day here
17:59:22 <tuanta> sooner is better
17:59:24 <sesivany> for me, it's ok, but I'm also ok with having it one hour earlier to keep the same local time.
17:59:45 <tuanta> yes, it's better for me too
17:59:59 <tuanta> so I can end the meeting at midnight
18:00:02 <tuanta> to go to bed
18:00:11 <sesivany> aeperezt: would be one hour earlier a problem for you?
18:00:40 <aeperezt> sesivany, yes it will be trouble with work
18:00:44 <tuanta> an, how about you, herlo?
18:01:11 <sesivany> I know 6pm was a problem for cwickert, 7pm should be better.
18:01:37 <sesivany> let's bring it up in the mailing list so that others can say their preferences.
18:01:45 <tuanta> ok
18:01:54 <tuanta> just to select from two options
18:02:02 <tuanta> not too many others
18:02:07 <sesivany> for now, the meeting time stays at 5pm UTC.
18:02:14 <tuanta> ok
18:02:31 <sesivany> tuanta: yes, it will only be 4pm or 5pm UTC.
18:03:00 <tuanta> I prefer 4pm UTC but lets see others
18:03:13 <tuanta> time's up today
18:03:23 <tuanta> I think we should close the meeting
18:03:28 <sesivany> #info the FAmSCo meeting time stays at 5pm UTC after the time change, but it will be discussed in the mailing list since it might not suit everyone now.
18:03:29 <tuanta> anything else?
18:03:41 <sesivany> no, I'm ending it.
18:03:42 <aeperezt> not from me
18:03:47 <sesivany> than you, everyone, for coming.
18:03:55 <sesivany> #endmeeting