famsco
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17:01:54 <cwickert> #startmeeting FAMSCo 2012-07-30
17:01:54 <zodbot> Meeting started Mon Jul 30 17:01:54 2012 UTC.  The chair is cwickert. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:01:54 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:02:00 <cwickert> #meetingname famsco
17:02:00 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'famsco'
17:02:27 <cwickert> #topic Roll call
17:02:38 <cwickert> .fas cwickert
17:02:38 <zodbot> cwickert: cwickert 'Christoph Wickert' <christoph.wickert@googlemail.com>
17:02:38 * nb 
17:02:41 <sesivany> .fas eischmann
17:02:41 <zodbot> sesivany: eischmann 'Jiri Eischmann' <eischmann@redhat.com>
17:02:43 <nb> .fas nick@bebout
17:02:45 <zodbot> nb: nb 'Nick Bebout' <nick@bebout.net>
17:04:19 * cwickert counts 3
17:05:13 <sesivany> aeperezt should be around too
17:05:21 <aeperezt> .fas aeperezt
17:05:22 <zodbot> aeperezt: aeperezt 'Alejandro Perez' <alejandro.perez.torres@gmail.com>
17:07:01 <cwickert> #info: 4 people present, more likely to come in a bit
17:07:14 <cwickert> #topic Announcements
17:07:44 * cwickert looks for a mail
17:07:44 <sesivany> !
17:08:15 <cwickert> #info we are thinking about an all new way of doing FUDCons, see http://wordshack.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/the-future-of-fudcons/
17:08:20 <cwickert> sesivany: go ahead
17:08:28 <cwickert> and welcome back btw :)
17:09:24 <sesivany> I spoke with Spot and we might make a special hardware giveaway for ambassadors to have hardware at booths. He asked me to discuss with other FAMSCo members what hardware would be welcome.
17:09:29 <danielbruno> hello, i'm finally here
17:09:42 <danielbruno> sorry  for the delay
17:09:53 <sesivany> eof
17:11:22 <cwickert> sesivany: I think we should have hardware in the event boxes around the world
17:11:36 <cwickert> and I know that we are supposed to get some Thinkpads
17:11:53 <cwickert> need to ping inode0, IIRC NA already got some
17:12:11 <cwickert> ok, now for tickets, https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/report/9
17:12:23 <sesivany> cwickert: I think he meant rather "special" hardware such as OLPC, Raspberry,...
17:13:08 <cwickert> sesivany: yeah, but IHMO this special hardware is better off in an event box than at home at an ambassador
17:13:19 <nb> cwickert, NA got some old thinkpads
17:13:27 <nb> but i heard we might get some new hardware?
17:13:31 <sesivany> cwickert: then they will go to event boxes
17:13:39 <cwickert> sesivany: ah, ok
17:13:42 <cwickert> nb: ?!
17:13:52 <nb> cwickert, at fudcon blacksburg we got some old thinkpads from redhat
17:14:08 <nb> but i heard at SELF that we are getting the new laptops the interns got after the summer is over
17:14:12 <nb> they are going to the NA event boxes
17:14:21 <cwickert> why only NA?
17:14:29 <nb> cwickert, IDK about what the other regions are getting
17:14:35 <nb> maybe some are going there too?
17:14:49 <nb> i forgot how many laptops spot mentioned
17:15:01 <cwickert> well, EMEA didn't get some in the first batch, so we need to make sure to get some this time
17:15:14 <cwickert> anyway, lets continue with tickets
17:15:22 <sesivany> cwickert: I may ask about old laptops in our office.
17:15:46 <cwickert> sesivany: sure, but I think this should be coordinated.
17:16:08 <nb> it'd be nice if we could get OLPC 1.75's for the event boxes
17:16:23 <nb> we have OLPC 1's for the NA boxes, not sure what EMEA has
17:16:38 <cwickert> we don't even have OLPC1's
17:16:50 <nb> oh
17:16:54 <cwickert> I mean, we do have some, but they were donated by individuals
17:16:55 <aeperezt> same on Latam
17:17:04 <cwickert> like I donated one of the two I have
17:17:10 <sesivany> yeah, let's think about what hardware would be nice for event boxes.
17:17:48 <cwickert> nb: so from our perspective it looks like NA is complaining on a high level, this is why I would like to make sure all hardware gets shared wisely among the different regions
17:18:03 <nb> cwickert, i agree
17:18:15 <cwickert> something that just came to my head
17:18:29 <cwickert> #topic F17 media disaster
17:18:41 <cwickert> sesivany: how many installer DVDs are left?
17:18:49 <nb> cwickert, what kind of installer dvds did you get in EMEA?
17:18:54 <nb> the multi-arch or the regular?
17:18:59 <cwickert> nb: multi-arch
17:19:01 <cwickert> broken
17:19:06 <sesivany> cwickert: about 250
17:19:14 <nb> cwickert, yeah, we did too
17:19:24 <cwickert> we need to make sure we don't give out any broken media
17:19:52 * nb thinks we should get QA to add the multi-live and the multi-arch install to the release criteria
17:19:57 <cwickert> #info The F17 biarch installation DVD is broken, do not give it out on events
17:20:05 <cwickert> nb: we need to do it ourselves
17:20:25 <cwickert> basically all we need to test if that the ISOs book
17:20:28 <cwickert> boot
17:20:30 <sesivany> cwickert: it will have to be a subject of QA even though it might delay delivery by two days.
17:20:52 <nb> well, i don't see why it can't be in the formal release criteria
17:20:59 <cwickert> for F16, I tested the ISOs, this time nobody did
17:21:13 <nb> i.e. for the release to be gold, the multi-arch images have to be working
17:21:37 <cwickert> nb: well, you would delay the official release for an unofficial image
17:21:43 <cwickert> that does not make sense I think.
17:21:48 <nb> i thought it was semi-official?
17:21:51 <nb> it is made by releng
17:22:06 <cwickert> well, it's not official, so it cannot be a blocker
17:22:10 <nb> they want to add all kinds of stuff to the criteria, like persistance in USB and stuff like that
17:22:13 <nb> which is not essential
17:22:18 <nb> usb live persistance i mean
17:22:29 <nb> cwickert, they aren't official?
17:22:41 <cwickert> define "official"
17:22:48 <nb> <cwickert> well, it's not official, so it cannot be a blocker
17:23:12 <cwickert> they are not advertised for download but only produced as physical media
17:23:20 <sesivany> cwickert: if they're not official, they should be because we give them away on thousands of DVDs.
17:23:23 <cwickert> only GNOME, KDE and the installers can be blocker
17:23:36 <nb> cwickert, not if other stuff gets added to the criteria
17:23:41 <nb> then it becomes official
17:23:45 <cwickert> the term official is completely meaningless herer
17:23:49 <nb> or do i need a board ticket?
17:23:52 <nb> to make it a blocker?
17:23:58 <cwickert> gosh
17:24:02 <nb> my question is, who makes it a blocker?
17:24:06 <cwickert> QA
17:24:15 <cwickert> QA defines what can be a blocker or not
17:24:29 <nb> ok, then I will file a ticket with QA to request it to be added to the release criteria (thereby making it able to cause blockers)
17:24:39 <sesivany> cwickert: I'll talk to Kamil Paral and he'll be more than happy to make it a blocker :)
17:24:45 * nb thinks something that we spend thousands of dollars on should be a blocker :)
17:24:52 <cwickert> the problem is not the dual layer DVD but the spins
17:25:20 <cwickert> as soon as we include a spin that cannot be a blocker the whole thing cannot be a blocker
17:25:45 <cwickert> I think having this is a blocker is pointless. we don't want to delay a release, do we?
17:25:51 <cwickert> all we want is better QA
17:26:13 <nb> I think it can be a blocker that the whole installer multi-arch image doesn't boot
17:26:20 <nb> since all it contains are the installer images, which are "official"
17:26:25 <cwickert> no
17:26:54 <cwickert> again, official as a term means nothing, it's only about blocking an non-blocking desktops
17:26:56 <nb> anyway, this is not really a question for the FAmSCo meeting, its up to QA to decide
17:27:02 <cwickert> right
17:27:28 <cwickert> I would like to see a test case in the wiki, but I don't think it justifies delaying the release
17:28:12 <sesivany> i have 5 Fedora QA guys in my cubicle. I will discuss options with them tomorrow.
17:28:58 <cwickert> #action sesivany to discuss this multi images with QA. We should have one test case which says "boot all menu entries and make sure they boot. from there on, things are subject to the individual testing of the spins/desktops"
17:29:21 <cwickert> ok, for now all we can do is stop distributing it
17:29:34 <cwickert> so please don't ship any of them
17:29:40 <cwickert> anything more on this?
17:30:28 <nb> not from me
17:30:32 <danielbruno> i think no.. continue please
17:30:33 <sesivany> no
17:30:38 <cwickert> #topic Sponsoring Request - Joerg Simon - Traveling to nullcon Security Conference Delhi
17:30:48 <cwickert> .fasco 306
17:30:56 <nb> .famscoo 306
17:31:00 <nb> .famsco 306
17:31:02 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/306
17:31:14 <cwickert> thanks
17:31:27 <cwickert> so it's about 1000 bucks for kital
17:31:35 <cwickert> 1000 EUR this is
17:31:44 <cwickert> I think this is a lot, but we can justify it
17:31:50 <cwickert> thoughts?
17:32:13 <nb> shoudln't this be approved in the EMEA meeting?
17:32:40 <nb> although i am +1 to approving it
17:32:42 <cwickert> well, it was filed in out trac and it is time critical
17:32:52 <cwickert> and EMEA only meets every other week
17:33:01 <nb> ok
17:33:07 * nb is +1
17:33:14 <cwickert> frankly speaking I am not sure where this should go
17:33:23 <cwickert> lets just approve it :)
17:33:31 <sesivany> cwickert: do we still have enough money in the budget?
17:33:38 <cwickert> sesivany: yes
17:33:44 <cwickert> and we need to spend it
17:33:52 <cwickert> but this is a different story
17:33:56 <cwickert> a very sad one
17:34:07 <sesivany> cwickert: ok, then +1
17:34:17 * cwickert counts +3
17:34:19 <danielbruno> for me it's ok too
17:34:21 <danielbruno> +1
17:34:23 <aeperezt> cwickert, +1
17:34:31 <cwickert> that is +5
17:34:42 <cwickert> #agreed #306 is approved
17:35:50 <cwickert> ok, what's next?
17:36:10 <cwickert> I was not here last week, so I don't know what was discussed
17:36:27 <nb> the ticket about business cards
17:36:41 <nb> the general practice is that we do not reimburse for fedora business cards, correct/
17:36:42 <nb> ?
17:36:55 <nb> .famsco 303
17:36:55 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/303
17:37:11 * nb was unsure of if he should inform the requestor of that, or if famsco needed to discuss it
17:38:22 <cwickert> hmm, we need to get the message out the door that we don't need to approve each and every request
17:39:02 <nb> I think if we approved reimbursing business cards, we'd have a flood of people asking for htem
17:39:26 <cwickert> hmm
17:39:53 * nb would like Fedora to buy me Fedora business cards :)
17:40:21 <cwickert> I see nothing wrong with buying business cards for certain people
17:40:31 <cwickert> of with this ticket
17:40:34 <sesivany> I think $20 is not a big deal. It's too much overhead to pay such a small amount of money. We should help people with bigger expenses instead of paying every small expense.
17:40:47 <cwickert> but I agree there is a danger that everybody then comes and wants us to pay
17:41:05 <herlo> the problem isn't with the small expenses, it's with the process
17:41:13 <aeperezt> cwickert, +1
17:41:15 <cwickert> welcome, herlo
17:41:17 <danielbruno> and define a criteria to say yes or no
17:41:26 <herlo> cwickert: yes, sorry, long night
17:41:41 <cwickert> how about "common sense" as criteria? :)
17:42:28 <herlo> how about we let the regions solve the small expenses and write their own budget. Let's get FAmSCo out of the approving region's budgetary costs.
17:42:49 <nb> true
17:42:52 <danielbruno> hmm.. only "common sense" is  open to complaints and noise from some people
17:43:04 <cwickert> let me play the devils advocate here...
17:43:11 <herlo> tell the regions to give us a reasonable budget, we approve that based upon what RHT gives us and then they do with it what they will.
17:43:41 <cwickert> if this ticket is approved in the EMEA meeting and people see they can get credit cards for free, all the people from the meeting will want some, and then more and more people
17:43:54 <herlo> not true
17:44:02 <herlo> for one, that's not going to happen and you know that
17:44:16 <herlo> secondly, wouldn't it be something for EMEA to resolve?
17:44:16 <cwickert> I am sure this will happen in some regions
17:44:36 <danielbruno> here in latam will be the same
17:44:56 <herlo> I don't think it will. RHT won't be handing out a hundred or even 10 cards per region. I doubt it will be more than 2 or 3 per region.
17:44:57 <cwickert> danielbruno: "the same" means what?
17:45:01 <sesivany> I think it would be better to make business cards in batches and give them to people at events such as FUDCon.
17:45:23 <danielbruno> a lot of people asking for busines card
17:45:26 <herlo> sesivany: and I agree, let the region sort that out together. We should not be dealing with that.
17:45:36 <aeperezt> danielbruno, +1
17:45:37 <cwickert> herlo: huh? I know way more people who have cards
17:46:05 <cwickert> and if its just 2-3 per region, how to make that decision?
17:46:08 <herlo> let's give them the money they want as long as they show a way they plan to spend it per region.
17:46:24 <herlo> cwickert: 2-3 volunteers?
17:46:27 <herlo> I don't think so
17:47:03 <cwickert> herlo: I know ~10 people in Germany, multiply this by the number of countries on EMEA
17:47:23 <herlo> how many of them are RHT employees?
17:47:27 <cwickert> 0
17:48:33 <herlo> cwickert: interesting, I think that's a failure somehow. Even at that, not everyone can have a credit card.
17:48:56 <cwickert> huh? we are talking about business cards, not credit cards
17:49:00 <herlo> unless we're just discussing biz cards, becasue then, I'm good with it
17:49:10 <herlo> I don't really care how that gets determined.
17:49:25 <cwickert> that is 1 per region
17:49:30 <herlo> cwickert: well, I was referring to the fact that we shouldn't be approving these things and letting the regions sort out how to pay for them.
17:50:01 <cwickert> but how would that address the problem of everybody running for biz cards?
17:50:13 <herlo> I don't see the biz cards being a FAmSCo discussion, beyond maybe design. If someone in a region wants one, they should sort that out with their region.
17:50:27 * inode0 suggests Fedora not pay for personalized items and the problem is avoided
17:50:41 <aeperezt> inode0, +1
17:50:43 <danielbruno> inode0, +1
17:50:53 <sesivany> +1
17:50:55 <aeperezt> inode0, that should be the proper rule
17:50:56 <cwickert> herlo: it is a FAmSCo discussion now because somebody filed this ticket
17:51:02 <cwickert> inode0: +1
17:51:13 <nb> inode0, +1
17:51:14 <herlo> cwickert: and I'm saying we should fix the policy so they won't, but I also agree with inode0
17:51:54 <cwickert> herlo: I cannot think of a possible fix and I think that inode0 just gave a brief but powerful policy
17:52:31 <cwickert> the other thing I dislike is that he asked *after* ordering them. I am afraid this will become self-service
17:52:51 <cwickert> so I suggest to reject the ticket and stick to inode0's suggestion
17:52:56 <danielbruno> cwickert, +1
17:53:04 <cwickert> which we then should codify in the wiki somewhere
17:53:07 <aeperezt> +1
17:53:09 * nb will update the ticket
17:53:30 <herlo> cwickert: I think there's a simple fix. We make the regions give us a budget, and if they want to spend money on biz cards for folks in their regions, it's up to them to have it in their discretionary part of their budget or something.
17:54:18 <herlo> FAmSCo should not be getting these requests in the first place. I thought that's what the 'reimbursement' process and last week's discussion was about.
17:54:45 <cwickert> herlo: I was not there last week and I don't see any follow ups on the reimbursement process in the ticket
17:54:56 <cwickert> lets discuss this later btw
17:55:15 <nb> can we #agreed that we don't pay for personalized items?
17:55:15 <herlo> cwickert: that's fine. You should read last week's meeting notes as I think it' discusses it all.
17:55:20 <herlo> nb: yes
17:55:27 <cwickert> ?
17:55:43 * herlo saw six +1s above
17:56:08 <aeperezt> herlo,  I don't think so our goal as FAmSCo is to lead and establish policy and in this case this should be a policy not to pass to regions
17:56:10 <cwickert> sorry, how does "let regions decide if they want to pay for personalized biz cards" and "don't pay for personalized items" mix?
17:56:58 <herlo> cwickert: inode0 said 'inode0 suggests Fedora not pay for personalized items and the problem is avoided'. To which everyone +1'd
17:57:29 <cwickert> I understood you "region may handle this" as a -1 to inode0's suggestion
17:57:34 <herlo> I note that biz cards are personalized
17:57:49 <herlo> cwickert: I then stated
17:57:50 <herlo> 11:51 < herlo> cwickert: and I'm saying we should fix the policy so they won't, but I also agree with inode0
17:58:05 <herlo> therefore, my +1
17:58:12 <cwickert> "but also" is what? +1 or -1?
17:58:45 <herlo> how would agreeing with inode0 be a -1?
17:58:48 <herlo> it's a +1
17:58:57 <cwickert> to me "let regions decide" and "don't do it" is mutually exclusive
17:59:31 <sesivany> guys, we're running in cycles, inode0 proposed a policy, most agreed, case closed.
17:59:44 <herlo> cwickert: but I'm not dictating policy, just a personal opinion. inode0 was recommending a policy, with which I agree.
18:00:03 <herlo> sesivany: yes, I concur. thanks
18:00:35 <cwickert> so even if we all agree to inode0's suggestion, I don't understand herlo
18:01:09 <herlo> cwickert: can we discuss it offline? I don't think it's important to this discussion.
18:01:13 <cwickert> ok
18:01:59 <cwickert> #agreed #303 is rejected. We don't pay for personalized items. In addition, requests should be filed before spending money
18:02:26 <herlo> +1
18:02:30 <cwickert> great
18:02:48 <cwickert> #action nb to update #303
18:03:09 <cwickert> #action cwickert to add the "no personalized items" rule to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reimbursements
18:03:23 <cwickert> should we do more than this? like, a proper policy?
18:03:47 <cwickert> while I do see some space for exceptions I am afraid we create too much red tape
18:03:52 <herlo> cwickert: I think we should.
18:03:58 <herlo> cwickert: agreed
18:04:36 <cwickert> how about: "Fedora does not pay for personalized items. Regions can agree on exceptions."
18:05:08 <cwickert> I mean, people might want to have ambassadors shirts with their names on them for example
18:05:32 <cwickert> haha, we don't pay for polos anyway, problem solved :)
18:05:50 <herlo> cwickert: I think the problem stems from the fact that we're getting requests like these each week. If the Reimbursements page suggested that people go to their region to ask for approval first/reimbursement second. We could get away from this...
18:06:15 <cwickert> herlo: agreed, but on why policy level, do we need an exception for the regions or not?
18:06:25 <cwickert> s/why/a
18:06:48 <aeperezt> I think not
18:07:54 <sesivany> I don't really care if a region decides to pay it from its budget. But a general rule of thumb is not and those requests should not go to FAmSCo at all.
18:08:10 <cwickert> aeperezt: please don't ask "no" when I am asking an OR question, it is hard to understand what part of the question you mean ;)
18:08:21 <herlo> cwickert: hmm, I'd like to stem the tide of requests like these with a clearer policy. We shouldn't be making a policy with such tight restrictions that we cannot make exceptions.
18:08:23 <cwickert> s/ask/say
18:08:45 <cwickert> herlo: +1
18:08:55 <sesivany> so I'm for exceptions.
18:09:33 <sesivany> "Fedora does not pay for personalized items. Regions can agree on exceptions." sounds good to me.
18:09:40 <cwickert> ok, +1
18:09:53 <danielbruno> +1
18:09:53 <herlo> same here
18:10:24 <nb> +1
18:10:25 <aeperezt> -1
18:11:34 <sesivany> +1 if it wasnt obvious.
18:12:01 <cwickert> #topic Reimbursements for personalized items
18:12:25 <cwickert> #agreed Fedora generally does not pay for personalized items. Regions can agree on exceptions.
18:12:43 <cwickert> ok, we should now look into reimbursements again
18:12:52 <cwickert> because we want to get rid of these tickets
18:13:00 <cwickert> who can update me on last week?
18:13:12 <cwickert> I don't see meeting logs on the mailing list or in the wiki
18:14:07 <cwickert> #info when you hold a meeting, don't forget to send out the meeting logs to ambassadors@lists.fedoraproject.org and meetingminutes@lists.fedoraproject.org and add them to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FAmSCo_meetings
18:15:11 <herlo> aeperezt: was it you that was goign to send out last week's meeting minutes?
18:15:13 <cwickert> did the meeting take place last week?
18:15:14 * herlo can't find them
18:15:35 <herlo> cwickert: I was there and it took place :)
18:15:44 <aeperezt> herlo, do not recall that
18:15:50 <aeperezt> let me check
18:15:51 <herlo> hmm, k
18:15:55 <cwickert> found it
18:15:56 <cwickert> http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2012-07-23/fedora-meeting-2.2012-07-23-17.01.html
18:16:42 <herlo> maybe it was bckurera, no matter.
18:16:54 <cwickert> #info when you hold a FAMSCo meeting. make sure to set the name correctly with "#meetingname famsco"
18:17:08 <cwickert> I think I had seen something from him, but anyway...
18:17:24 <cwickert> #topic Sponsoring event attendees
18:17:33 <cwickert> .famsco 265
18:17:33 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/265
18:17:48 * cwickert reads the log
18:17:49 <herlo> oh, that was my failure. I don't run meetings much and danielbruno wasn't there to run as vice chair
18:18:21 <danielbruno> i was travelling
18:18:54 <herlo> danielbruno: no worries, just noting that we didn't have a backup for the meeting runner :)
18:19:05 <danielbruno> :)
18:19:48 <cwickert> ok, I have just had a quickly look at the logs
18:20:16 <cwickert> it seems you only talked about the topic of distribution between the regions
18:20:26 <cwickert> did you actually discuss the policy part?
18:21:19 <cwickert> herlo: IIRC you were to go through http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting-2/2012-07-16/famsco.2012-07-16-17.00.log.html and word that nicely as a policy?
18:21:49 <cwickert> herlo: you are a cheater :)
18:22:00 <cwickert> please don't send mails while we are already in the meeting
18:22:38 <herlo> cwickert: I didn't. I just updated the ticket
18:22:43 <herlo> :)
18:23:08 <cwickert> well, the updated ticket generates a mail
18:23:12 <herlo> cwickert: we actually discussed the policy quite heavily in there.
18:23:21 <cwickert> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Herlo/Reimbursement_Process
18:23:24 <herlo> cwickert: I understand that. It wasn't my intention to cause pain.
18:24:19 <cwickert> herlo: you draft looks pretty good to me, way better than buddhikes
18:24:38 <rbergeron> ?
18:24:39 <cwickert> more straight forward and deals with the important stuff and not the committee
18:24:41 <cwickert> rbergeron: ?
18:24:48 <cwickert> go ahead
18:24:56 <herlo> cwickert: as I stated in the ticket, I do think it would cause problems at its current state. I would prefer to rework it into a component of a larger 'budgetary policy' that we define.
18:25:09 <rbergeron> re: the expenses for FUDCon - we do sometimes reimburse people for their travel tickets, particularly in countries where air travel can only be purchased by the person doing the travelling
18:25:39 <rbergeron> that's the only clarification i owuld make - just so people don't totally freak out about if they can buy their own airfare and be reimbursed (assuming it was approved at some point, the less than 500 dollar thing doesn't apply)
18:25:55 <rbergeron> fudcons/fads
18:26:14 <rbergeron> eof :)
18:26:15 <cwickert> rbergeron: this was part of another ticket
18:26:19 <herlo> rbergeron: with the new group, the budgets are essentially the same, right?
18:26:34 <herlo> so this is not the premier events budget we're discussing atm
18:26:54 <cwickert> sorry, I screwed it up, I confused the tickets
18:26:59 <cwickert> my bad
18:27:05 <rbergeron> i was just reading herlo's link
18:27:18 <rbergeron> sorry if i'm fouling you guys up :)
18:27:31 <herlo> rbergeron: no problem. I've fouled us up plenty :)
18:27:41 <rbergeron> herlo: re: do you mean budget operations or the actual amounts in teh budgets themselves?
18:27:42 <herlo> but what you say is still useful
18:27:58 <herlo> rbergeron: both
18:28:00 <herlo> I guess
18:28:00 <rbergeron> herlo: thank god, glad to hear that
18:28:17 <cwickert> rbergeron: very useful, I realized I had the wrong ticket and topic :)
18:28:20 <cwickert> #topic Budget review guidelines
18:28:26 <cwickert> .famsco 281
18:28:26 <zodbot> https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/ticket/281
18:29:03 <rbergeron> herlo: operations are essentially the same, budget is not, see mail i sent lsat week to ambassador list
18:29:12 * herlo isn't sure how operations differ from the amounts. He was hoping they were separated equivalently so as to make it easy for FAmSCo to define a process for the non premier events
18:29:27 <cwickert> rbergeron: to address your question: we have another ticket open for sponsoring event attendees that deals with the premier Fedora events
18:29:29 <herlo> rbergeron: oh, you mean the actual amount that was given. I understand that.
18:29:46 <rbergeron> herlo: ah, okay
18:29:56 <cwickert> and thus this does not show up in herlo's draft and is explicitly excluded
18:30:23 * rbergeron will shut up now and let you guys get back to progress
18:30:42 <cwickert> I think we need some fine tuning because otherwise we have two wiki pages with contrary information
18:31:00 <herlo> but, I do think the reimbursement policy of old is not as broken as it appeared. In fact, I like it better than what I have with only one real change. FAmSCo -> Regions
18:31:14 <cwickert> +1
18:31:27 <cwickert> so should we just approve herlo's draft?
18:31:48 <herlo> cwickert: and, I think a larger budgetary policy from FAmSCo to the regions be created and approved over the next few weeks
18:31:51 <cwickert> we could add a "for travel sponsorship to Fedora events see <link>" thingy
18:32:04 <herlo> cwickert: no way, don't approve my changes! yuck!
18:32:08 <cwickert> ?!
18:32:13 <cwickert> why not?
18:32:33 <herlo> cwickert: for reasons I stated above.
18:33:31 <cwickert> I cannot follow
18:33:50 <cwickert> I mean, you want to wait for the regional division, right?
18:34:02 <herlo> if we remove the USD amounts, I can go wit this for now
18:34:38 <herlo> with my reimbursement process page
18:34:49 <cwickert> the USD amounts were the whole point of the exercise, otherwise we'll continue with discussing 20 bucks
18:35:48 * cwickert is lost. probably because he did not attend the meeting last week
18:36:36 <herlo> is this a temporary piece to get us to a larger budgetary requirement? I really think replacing 'FAmSCo' with 'Regional ticket system' from the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_credit_card_process page, it would make the process simple enough and not change things
18:37:01 * rbergeron has something to add re: joerg's ticket at the end
18:37:17 <cwickert> rbergeron: later
18:37:30 <cwickert> sorry, I am completely lost
18:37:41 <cwickert> a larger budget requirement?
18:37:43 <herlo> cwickert: lost with what?
18:37:52 <cwickert> I don't understand what you mean
18:38:09 <herlo> okay, let's backup, but I've been discussing this the entire meeting here and last week
18:38:20 <herlo> cwickert: what is the point of this Reimbursement Process page?
18:38:22 <cwickert> let me try asking you
18:38:26 <herlo> okay
18:38:56 <cwickert> you don't want this policy approved because of the limits and you don't want the limits because we don't yet know the regional distribution of the budget, right?
18:39:10 <herlo> sort of, but not really
18:39:28 <herlo> I don't want it to become a policy
18:39:31 <cwickert> then rephrase it better
18:39:39 <cwickert> wtf?
18:39:53 <herlo> we *have* a process
18:40:03 <herlo> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reimbursements
18:40:12 <cwickert> that process described *payments*, not *decisions*
18:40:22 <herlo> which in and of itself does everything we need. With one major exception
18:40:27 <herlo> cwickert: agreed. hold on
18:40:56 <herlo> from that page, you link to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Community_credit_card_process, which is probably a misnamed page, but covers what we're trying to do
18:41:06 <herlo> and its the page I based my draft on
18:41:27 <herlo> under 'Approval of Expenses'
18:41:28 <herlo> I se
18:41:30 <herlo> see
18:41:33 <herlo> 1. Initial request goes to FAMSCO and is routed to the appropriate card holder.
18:41:50 <cwickert> this is what we are trying to avoid
18:41:55 <herlo> in essence it should be s/FAMSCO/Regional Community/
18:41:58 <herlo> and we're done
18:42:02 <herlo> cwickert: exactly
18:42:41 <herlo> the amounts can be recommendations to the regions
18:42:44 * cwickert starts getting herlos thought
18:42:51 <herlo> but I don't think it's necessary
18:42:56 <herlo> then
18:43:25 <herlo> we can start working on a larger budgetary process to include this and to require regions have a process in place to manage the reimbursement requests.
18:43:40 <cwickert> ok, I see your point
18:43:54 <herlo> :P
18:43:56 <herlo> yay!
18:44:06 <cwickert> hold on, not so fast :)
18:44:17 <herlo> no, I'm just happy you got my point...
18:44:19 <cwickert> I still think we need the limit
18:44:23 <cwickert> limits
18:45:04 <cwickert> basically the list that says "request goes here or goes there" matches the limits very well
18:45:06 <herlo> cwickert: I think the problem with the limits as stated is that they would be requirements.
18:45:39 <herlo> and from discussions at least in my region, I've noticed that there are amounts we regularly go over that would now require famsco approval
18:45:52 <cwickert> what we would then do is rename the wiki page and make the list something like "if your request is from x to why, then request budget here"
18:46:02 <cwickert> such as?
18:46:23 <herlo> t-shirts, media, stickers, etc.
18:46:28 <cwickert> nah
18:46:32 <cwickert> only media
18:46:39 <herlo> no, we buy in bulk
18:47:08 <cwickert> the only reason why the stickers were over the limit was because other regions wanted to have some. too
18:47:10 <herlo> we don't buy things one at a time. We buy different big things each quarter to be within the budget
18:47:24 <cwickert> and at this point it makes sense to have FAmSCo as a global body in there
18:47:24 <herlo> then we ship them through the famnarequests process
18:47:51 <herlo> cwickert: I see it as more red tape, not less. My goal here is to make it easier to get things to contributors, not harder.
18:48:25 <inode0> FAmNA's routine t-shirt orders which are only for NA exceed the limit set on that page
18:48:42 <cwickert> I still think we need the limits. to get rid of the small crap and as a security measure for the big ones. lets face it, our budget is so fucked up and will take some years to recover
18:48:59 <cwickert> and until then we cannot really think about how to distribute the budget regionally
18:49:03 <rbergeron> routine == we haven't done it for more than a year, iirc?
18:49:08 <inode0> yes
18:49:10 <herlo> cwickert: if the requests go to the regional groups, it won't be stuff we deal with. They will sort it out and find a process that works for them.
18:49:33 <herlo> rbergeron: we've done it for at least 3 years iirc
18:49:44 <rbergeron> but once a year
18:49:47 <herlo> I started the eventbox and famnarequests stuff back in like 09
18:49:50 <sesivany> limits would be a nice step towards more independent regions, but I think we need it for now.
18:49:53 <herlo> rbergeron: we buy many things
18:50:06 <herlo> t-shirts are just one example.
18:50:22 <cwickert> herlo: with the gian budget fuckup, we don't really know how much money we can give to the regions. our budget was cut dramatically and we need to be careful
18:50:31 <herlo> ahh, there you go! :)
18:50:32 <cwickert> NA cannot really know how much is left for them
18:50:38 <sesivany> if all regions prove to work well within limits, then we can change the policy and leave them just with budget limits.
18:51:01 <cwickert> and then I would like FAMSCo as a security net in there before somebody buys shirts for USD 3k
18:51:11 <herlo> cwickert: I don't want to have RHT dictate the budget to the regions. Instead, the regions should make their own quarterly budget and submit it to FAMSCo for approval. We then discuss with RHT/FPL and such to get approval for what they want to spend.
18:51:34 <herlo> if it's short, we cut it as necessary. This is the stuff we should be doing
18:52:07 <cwickert> herlo: I still would like to be able to say "you need to cut your pink ponies" instead of "cut what you think fits best"
18:52:21 <herlo> cwickert: agreed
18:52:42 <cwickert> I want FAmSCO to have a say on big expenses instead of approving them in bulk every 3 months
18:52:44 <herlo> and we can discuss that in a larger process. I would be okay with these being temporary guidelines for now.
18:52:58 <herlo> hmm
18:53:06 <cwickert> ok, I think we need to cut this into smaller chunks
18:53:15 <cwickert> we now have 3 processes about money
18:53:38 <cwickert> sponsorship for event attendees, review guidelines, payment process
18:54:00 <cwickert> let us deal with one at a time instead of mixing this up, otherwise we'll never finish
18:54:02 <herlo> cwickert: really? So approving a budget that you only have to read and say 'this works', 'this doesn't work' and send it back and forth a few times to the regions is going to be more difficult than forcing a region to get approval for media and travel and other things each time they want it?
18:54:16 <nb> we have travel over 2k?
18:54:28 <herlo> nb: many in emea and apac do, aiui
18:54:33 <rbergeron> nb: yeah, $wholeevent
18:54:37 <cwickert> herlo: not really
18:54:46 <cwickert> I mean, not for an indivudual
18:55:01 <cwickert> herlo: I do agree however, that the whole policy is probably better fitted in the payment process wiki page
18:55:08 <cwickert> but I need to think about this first
18:55:18 <cwickert> somethign, I am not capable to do right now
18:55:18 <herlo> k, and think that's a good place to mull it over for a week then
18:55:29 <cwickert> just my thought
18:55:41 <cwickert> I agree it's somehow all connected
18:55:44 * herlo is willing to let everyone think on it again. It's not an easy issue to resolve.
18:56:02 <cwickert> I will think of a way to break this down into smaller pieces so we can actually deal with them
18:56:06 <herlo> s/willing to let/desiring for/
18:56:22 <cwickert> but I like herlo's idea in general, even if we disagree on some details
18:56:33 <cwickert> anyway, I think we should stop now
18:56:41 * cwickert needs food and a beer
18:56:50 <nb> +1
18:56:53 <nb> +1 food is good
18:56:57 * rbergeron has one or two things to pipe up about if there is open floor
18:57:03 <herlo> +1 for beer and food
18:57:04 <sesivany> so does /me :-)
18:57:08 <nb> #info we like food and beer
18:57:10 <cwickert> ok, then
18:57:11 <herlo> rbergeron: shortly
18:57:12 <danielbruno> +1 for food and beer :)
18:57:14 <herlo> :P
18:57:17 <cwickert> #topic Open Floor
18:57:25 <cwickert> haha, suddenly everybody is alive again
18:57:27 * herlo new the open floor would happen!
18:57:37 <rbergeron> food and beer bring people out :)
18:57:38 <herlo> s/new/knew/
18:57:40 <cwickert> rbergeron: shoot
18:57:44 <aeperezt> +1
18:58:40 <rbergeron> okay, first: on joerg's ticket - I'm willing to take this out of discretionary budget so it doesn't affect regional budget stuff. (and in doing so, I also got an extra 1k added to discretionary budget, and that money will fall back into enhancing budget size next year.)
18:59:18 <rbergeron> but if you guys would prefer to see it out of regional, i can do that. but i figure discretionary is probably better.
18:59:35 <rbergeron> <comments welcome on that>
18:59:44 <cwickert> I think discretionary is better, because it is not really regional
18:59:49 * herlo votes for discretionary
19:00:14 <cwickert> I mean, an EMEA guy goes to an APAC event with audience from all over the world. how is that regional?
19:00:34 <rbergeron> I realize the budget stuff is utterly screwed, and i'm trying to resolve. getting an idea of missing things on the budget page helps me, and i've only gotten a few comments (though i haven't looked this weekend).
19:00:39 <herlo> it's not
19:00:48 <nb> +1 discretionary
19:00:57 <aeperezt> +1 discretionary
19:01:16 <herlo> rbergeron: I have lots of comments to make. They are just not well formed yet. :)
19:01:53 <cwickert> #info if you need budget for your favorite event, please add a rough estimation to https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Accounting/DraftFY13
19:02:04 <rbergeron> second: I'd like to ask you guys to merely think about, probably with your respective regions, if there are any events where we might want to do bigger or more awesome things this year (i am immediately thinking of fosdem and perhaps scale) -
19:02:32 <rbergeron> and if it is a reasonable plan with big shiny outreach or marketing or whatever, that's something i can take back and ... well, suck up for.
19:02:55 <rbergeron> and that we can use to grow next year's budget with, and get additional out of mysterious (even to me) pockets of money in the CTO office.
19:03:22 <rbergeron> it's not the way i like to do things, but I'm throwing the idea out there, and the person that i'm working with is encouraging this type of thing.
19:04:21 <rbergeron> so whether that's "bigger booth" or "SHIRTS" or whatever, high impact things, giveaways at a booth, whatever. I'd like to procure as much money as possible now so that we can have more budget next year.
19:04:39 * cwickert likes spending money :)
19:04:53 <cwickert> but we should not spend it blindly
19:05:11 <herlo> rbergeron: I will take the money blindly! :)
19:05:15 * herlo kids
19:05:46 <rbergeron> no, but what i'm saying is: having a reasonably concrete plan about "why we should make extra impact at this event" - outreach to new developers, new packagers, new people, whatever -
19:05:58 * nb would like to plan something at scale, but needs to think of ideas
19:06:10 <rbergeron> helps that extra money appear for that event this year, and then rolled into the overall budget for next year.
19:06:27 <rbergeron> don't ask me what plan should actually look like at this moment, i'm just piping up and saying, "THINK ABOUT IT"
19:06:41 <cwickert> sounds good
19:06:42 <rbergeron> and i don't mean to exclude latam or apac events, there's just simply not as much on the wiki about those that i have seen.
19:06:49 <sesivany> rbergeron: what's the deadline?
19:06:51 <cwickert> I'm sure we can up with something
19:06:53 <aeperezt> rbergeron, great
19:07:17 <rbergeron> and i can't make promises either, but the offer, vague as it is from above me at daddy shadowmanland, is there.
19:07:26 <aeperezt> sesivany, thanks that was my next question
19:08:41 <herlo> nb: we can talk offline
19:08:42 <rbergeron> sesivany: no huge deadline. i realize some events don't have even fees/etc listed right now - I would say maybe within the next few weeks for things we know about for sure, and also if special opportunities arise - those i can go with case by case.
19:08:50 <nb> herlo, ok
19:08:53 <herlo> nb: about scale
19:09:30 <sesivany> rbergeron: ok, I'll be thinking about it.
19:10:06 <rbergeron> we don't have to RUSH, but I odn't want to be 3 weeks out from fosdem either saying, "oh, we decided it might be nice to do something"
19:11:21 <rbergeron> sorry it's vague, but a lot of things are vague, and I'm going through them as beest as i can with a group that is still familiarizing with processes.
19:11:57 <rbergeron> as an aside: we now have it figured out (and have julita reimbursed for the peru party) for doing cash reimbursements/wire transfers without any red hat employee having to pay out of pocket (for people who have paypal), which has been a nice thing OSAS has gotten fixed for us.
19:12:55 <rbergeron> that's all i have. i'll keep you guys up to date as i know more, but any encouragement to add/comment on the draftFY13 page will help me along. :)
19:13:44 <rbergeron> EOF
19:14:14 <herlo> rbergeron: thank you
19:14:56 * cwickert too
19:15:02 <cwickert> anything else?
19:15:15 * herlo is done
19:15:25 * cwickert is totally done :)
19:15:30 <cwickert> #endmeeting