16:00:36 <sgallagh> #startmeeting Server SIG Weekly Meeting (2016-01-19)
16:00:36 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jan 19 16:00:36 2016 UTC.  The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:36 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:00:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'server_sig_weekly_meeting_(2016-01-19)'
16:00:36 <sgallagh> #meetingname ServerSIG
16:00:36 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'serversig'
16:00:36 <sgallagh> #chair sgallagh mizmo nirik stefw adamw simo danofsatx mhayden jds2001
16:00:36 <sgallagh> #topic roll call
16:00:36 <zodbot> Current chairs: adamw danofsatx jds2001 mhayden mizmo nirik sgallagh simo stefw
16:00:43 <mhayden> .hello mhayden
16:00:44 <zodbot> mhayden: mhayden 'Major Hayden' <major@mhtx.net>
16:00:49 <danofsatx> .hello dmossor
16:00:50 <zodbot> danofsatx: dmossor 'Dan Mossor' <danofsatx@gmail.com>
16:00:56 <adamw> .hello adamwill
16:00:58 <zodbot> adamw: adamwill 'Adam Williamson' <awilliam@redhat.com>
16:01:22 <sgallagh> .hello sgallagh
16:01:23 <zodbot> sgallagh: sgallagh 'Stephen Gallagher' <sgallagh@redhat.com>
16:01:28 <jds2001> .hello jstanley
16:01:30 <zodbot> jds2001: jstanley 'Jon Stanley' <jonstanley@gmail.com>
16:01:51 <simo> .hello simo
16:01:52 <zodbot> simo: simo 'Simo Sorce' <ssorce@redhat.com>
16:02:15 <nirik> .hello kevin
16:02:16 <zodbot> nirik: kevin 'Kevin Fenzi' <kevin@scrye.com>
16:02:45 * jds2001 read the (brief) log from last week
16:02:47 <jsmith> .hello jsmith
16:02:48 <zodbot> jsmith: jsmith 'Jared Smith' <jsmith.fedora@gmail.com>
16:02:55 * jds2001 is a sad panda :(
16:03:07 <sgallagh> This is our best attendance in weeks. I kind of wish we had more topics on the agenda :-/
16:03:22 <sgallagh> jds2001: Well, I'll talk about that a bit once we get started
16:03:22 <simo> :)
16:03:23 <adamw> i can leave, if that would be better
16:03:34 * simo kicks adamw
16:03:36 <adamw> :P
16:03:48 <simo> still here ? >:-)
16:03:57 <sgallagh> #topic Agenda
16:04:20 <sgallagh> jflory7 wanted to re-raise the topic of the minimal image.
16:04:35 <sgallagh> #info Agenda Item: Minimal Image
16:04:58 <sgallagh> I had another topic that I was hoping to discuss this week, but unfortunately the stakeholders aren't available until next week
16:05:18 <sgallagh> That was the topic of ABI stability checking
16:05:30 <sgallagh> So that will happen next week
16:05:43 <sgallagh> #info Agenda Item: Server Role Future
16:06:39 <andreasn> .hello andreasn
16:06:40 <zodbot> andreasn: andreasn 'Andreas Nilsson' <anilsson@redhat.com>
16:06:41 <danofsatx> sorry, embroiled in a default browser debate in kde meeting
16:06:45 <sgallagh> One other topic that I keep getting asked about is whether Server plans to produce an ostree-based image. I suppose we may want to discuss that as well
16:07:07 <sgallagh> danofsatx: Just default to Internet Explorer.
16:07:26 <danofsatx> heh...that might actually go over well at this point
16:08:28 <sgallagh> OK, anyone else want to raise agenda topics?
16:08:42 <sgallagh> adamw: Anything from QA?
16:08:54 <adamw> don't think so, were you expecting something?
16:08:58 <mhayden> dustymabe inquired about a server/cloud FAD
16:09:41 <sgallagh> mhayden: I missed that.
16:10:24 <sgallagh> adamw: Nothing expected, just QA has been quiet lately and that makes me nervous :-)
16:11:23 <sgallagh> OK, let's get started then.
16:11:30 <sgallagh> #topic Minimal Image
16:11:34 <jds2001> no news != good news sometimes :D
16:11:36 <sgallagh> jflory7: Are you around?
16:11:54 <adamw> sgallagh: honestly, i'm just kinda digging my way out of my todo pile.
16:12:05 <sgallagh> I was wondering what that smell was.
16:12:18 <sgallagh> Oh, *to* do. Sorry.
16:12:49 <sgallagh> The last time we discussed this, we agreed that the Server product was explicitly not an ultra-minimal image.
16:13:09 <sgallagh> But we also agreed that it was installing too much at that time.
16:13:16 <adamw> sgallagh: tomato, tomahto
16:13:45 <sgallagh> I made a number of changes to comps and spin-kickstarts and reduced our DVD ISO image to 1.7GB down from 2.1GB
16:14:06 * jds2001 sees that as good progress.
16:14:15 <sgallagh> A significant chunk of what's left is still due to python2 pulled in by IPA/Samba, but that's looking like it's on track to get dropped fairly soon
16:14:39 <sgallagh> simo: Care to chime in on that score?
16:15:02 <adamw> ++sgallagh, nice job
16:15:29 <jsmith> sgallagh++
16:16:26 <simo> sgallagh: for some definition of soon :-)
16:16:32 <simo> but yeah progress is being made
16:17:31 <sgallagh> simo: Is there an expected ETA?
16:18:25 <danofsatx> it's like the CentOS ETAs - it's done when it gets done.
16:19:07 <sgallagh> Well, I'm assuming that our downstream probably has certain expectations as well
16:19:50 <simo> sgallagh: there are too many actors involved to be able to make accurate ETAs
16:19:56 <sgallagh> Fair enough
16:20:03 <simo> there are upstreams like python-ldap that are a real problem to work with
16:20:53 <sgallagh> Understood.
16:21:05 <sgallagh> simo: Fair to say that we should not expect this to happen for F24?
16:22:59 <sgallagh> The other side of this is of course that we want to keep reducing the minimum install size as best as *reasonable*
16:23:22 <sgallagh> For example, I'm still trying to track down exceptionally-large dependency chains
16:23:55 <sgallagh> Any time we can break out a Requires (particularly in languages like Python), it usually gets rid of a lot of packages.
16:24:28 <sgallagh> If anyone out there would like to help write some more modeling tools to figure out how best to discover the worst offenders, please see me after class :)
16:25:06 <sgallagh> #info Work continues on reducing unnecessary dependencies in Fedora Server
16:25:14 * danofsatx would love to if he only knew how
16:25:20 * jds2001 too
16:25:25 <sgallagh> danofsatx: How's your python?
16:25:29 <danofsatx> not knowing how to code sux
16:25:47 <sgallagh> jds2001: same question
16:25:49 <jds2001> danofsatx: python is easy to pick up :)
16:25:53 <jds2001> sgallagh: reasonable
16:25:56 <mhayden> i've python'd from time to time :)
16:26:16 <sgallagh> So I've got a few scripts I used to generate the initial data dumps I sent to the list a few months ago
16:26:34 <sgallagh> They're reasonably-approachable examples of how to use python-rpm
16:26:36 <danofsatx> my pyhton skilz are about as hackish as adamw's were when he started on his pet QA project
16:27:05 <adamw> danofsatx: eh, spend a day or two at the university of stackoverflow, you'll be fine.
16:27:12 <danofsatx> in other words: I know how to effectivly use stackoverflow
16:27:18 <sgallagh> It might be a good time to actually start a python-rpm-analysis project
16:28:20 <sgallagh> OK, let's talk more about that in the coming days.
16:28:31 <sgallagh> #topic Server Role Future
16:29:33 <sgallagh> So, as mentioned last week, Red Hat is at least temporarily deprioritizing their investment into rolekit.
16:29:40 * nirik notes https://pagure.io/insim might be of use in the last topic
16:29:51 <danofsatx> it is?
16:29:56 * danofsatx digs up logs
16:30:12 <jds2001> danofsatx: thats pretty much what the logs say, save your time :)
16:30:21 <sgallagh> We've been given permission to finish the major refactor that are underway.
16:30:35 <nirik> oh. I wasn't here last week, missed that. ;(
16:30:35 <sgallagh> The good news is that this refactor should result in *extremely* easy role-creation
16:30:51 <danofsatx> any reason? Or just a command from on high?
16:31:20 <jds2001> sgallagh: i guess the quesiton is what is the new direction for the requirement?
16:31:25 <sgallagh> danofsatx: Mostly a matter of prioritization; the three people who were working on it are needed more urgently on other things for a while
16:31:37 <danofsatx> roger that.
16:32:38 <sgallagh> Aside, back on the minimal image topic: a fresh install of Rawhide's nightly with the Fedora Server env group takes 1.2GB of space.
16:33:02 <sgallagh> I'm not giving up on rolekit; I still think it's a project with a future.
16:33:19 <sgallagh> I'm going to be expending at least some of my own personal time maintaining it and developing new roles.
16:33:59 <sgallagh> But if the Server SIG wants this to remain a key piece of our value-add, I'm going to need some volunteer help
16:34:39 * danofsatx curses his Appalachain blue-collar upbringing
16:34:44 <sgallagh> Once this refactor is done (and we hope to have some example documentation to show in two or three weeks), creation of new roles should be quite simple.
16:34:52 <nirik> I'm happy to help (time permitting)
16:36:05 <sgallagh> nirik: Thanks, that would be good. We've got a backlog of potential role ideas on the github issues page.
16:36:16 <sgallagh> I'll let people know as soon as the refactor lands
16:36:23 <nirik> yeah. Sounds good.
16:36:42 <nirik> do we need to time those/make changes around them? or they can just land anytime they are done?
16:37:02 <sgallagh> nirik: Sorry, antecedent for those/they?
16:37:48 <nirik> roles. Say we make a new role... should that be a change for the next fedora release? or just go in as it's done...
16:38:52 <sgallagh> nirik: I'd say judge each one as they come.
16:39:08 <nirik> ok. Or they could go in as done, but only advertise them next cycle.
16:39:10 <sgallagh> We may want to break things into a supported and experimental subpackage, for example
16:39:15 <nirik> (so we have prevew time)
16:39:18 <nirik> yeah
16:40:14 <sgallagh> #info Volunteer help requested in creation of new roles once the big refactor lands
16:41:27 <sgallagh> It seems like there's at least enough *interest* that we may not need to seriously reprioritize Server efforts just yet.
16:41:40 <sgallagh> Let's see where we stand around F24 Alpha
16:41:48 * nirik nods
16:41:59 <sgallagh> OK, one last topic on the agenda.
16:42:10 <sgallagh> #topic Fedora Server OSTree Image
16:42:43 <jds2001> intersting idea, but im slightly  confuzzled
16:42:50 <sgallagh> I've been asked several times by various sources if it might make sense to do a Fedora Server deliverable using ostree for updates rather than (or alternative to) dnf updates
16:42:56 * jds2001 thought the server product was more aimed towards pets :)
16:43:18 <jds2001> how would that look?
16:43:21 <sgallagh> jds2001: It is, but that doesn't mean we couldn't essentially just replace the update mechanism
16:43:53 <jds2001> roles become containers?
16:43:56 <simo> sgallagh: what filesystem does ostree support ?
16:44:09 <sgallagh> simo: Last I checked, it was FS-independent
16:44:22 <simo> how does it swap them ?
16:44:29 <sgallagh> jds2001: So there is some work in rpm-ostree to allow an ostree base with RPM addons
16:44:30 * nirik doesn't think that would be all that useful really, given that you couldn't install more packages on it...
16:44:42 <simo> I mean it seem like you need a quite different OS structure for that to work reasonably
16:44:43 <nirik> if that work was done it would be more interesting. ;)
16:44:48 <jds2001> sgallagh: how do you update those addons? dnf?
16:44:57 <jds2001> or is that some sort of layered ostree thingy?
16:45:03 <sgallagh> nirik: The other option of course is producing a Server Role like "OSTree Factory"
16:45:06 <andreasn> it's pretty neat that you can roll back changes from an update
16:45:18 <sgallagh> Where end-users could produce their own atomically updated installs
16:45:38 <nirik> that would be much more interesting yeah...
16:45:49 <simo> sgallagh: neat but sounds out of server purview
16:45:57 <nirik> then you install, setup the ostree factory for your needs/packages and generate new ones as you like.
16:46:03 <jds2001> sgallagh: that is an awesome idea
16:46:09 <nirik> (but sadly that still requires rebooting for each update right?)
16:46:28 <simo> nirik: I do not see how you avoid it in the os-tree world
16:46:49 <jds2001> nirik: thats the entire point
16:46:50 <sgallagh> nirik: I think one could kexec(), but that's virtually identical
16:46:52 <nirik> yeah, me either
16:48:17 <sgallagh> So, such a Factory would require a pretty considerable investment in effort. I suspect it would basically amount to repackaging a large portion of the rel-eng infrastructure.
16:48:39 <adamw> so, uh, good luck with that.
16:48:40 * nirik could see using that for koji builders. Then you could bisect when something broke on them and find the trouble package
16:48:50 <jds2001> sgallagh: i've built ostree images before, it's not easy but not impossible either
16:48:52 <nirik> yeah, it seems like it would be a lot of work indeed.
16:49:24 <sgallagh> jds2001: Right, we would really need the right tools
16:49:54 <sgallagh> Much of this work is probably already done by the Project Atomic folks
16:50:02 <sgallagh> They just only expect to produce a single tree
16:50:08 <sgallagh> (And revisions of that tree)
16:51:08 <dgilmore> sgallagh: I could see a ostree storage server
16:51:14 <dgilmore> or ostree dns server
16:51:34 <dgilmore> things that would be consumed as an applaince
16:51:41 <dgilmore> appliance
16:51:50 <sgallagh> dgilmore: I guess I'm thinking about ways that a user would produce their own appliance images with these tools
16:52:02 <sgallagh> Or possibly a CSB workstation image, etc.
16:52:35 <dgilmore> sgallagh: using ostree to make 1000 webservers exactly the same should be doable
16:52:50 <dgilmore> sgallagh: or bank teller workstation etc
16:53:07 <dgilmore> what it needs is documentation on how you do it
16:53:16 <sgallagh> Yes, absolutely
16:53:57 <sgallagh> dgilmore: I was thinking something on the order of: write a spin-kickstart, pump it through a service, get an ostree as output
16:54:25 <dgilmore> sgallagh: ostree, and installer
16:54:31 <dgilmore> so you can pxe install it
16:54:35 <sgallagh> ack
16:54:39 <dgilmore> or dvd install it
16:54:59 <dgilmore> or make cloud images easily
16:55:21 <sgallagh> jds2001, mhayden, danofsatx: I'm curious what your thoughts are on this, as our resident Real World users.
16:56:16 <danofsatx> personally. I don't like it. but that's only because I'm unfamiliar with it and I don't like change that I don't at least partially understand
16:56:21 <sgallagh> (And whether this is something that seems like it would be useful or if you'd be more likely to use Atomic)
16:56:37 <danofsatx> so, don't take my opinion - it doesn't count ;)
16:57:21 <jds2001> sgallagh: i think being able to do the entire thing on-premises is essential
16:57:25 <jds2001> with varying repos, etc.
16:59:09 <sgallagh> OK, I'll talk with some of the Atomic people and get an idea of what kinds of tooling they have around and whether it could be adapted for such a purpose. (Or if we'd be looking at a whole new approach)
16:59:33 <sgallagh> Alright, I have to get to another meeting, so is everyone alright if we skip Open Floor today?
17:00:11 <sgallagh> silence == consent
17:00:14 <sgallagh> #endmeeting