16:02:29 <geppetto> #startmeeting fpc
16:02:29 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Aug  6 16:02:29 2015 UTC.  The chair is geppetto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:02:29 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
16:02:29 <geppetto> #meetingname fpc
16:02:29 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fpc'
16:02:29 <geppetto> #topic Roll Call
16:03:17 <geppetto> geppetto limburgher mbooth orionp racor Rathann SmootherFr0gZ tibbs tomspur: FPC ping
16:03:29 <mbooth> .hello mbooth
16:03:30 <zodbot> mbooth: mbooth 'Mat Booth' <mat.booth@redhat.com>
16:03:37 <geppetto> #chair mbooth
16:03:37 <zodbot> Current chairs: geppetto mbooth
16:04:28 <Rathann> hi
16:04:29 <geppetto> #chair Rathann
16:04:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto mbooth
16:04:34 <geppetto> #chair tomspur
16:04:34 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto mbooth tomspur
16:05:23 <gbcox> switched to a balcony seat today ;-)
16:05:41 <geppetto> still at the back though ?:)
16:05:51 <gbcox> ROFL.... yup
16:06:03 <gbcox> try to keep a low profile
16:06:12 <Corey84> which mtg is this  now?
16:06:29 <geppetto> Corey84: FPC
16:07:00 * Corey84 sits in back row to  learn about as he is  not  in FPC  presently
16:08:03 <tomspur> tibbs|w: was around a few minutes ago, so I think we could start
16:08:29 <geppetto> Yeh, I figure he'll get here
16:08:29 <tibbs|w> Yeah, I howdy'd earlier.
16:08:32 <geppetto> ok
16:08:35 <geppetto> #chair tibbs
16:08:35 <zodbot> Current chairs: Rathann geppetto mbooth tibbs tomspur
16:08:49 <geppetto> #topic Schedule
16:08:54 <geppetto> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/packaging/2015-August/010905.html
16:09:05 <geppetto> #topic #555 	Copylib bundling request: kwsys in castxml
16:09:05 <geppetto> .fpc 555
16:09:05 <geppetto> https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/555
16:09:06 <zodbot> geppetto: #555 (Copylib bundling request: kwsys in castxml) – fpc - https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/555
16:10:24 <tibbs|w> There's not much anyone can do here.
16:10:31 <geppetto> nice … so "bundling library" which is giant
16:10:56 <tibbs|w> Yeah.
16:11:17 <tibbs|w> It's a bunch of files, but the source is mostly ifdefs and such to do platform abstraction.
16:11:18 <geppetto> contains replacements for most of libc++?
16:11:39 <tibbs|w> I don't understand why the namespace is so important, though.
16:12:08 <geppetto> I assume so that N libraries can bundle it all within different namespaces
16:12:15 <geppetto> shared libraries that is
16:12:23 <tibbs|w> I mean, why do they not just stick it in its own namespace instead of having packages renamespace it?
16:12:34 <tibbs|w> And then stick that in a shared library....
16:13:01 <Rathann> geppetto: which is still code duplication :(
16:13:01 <geppetto> because it's more fun if you have N different bundles which are all slightly different versions
16:13:49 <Rathann> huh, this is the same upstream as CMake
16:14:03 <Rathann> and VTK and ParaView...
16:14:28 <Rathann> and InsightToolkit
16:15:27 <Rathann> I assume they did this because they want to support many platforms
16:15:35 <Rathann> but still it should be a shared library
16:16:12 <tomspur> It seems while renamespacing it you can select which parts you want to include, so that each bundling is different from the final content
16:16:25 <geppetto> yeh, I'm pretty heavy -1
16:16:35 <Rathann> tomspur: yes, but does it make sense in Fedora?
16:17:28 <tomspur> Rathann: I'm wondering why that cannot be solved with normal ifdefs...
16:18:38 <Rathann> depending on the number of platform-specific features you depend on, this can get unwieldy
16:18:54 <Rathann> so I can understand why they wanted to write an abstraction layer
16:19:38 <geppetto> Yeh, but this is basically a c++ version of glib … it's insane to bundle it in every piece of code that wants to use it
16:19:47 <Rathann> yep
16:20:29 <geppetto> ha … the regexp. code isn't a wrapper … it's a full implementation
16:21:08 <Rathann> huh
16:21:17 <Rathann> NIH syndrome?
16:21:34 <geppetto> there might not be a system one on win32
16:23:03 <geppetto> I mean … I can see the desire to just include one, just need to face up to the fact you are a real library/API at that point
16:23:25 <Rathann> reimplements parts of STL too
16:25:11 <Rathann> and string implementation is broken on non-C locales (has a hardcoded table of uppercase letters)
16:25:23 <Rathann> meh
16:25:26 <tibbs|w> I'm seeing this as a really bad idea, but I'm not sure that there's any reasonable solution that doesn't involve just pulling the packages.
16:26:01 <geppetto> yeh, I mean someone could try to package it as a shared library in Fedora
16:26:19 <tibbs|w> Yes, but how would other software use it?
16:26:30 <geppetto> Choose a semi random namespace and just do it … but meh.
16:26:46 <geppetto> It's almost better to say "upstream insane, port to boost"
16:26:54 <Rathann> it looks like it's even actively maintained
16:26:57 <tibbs|w> I have no idea how that would work, or how C++ namespacing  works at all.
16:27:01 <Rathann> last commit was 2 days ago
16:27:13 <tibbs|w> It wasn't even part of the language when I first learned it in school.
16:27:48 <Rathann> huh
16:27:55 <geppetto> Rathann: Are you sure you are looking at just commits to the kwsys bits and not castxml in total?
16:28:06 <Rathann> geppetto: I'm looking at http://public.kitware.com/gitweb?p=KWSys.git;a=log
16:28:13 <Rathann> this is kwsys upstream, isn't it?
16:28:25 <geppetto> ahh, well … that's much worse then as the castxml bits haven't been updated in months/years
16:28:40 <Rathann> they seem to support such exotic platforms as HP-UX and VMS
16:28:51 <tibbs|w> Sure, why not?
16:29:08 <geppetto> on the upside I'm sure nobody cares if you bundle everyone on HP-UX
16:29:09 <tibbs|w> But don't make people trying to do reasonable software engineering suffer because of it.
16:30:08 <tibbs|w> So, this is a lot like the scintilla problem.
16:30:32 <tibbs|w> It's bundled several times but there's no standalone package which someone could use.
16:30:59 <tibbs|w> And until we get a volunteer to make that package, we can't tell the bundlers to use it.
16:32:30 <Rathann> yeah
16:33:06 <Rathann> I wonder... does cmake bundle it? ;)
16:33:26 <geppetto> looks like debian castxml bundles it
16:33:26 <tibbs|w> It's sort of like the jquery issue.  Once it was packaged we started making people use it.
16:34:27 <tibbs|w> So, what to do?  Temporary exemption until we have a separate package?
16:36:28 <geppetto> I guess … although that doesn't seem very temporary
16:37:39 <tibbs|w> Well, the idea is that if we put a limit on it then someone will be motivated.
16:38:01 <Rathann> hm hold on, castxml is not in Fedora yet
16:38:26 <Rathann> so the submitter could be asked to package kwsys
16:38:40 <geppetto> yeh, but cmake is
16:38:47 <geppetto> and cmake bundles it, I assume
16:38:53 <geppetto> It's bundled in debian
16:39:46 * Rathann checks
16:40:03 <tomspur> Uh: http://www.cmake.org/gitweb?p=cmake.git;a=tree;f=Source/kwsys it does
16:40:14 <Rathann> it does
16:40:29 <geppetto> yeh, even more amusing
16:40:29 <Rathann> *sigh*
16:40:33 <geppetto> From the cmake specfile:
16:40:34 <geppetto> # Source/kwsys/MD5.c
16:40:34 <geppetto> # see https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging:No_Bundled_Libraries
16:40:35 <geppetto> Provides: bundled(md5-deutsch)
16:40:46 <Rathann> *LOL*
16:41:21 <geppetto> I mean … sure, just ignore all the other files in that dir. :)
16:41:41 <Rathann> missing the elephant in the room...
16:41:49 <tibbs|w> I have a suspicion that orion might be interested in maintaining a separate package.
16:42:16 <geppetto> Although I guess if cmake is the same upstream they might feel differently about it … *sigh*
16:42:25 <Rathann> still... existing bundling is no excuse for new bundling
16:42:29 <geppetto> tibbs: that would be cool
16:42:59 <geppetto> Rathann: Yeh, I'm just saying that while I don't know how useful castxml is … it's not like we can bounce cmake :)
16:45:35 <Rathann> so... -1 and recommend packaging kwsys separately (ask orionp for help)?
16:47:45 <geppetto> yeh, I guess … although it's somewhat complicated due to cmake
16:48:14 <geppetto> If something big/useful is stuck behind castxml, I could see trying the temp. exception thing
16:48:26 <tibbs|w> Agreed.  -1 for now but I would agree to a "check back in two releases" exemption.
16:49:00 * tomspur nods
16:49:33 <tibbs|w> We do need to file bugs for tracking.
16:49:38 <geppetto> yeh
16:49:56 <tibbs|w> And it would be kind of nice if we knew that it would be possible to unbundle once there's a standalone package.
16:50:05 <tibbs|w> I mean, I don't know if that's remotely reasonable.
16:51:50 <tibbs|w> How much patching is involved in using the library in another namespace?  How many of these bundlers have made modifications to the code base?
16:52:28 <tibbs|w> It's interesting that git and submodules have made it easier to bundle, but also easier to keep track of local modifications.
16:54:06 <geppetto> yeh, java infecting everyone has "helped" too :)
16:54:09 * geppetto shrugs
16:56:15 <geppetto> #action The opinion seems to be that this is a mess, -1 for bundling unless you can come up with an important usecase for castxml getting into Fedora soon.
16:56:44 <geppetto> #action orionp Do you want to help with trying to create a real library?
16:57:34 <Rathann> I'm filing a bug against cmake and others
16:57:41 <geppetto> cool, much thanks
16:58:31 <geppetto> #topic Open Floor
16:58:54 <geppetto> I don't think we need to say more than tibbs did on 556
16:59:01 <geppetto> So anyone have anything else?
16:59:20 <geppetto> One thing to note is that next weeks meeting is almost certainly canceled
17:01:00 <Rathann> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1251198
17:01:09 <geppetto> Ok, I'll close the meeting in a couple of minutes … see everyone in a couple of weeks
17:01:14 <geppetto> Rathann: thanks again
17:01:25 <tibbs|w> Wow, nothing else.
17:01:34 <tibbs|w> Well, we're down to very few tickets now.
17:01:35 <geppetto> No, we only had the one new ticket
17:01:39 * geppetto nods
17:01:55 <Rathann> yeah, congratulations on getting through the pile of tickets ;)
17:02:00 <Rathann> over the last few months
17:02:07 <tibbs|w> Thanks.
17:02:18 <tibbs|w> I could probably clean up a few more.
17:02:19 <Rathann> I have to leave now as well, so I'll file bugs against other bundlers later tonight
17:02:23 <geppetto> yeh, this feels like the first meeting that only took an hour that we've had this year :)
17:02:28 <Rathann> \o/
17:02:32 <tibbs|w> I certainly don't want to extend it.
17:02:35 <Rathann> also, it's holiday season ;)
17:02:46 <geppetto> yeh, true
17:02:48 <Rathann> so take care, get some rest, etc.
17:02:52 * geppetto nods
17:02:55 <Rathann> bye
17:02:56 <tibbs|w> It's "don't go outside because it's 40C" season for me.
17:03:16 <geppetto> tibbs: vacation somewhere colder ?;)
17:03:28 <tibbs|w> Well, Rochester next week.
17:03:42 <geppetto> yeh, weather is looking sucky too :(
17:03:51 <tibbs|w> My wife just got back from Norway (where it didn't get above 10C) but I didn't go this year.
17:04:28 <geppetto> Your vacation was alone time ?;)
17:04:48 <tibbs|w> Pretty much.  Which means I stayed in the office until midnight every day.
17:05:03 <geppetto> #endmeeting