17:02:17 #startmeeting Cloud WG weekly meeting 17:02:17 Meeting started Wed Dec 4 17:02:17 2013 UTC. The chair is number80. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:02:17 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 17:02:30 #topic roll call 17:02:45 .fas hguemar 17:02:45 number80: hguemar 'Haïkel Guémar' 17:02:49 * rbergeron is here 17:02:55 * jzb_ is here 17:03:03 sorry 17:03:06 * jzb is here 17:03:51 I'm here but may be vomited on by a small child at any minute. 17:04:10 mattdm: welcome to my universe of the past two days :) 17:04:30 mattdm: as long as it doesn't vomit on my irc window, i'm fine ;) 17:04:54 * number80 is enjoying his last days being childless 17:04:57 sadly, my life is childless and vomit free 17:05:05 I did ask her to say away from the keyboard 17:05:11 * jzb isn't sure that's actually sad... 17:05:44 everyone's here ? fedoristas, sick children and fluffy bots ? 17:06:09 hello frankieonuonga 17:06:13 jzb you can come get vomited on here any time you like 17:06:20 hi number80 17:06:27 mattdm: now that's hospitality 17:06:34 mattdm: You are very generous 17:06:48 samkottler won't be with us tonight but he was kind enough to sent us the agenda of the meeting on the list 17:07:13 oh ok 17:07:17 #chair rbergeron jzb mattdm frankieonuonga geppetto 17:07:17 Current chairs: frankieonuonga geppetto jzb mattdm number80 rbergeron 17:07:29 welcome mates 17:07:49 well, if we don't disagree too much, we have a room for quorum + 1 grumpy person :) 17:07:57 :-) 17:08:08 i suggest that we start ? 17:08:30 yeah 17:08:47 #topic Release cadence and lifecyle 17:09:16 oh boy. fun topic :) 17:09:16 so there was a short discussion on the mailing list... 17:09:33 yup 17:10:12 main focus was on doing refreshed builds and i think there's a general agreement that we should, regularly. 17:10:33 mattdm: how regular ? 17:10:40 * rbergeron nods 17:10:58 I think weekly seemed to be the consensus of "what seems sane" on the list 17:11:21 though some other things were mentioned as possible additional triggers 17:11:22 I also think the idea of trigger-based rebuilds is interesting. 17:11:24 yup, that's what does ubuntu 17:11:25 security 17:11:49 mattdm: we could mix both 17:12:08 maybe guaranteed monthly + whatever other triggered updates? 17:12:43 that seems reasonnable 17:12:43 mattdm: i do too - esp. for security - i'm not entirely sure that the yum update more than 50MB would be one. (unless it was "if we weren't doing a weekly") 17:13:16 yeah, if we're doing a weekly that trigger is less necessary 17:13:20 50MB of update is not a trigger too difficult to enable ;) 17:13:26 at least, for fedora 17:13:41 It's also not a trigger too difficult to hit with a package or two :) 17:13:52 just a comment. an update every week means people will frequently be visiting the site to download. isnt it easier to just push updates up and advice guys to update 17:13:52 at least, unless bug fix updates start getting batched at a distro level a al spot's proposal 17:13:58 One advantage that ubuntu has is that they have _much_ less updates. 17:14:18 I am thinking in terms of revision...cause we have to think of numbering and all that 17:14:56 we're still not that good to distinguish security/enhancements updates (contributor-dependent switch) 17:15:08 geppetto: why does Ubuntu have fewer updates? 17:15:24 jzb: less aggressive maintainers 17:15:29 if we have a comparable set of packages, won't we average about the same # of updates? 17:15:48 jzb: number80 said it in the most politic way. 17:15:57 geppetto: :-) 17:17:46 so, do we want to make any specific decisions on this right now? 17:18:13 anyone has another option before submitting motion A: weekly and motion B: monthly + trigger-based 17:18:43 (A would also include security-based triggers, right?) 17:18:57 how will we revise this? 17:19:16 in terms of distinguishing the difference 17:19:44 mattdm: i would say that yes, A should include security-based triggers 17:19:50 I am for it..but most users do not need to be confused...that is why i ask 17:19:51 mattdm: I guess it partially depends on how much we can automate. 17:20:24 the new automatic nightly builds have me very optimistic about automation possibilities 17:20:40 so, i'd go for A :) 17:20:43 I think that weekly is a great goal, but I also fear that we don't have enough automated to produce them and know damn well they will work, whereas monthly can give us a bit of sane testing time and figure out what all actually should be tested 17:20:52 before we're totally confident that autogenerated things *just work* 17:20:57 right, it's the testing automation that is the problem. 17:20:58 (the universe i live for. lol) 17:21:06 rbergeron sounds good 17:21:07 +1 to that universe 17:21:28 and monthly images is something we can think of scheduling in the schedule, and gives us some predictability so people can anticipate when we'll be testing. 17:21:31 anyone else ? 17:21:44 i will go with b +1 17:21:46 (let me be the grumpy person for this one ;) ) 17:21:47 rbergeron so in that case, would the trigger-based updates get less testing? 17:21:55 ie: we can schedule those like, if we were doing them ight now, we wouldn't want to be worrying about those in the same weeks as perhaps when we're trying to get a alpha/beta/GA out the door. 17:22:18 mattdm: i would imaging that a trigger-based update would only pull in the triggering thing? (wihch hopefully isn't a "change the universe" type thing) 17:22:27 or would we just re-roll the whole thing, all available updates? 17:22:35 geppetto, jzb your input ? 17:22:49 re-rolling the whole thing is much, much easier. 17:23:03 Unless we have a good way to manage it I think having near 50 imagines available near EOL is probably a bad idea. 17:23:07 plus, you never know if one little change breaks the whole universe 17:23:08 so b +1. 17:23:19 number80: I'd go with B+1 17:23:30 mattdm: yeah 17:24:10 #agreed cadence release to be monthly + trigger-based updates until we're more confident on automated testing (rbergeron) 17:24:16 is that ok with you ? 17:24:22 brb guys 17:24:23 yes. 17:24:46 ack. 17:24:48 ok, let's switch to another *phun* topic 17:24:51 and we can define triggers as needed. (critical-level security updates, for example.) 17:24:55 * rbergeron doens't know what the triggers are.. but 17:24:59 yes, what matt said 17:25:06 #topic Product Branding 17:25:30 https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/3 17:25:41 https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/3 a ticket has been opened on our trac 17:27:02 okay, so, we're supposed to get back to the design team about this today :) 17:28:36 Lando Calrissian could have provided us cool artwork :) 17:28:48 mattdm: I *think* we agreed on language last meeting? 17:29:22 jzb yeah. plus you and number80 had some good comments on the mailing list before. 17:29:23 jzb: +1 17:29:41 jzb can you write that up in the ticket and forward it to the design team? 17:29:48 mattdm: yeah 17:30:06 lol 17:30:10 #agreed jzb will complete the ticket https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/3 and forward it to the design team 17:30:12 rbergeron: ? 17:30:48 * rbergeron was snickering about the lando calrissian comment, that's all 17:30:58 ooh vomit time 17:31:12 Cloud City is the best 17:31:40 and there's no vomitting kids only nice stormtroopers 17:31:48 mattdm: :/ 17:31:59 anything else to add ? 17:32:08 about the branding stuff ? 17:32:26 * rbergeron has nothing 17:32:40 next topic 17:32:47 #topic PRD 17:33:00 remember that deadline is december, 15 17:33:24 https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/3 it hasn't changed much (or at all) since last meeting 17:33:35 my section will be done by tomorrow night 17:33:42 great news :) 17:33:49 number80: that's the branding ticket :-) 17:33:58 just not put it up 17:34:02 sorry 17:34:08 jzb: good eyes ;) 17:34:14 https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_PRD 17:34:24 number80: not really... :-) and they get worse every year... 17:34:51 old man ! 17:35:18 btw, i'll have to commit the personas (taken from openstack) 17:35:30 rbergeron: anything to say ? 17:36:57 number80: sorry. MANY WINDOWS ON FIRE - I only have to say... help is welcome. pretty please. 17:37:12 I have been poking here and there but ... yeah. 17:37:22 frankieonuonga: your section is the personas, yes? 17:37:24 rbergeron: I'll try to put in a sustained effort on it tonight or tomorrow. 17:37:36 mine is cloudstack 17:37:47 i am the darth lord of the personas 17:38:27 personas....i can not recall that well who took that of me.. 17:38:27 it is somewhere on the mailing list 17:38:27 but I can take it up if you need me to 17:39:31 * rbergeron nods 17:40:03 if we don't get much this week we might consider having a mini-hackfest on it for a few hours. 17:40:11 basically a good kickstart: https://docs.google.com/document/d/16rkiXWxxgzGT47_Wc6hzIPzO2-s2JWAPEKD0gP2mt7E/edit 17:40:11 nice to have company and stuff while working through it. :) 17:40:27 rbergeron: you need me to take this up ? 17:40:44 some personnas could be reused or serve as an example for people not used to that 17:40:47 rbergeron: I can take Release/Product Overview 17:41:09 (inc. Market Oppty, Product Objectives, etc.) 17:42:14 number80: yeah, i recalled that someone was looking at adding some of that stuff in or ... massaging it so it would fit in. :) 17:42:28 jzb: that would be dandy. 17:42:44 basically i think if we can at least get some stuff stubbed in people will feel more confident about filling other parts in or elaborating more. 17:42:53 #info if PRD is still stuck next week, organize a mini-hackfest to fix that (few hours) 17:43:29 But if we want to make sure that "what we want to implement" ties back to "what we know people want" and isn't just random shots in the dark - that we're really doing something comprehensive - making sure things like personas or use cases and, market opportunities, overviews, etc. are really good to have. 17:44:00 otherwise we're just ... kind of going to be adding in whatever sounds awesome, which is great for itch-scratching, but doesn't necessarily get us something pimpin' awesome. 17:44:09 #agreed frankieonuonga taking lead on cloudstack/ jzb on Release/Product Overview 17:44:25 and i have this great purple zebra-striped velvet suit i want to wear when i talk about fedora and cloud. 17:44:36 (okay, not really.) 17:45:19 from that google doc looks like that is only for open stack right ? 17:45:54 frankieonuonga: yup, but it overlaps or non-strictly includes similar use cases 17:46:02 frankieonuonga: I think there's a LOT of overlap. 17:46:29 i am murky about the re-usability of content from a "is it freely available content" perspective 17:46:39 (unless it's been updated with some sort of license since i last looked) 17:46:54 rbergeron: nearyd says it was ok, i could ask him again friday 17:47:29 rbergeron: what's the source? 17:47:44 jzb: openstack foundation 17:47:48 i can harass him about it tomorrow - he may still even be in today - if nothing else it's good inspiration. 17:47:55 ok. Got it . 17:47:56 thanks mates 17:48:11 rbergeron: right, you're in the same team :) 17:48:12 jzb: though it was a work in progress for a bit 17:48:31 up until the summit which has closed few weeks ago 17:48:34 number80: hahaha. not actually :) 17:48:39 ok 17:49:41 so i can't bribe your mgr 17:50:21 oops...we only have 15 min ...we might need to hurry if we have a lot more to cover 17:50:22 probably not. 17:50:29 do we continue or move to the next exciting topic ? 17:50:31 okay, let's move on :) 17:50:57 #topic Release criteria for post-F20 cloud images 17:50:57 #action rbergeron to poke mr. neary re: personas 17:51:19 * mattdm is back 17:51:30 good 17:51:54 https://fedorahosted.org/cloud/ticket/4 trac ticket opened by mattdm on that matter (+ discussion kickstarted on the list) 17:52:28 this is due to f20 almost being very very broken. :) 17:52:45 * number80 poke gholms there's no eucalyptus in our criteria 17:52:46 I suggest we remove this one from the meeting agenda for now and start accumulating cases in the ticket 17:53:15 i don't mind so +1 17:53:58 +1 17:54:11 +1 17:54:26 mattdm: if there are any tickets or urgent testing to do for F20, feel free to send a list on the list 17:54:38 frankieonuonga: ? 17:55:18 * gholms likes that idea 17:55:35 number80: I will not vote on this one..sorry. I am on the fence 17:55:50 number80 right now, testing the latest candidates (currently TC4) for anything brown-paper-bag-awful is the main thing. 17:55:55 frankieonuonga: no problem 17:56:25 mattdm: ok, i'll take some time this w-e for that 17:56:39 no quorum but postponing should be ok 17:57:05 #agreed postponing the discussion about release criteria after we clean the F20 mess 17:57:31 are we postponing or just moving it to the ticket? 17:57:43 not that F20 is actually a _mess_. It's pretty nice really. 17:57:51 #undo 17:57:51 Removing item from minutes: 17:57:58 mattdm: just busy timing :) 17:58:31 rbergeron: we could continue the thinking on the ticket but polishing F20 is indeed a priority 17:58:50 (and the PRD too) 17:59:27 yeah we don't _really_ need post-f20 test cases for another four months or so. 17:59:35 #agreed postponing the discussion about release criteria after F20 release (discussion could continue in the ticket) 17:59:47 sounds lovely. 17:59:55 +1 18:00:15 is there another ticket guys...we are almost out of time 18:00:38 frankieonuonga: which one ? our relation with server WG ? 18:01:01 I'd move we try to start discussing that on the list. 18:01:07 ok 18:01:11 there's *no way* we can do justice to that right now. 18:01:16 #topic Relation with server WG 18:01:41 who agrees with jzb that we move the discussion to the list (no quorum, and very long topic) 18:01:43 +1 18:01:44 +1 18:02:25 sorry about that...bad net connection here 18:02:50 frankieonuonga: we're voting about moving the discussion about our relation with server WG to the list 18:03:23 number80: +1 18:03:24 +1 18:03:28 quorum 18:04:00 #agreed move the discussion about the cloud/server WG relation and their overlap to the list 18:04:12 so i suggest we move to the delightful open floor 18:04:21 #topic Openfloor 18:04:56 #info we have nightly qcow nightly builds thanks to Rel-eng koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/tasks?state=all&view=tree&method=appliance&order=-id 18:05:18 any topic you want to bring on ? 18:05:26 \o/ 18:08:44 ...sounds like a no :) 18:08:49 ok, i'll assume that's the end 18:08:58 thanks for coming guys 18:09:08 Thank you for your time and see you next week ! 18:09:12 #stopmeeting 18:09:20 #endmeeting