17:28:30 <mchua> #startmeeting
17:28:30 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Mar 13 17:28:30 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:28:32 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
17:28:40 <ianweller> i feel deja vu
17:28:46 <mchua> Marketing FAD, day 1, post-lunch braindump log HAS OPENED!
17:29:11 <ianweller> mchua: do you need to re-chair everybody
17:29:16 <ianweller> #chairs
17:29:19 <ianweller> not helpful
17:29:35 <rrix> ianweller: possibly
17:29:51 <mchua> #chair ianweller
17:29:52 <zodbot> Current chairs: ianweller mchua
17:29:53 <hiemanshu> #info Marketing FAD, day 1, post-lunch braindump log HAS OPENED!
17:29:53 <mchua> ianweller: go for it ;)
17:29:58 <mchua> hiemanshu: thanks!
17:30:29 <ianweller> #chair spevack VileGent heffer inode0 ke4qqq nmarques quaid poelcat rbergeron rrix
17:30:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: VileGent heffer ianweller inode0 ke4qqq mchua nmarques poelcat quaid rbergeron rrix spevack
17:30:38 <ianweller> #chair wonderer4711 wonderer yn1v stickster
17:30:38 <zodbot> Current chairs: VileGent heffer ianweller inode0 ke4qqq mchua nmarques poelcat quaid rbergeron rrix spevack stickster wonderer wonderer4711 yn1v
17:30:44 <ianweller> i dont' know if anybody else is participating
17:30:49 <mchua> ianweller: you rock. Thanks!
17:30:58 <ianweller> tab-completion saves my ass again! \o/
17:31:00 <hiemanshu> ianweller: I AM !
17:31:04 <ianweller> #chair hiemanshu
17:31:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: VileGent heffer hiemanshu ianweller inode0 ke4qqq mchua nmarques poelcat quaid rbergeron rrix spevack stickster wonderer wonderer4711 yn1v
17:31:23 <hiemanshu> < mchua> ianweller: you rock. Thanks!
17:31:30 <ianweller> lol
17:31:32 * hiemanshu feeling too lazy today
17:31:56 <hiemanshu> quaid: stream still dead for ya ?
17:32:47 <inode0> still dead here
17:33:12 <mchua> We're going to lunch now for the folks in RDU, so we're turning off the mics.
17:33:12 <stickster> We're going to shut down the mics, hang up and stop the stream for now
17:33:18 <stickster> We'll restart when we return
17:33:41 <poelcat_> what time is restart?
17:33:56 <stickster> poelcat_ 2pm/11am
17:34:02 <stickster> EST/PST
17:34:17 <poelcat_> thank you... happy eats
17:34:19 * stickster dumps in https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_marketing_post-mortem
17:34:24 <stickster> poelcat_ thanks for being here!
17:34:38 <quaid> ok, maybe there is time for a bike ride to UCSC and back
17:35:57 <quaid> ... that or I shovel from this pile of horse manure still in the driveway for a bit, maybe I can work up some aerobic exercise that way
18:21:17 * hiemanshu looks at the youtube video put up by mchua_afk
18:21:22 <hiemanshu> Damn I really wanted to be here
18:23:01 <rbergeron> our lunch is taking longer than expected....
18:23:21 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: you really seem to be camera shy
18:23:30 <rbergeron> yes.
18:23:35 <rbergeron> that's the truth.
18:25:15 <inode0> anyone know what video equipment was used for the youtube upload?
18:26:06 * inode0 is thinking about getting a Zi8 for ambassadors to use at events maybe
18:26:32 <rbergeron> flip video of some sort.
18:27:25 <rbergeron> i think we're thinking 2:30... at least 2.
18:36:27 <rbergeron> just a heads up :)
18:38:11 <rbergeron> poelcat, quaid -  ^^ note time :)
18:39:16 <hiemanshu> rbergeron: 20 mins more to restart, you done with $food?
18:39:41 <poelcat_> thank you
19:00:05 <rbergeron> we're in route back
19:00:15 <rbergeron> 10 min?
19:00:19 <rbergeron> i would guess
19:12:04 <mchua_afk> We are back from food!
19:12:17 <mchua> And people are staggering in full and regrouping.
19:12:54 <rrix> hark!
19:12:59 <rrix> an mchua!
19:13:15 * nmarques smiles
19:13:17 <mchua> hark! a rrix - and banana pudding!
19:13:24 <mchua> Hey, Nelson. :) Good to have you here.
19:13:28 <mchua> nmarques: Does the backlog make sense?
19:13:59 <nmarques> mchua, »
19:14:02 <nmarques> mchua, ?
19:14:22 <nmarques> mchua, I have readed the log if thats what you pointing :)
19:15:09 * nmarques is being tortured by weird acronyms and techie slang :(
19:15:30 <rrix> mchua: it's in the kitchen when you want it :)
19:15:46 <rrix> nmarques: does http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/fedora-fad.2010-03-13-14.39.log.html make sense?
19:16:27 <nmarques> rrix, yes it does :)
19:16:52 <nmarques> rrix, except for the stream problems :)
19:16:56 <rrix> ;)
19:18:22 <mchua> poelcat_, you around?
19:18:40 <threethirty> where is the stream?
19:18:40 <mchua> We're getting started up again, looking at agenda...
19:18:51 <mchua> threethirty: not quite up yet
19:18:53 <mchua> working on it
19:19:04 <poelcat_> mchua: yes
19:19:33 <threethirty> mchua: is it a regular webstream?
19:20:30 <poelcat_> btw sound quality is excellent right now... thank you :)
19:20:39 <stickster> Stream is up here: http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl
19:20:41 <VileGent> threethirty,  in topic
19:20:55 <rrix> moin herlo !
19:20:58 <herlo> rrix: hi
19:21:02 <herlo> just lurking
19:21:05 <threethirty> VileGent: *facepalm*
19:21:59 <nmarques> firing a stupid question
19:22:07 <nmarques> is it supposed to play through the browser ?
19:22:23 <poelcat_> nmarques: click on m3u
19:22:36 <poelcat_> then accept default play option
19:22:42 <poelcat_> which should be totem
19:23:01 <rrix> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-March/132790.html <-- Survey thread
19:23:01 <nmarques> ok, twisted mime's probably
19:23:34 <mchua> We're discussing the schedule for the afternoon and figuring out how we want to spend our remaining 3.5 hours.
19:23:54 <mchua> We're not doing infrastructure stuff (no packaging, etc.)
19:24:22 <rrix> ke4qqq and I will probably still do that after-hours, no? (tomorrow)
19:24:24 <mchua> but we're going to be talking about, for instance, what surveys we need to run and how to set them up (as opposed to actually deploying limesurvey right now)
19:24:28 <mchua> rrix: I thought that was tonight
19:24:32 * nmarques got the streaming, too low, but it's playing
19:24:43 <rrix> mchua: hockies tonite, hackies tomorw
19:24:59 <threethirty> nmarques: its a phone in the middle of the room we are lucky yo have this :)
19:25:04 <mchua> rrix: ah yes. I'm good with that. :D
19:25:09 <rrix> :D
19:25:25 <mchua> rbergeron is asking about the existing "marketing plan" page
19:25:52 <mchua> spevack is explaining that that page is the result of him and gregdek dumping the skeleton of a marketing plan on the wiki and then kinda leaving it there
19:25:58 * nmarques grabbing headset so I can boot the sound
19:26:05 <mchua> so we need to actually make a marketing plan.
19:26:09 <poelcat_> what would be the goals or expected outcomes of having a marketing plan?
19:26:27 <poelcat_> IOW "why should we invest our time in a marketing plan and what will it give us?"
19:26:41 <mchua> poelcat_: can you hear us?
19:26:49 <poelcat_> yes
19:27:05 <poelcat_> i just wanted to reimphasize that we are clear on our purpose
19:27:08 <mchua> stickster: the marketing plan - it's a plan for the marketing team to do their work.
19:27:11 <mchua> poelcat_: +1
19:27:11 <poelcat_> vs. retread the original plan
19:27:26 <poelcat_> get to the end and say "wow, there's nothting we can use here"
19:27:54 * poelcat_ suggesting 'starting with the end in mind'
19:27:59 * mchua wants to ask stupid question: how far off is http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/ from what we're looking for?
19:29:02 <wonderer4711> I found my "plan" - http://wonderer.fedorapeople.org/marketingplan.odt most of this I get out of some Marketing strategies books.
19:29:21 <mchua> rbergeron: one thing - we hope we'll be able to get marketing students to look at this and go "oh, okay, this makes sense, I can help."
19:29:51 <nmarques> guys
19:29:57 <mchua> stickster: if "real marketing people" need some sort of "Marketing plan" to get started, then both sides need to figure out those expectations.
19:29:59 <nmarques> mind if I say something ? I'm hearing the streaming
19:30:02 <mchua> nmarques: go for it, I'll relay you to the room
19:30:05 <rrix> nmarques: go :)
19:30:20 <nmarques> guys the worst problem so far
19:30:26 <nmarques> is to find the simple things
19:30:38 <nmarques> and those things are not exactly to be defined in marketing
19:30:42 <mchua> stickster: "are we writing this plan so we'll be able to do our mktg stuff, or are we trying to attract other people who can do it?"
19:30:42 <poelcat_> are we doing a gobby doc of notes on this?
19:30:49 <nmarques> it's thing that come from the community
19:30:59 <mchua> poelcat_: afaik just IRC right now, if we start writing a doc I'm guessing it'll be gobbified
19:31:07 <nmarques> the worst thing that I've runned across so far
19:31:17 <poelcat_> i'll start one
19:31:21 <mchua> nmarques: What simple things are you describing? (Trying to wrap my head around what you're saying...)
19:31:24 <mchua> Thanks poelcat_.
19:31:29 <nmarques> is to know how the community wants to be translated to the audience
19:31:50 <nmarques> mchua, what image do we want to translate to people
19:31:55 <mchua> nmarques: As soon as Max is done, I'll shout your comments to the room, keep adding them :)
19:32:04 <mchua> spevack: *has been writing on the board*
19:32:13 <poelcat_> doc name = fad-marketing-plan
19:32:16 <mchua> spevack: I've been trying to figure out the purpose of something like this.
19:32:23 <mchua> spevack: and for me, it's listing the goals of the marketing team...
19:32:32 <mchua> spevack: *writes on board* (1) fluid. it's a wiki
19:32:45 <mchua> spevack: *writes on board* (2) list fedora-mktg's primary goals / fedora's primary goals
19:32:52 <nmarques> robyn (I presume) is right ;)
19:32:57 <mchua> spevack: *writes on board* (3) key messages and guiding principles - 4 F's, TOSW
19:33:03 <mchua> nmarques: :D
19:33:06 <nmarques> a marketing plan should point the goals at a long term
19:33:16 <nmarques> and yes, this is a traditional business
19:33:22 <nmarques> should be treated as so
19:33:24 <mchua> rharrison: When you talk about SWOT, where we're positioned, what do we want to know?
19:33:39 <mchua> rharrison: how do we get a cohesive message in?
19:33:53 <nmarques> for your information, there are returned over 5.500 results if you search by Red Hat in the ABN/Inform database (proquest, proprietary)
19:34:44 <mchua> rharrison: the job of marketing is to figure out how the community wants to be represented.
19:35:19 * mchua goes to add (4) to Max's whiteboard - "what's happening towards this in the next release cycle?"
19:35:19 <poelcat_> rharrison: i would push against that slightly and suggest the marketing group can help lead too
19:35:42 <poelcat_> we've spent the last year + "trying to define who we are"
19:35:50 <nmarques> Fedora is >> MISSION + VISION
19:35:56 <poelcat_> now it is time to assert some things and move forward
19:35:57 <nmarques> thats 5 lines tops for both ;)
19:36:22 <mchua> spevack: rbergeron, do we need a marketing plan?
19:36:27 * hiemansh1 is listening to stream with vlc at 400% volume + Speaker at full volume (really loud) + heaphones
19:36:30 <nmarques> Marketing Plan is not needed except for strategical decisions
19:36:32 <mchua> rbergeron: we need to figure out how to address each of these audiences.
19:36:58 <nmarques> mchua, thats through communication, not through marketing plans
19:37:04 <mchua> VileGent: so can we aim a mktg plan at 3 groups - the same ones we aim for at talking points?
19:37:20 <poelcat_> phone just disappeared as i was trying to talk
19:37:37 <stickster> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User_base
19:37:39 <mchua> stickster: we have a userbase page that talks about the people the board decided we are aiming at.
19:38:19 <mchua> rharrison: then we can look at that userbase page and figure out the strategies for each type of user
19:38:28 <mchua> stickster: *pauses everyone to get poelcat_ back on the phone*
19:38:35 <mchua> stickster: hopefully we're being heard again now.
19:38:44 <poelcat_> NO AUDIO
19:38:54 <threethirty> its back but choppy
19:39:02 <hiemanshu> NO AUDIO !
19:39:11 <rbergeron> sworking on it
19:39:12 <nmarques> guys
19:39:13 <mchua> rharrison: first we ened to determine where we are and what we've got.
19:39:14 <rbergeron> fail keyboard
19:39:19 <mchua> rharrison: then where we want to be.
19:39:25 <mchua> rharrison: then how we're going to get there.
19:39:44 * poelcat_ thinks it is time to skip the step of "figuring out where we are" and define "this is where we want to be"
19:39:59 <poelcat_> and move towards it
19:40:07 <mchua> ke4qqq: when you say "where we want to be," do you mean mktg, or fedora?
19:40:09 <mchua> rharrison: fedroa
19:40:11 <mchua> er, fedora
19:40:14 * mchua can't type
19:40:21 <mchua> poelcat_: +1, btw
19:40:44 <nmarques> poelcat, that is by far the most important thing that should come out of this
19:40:45 <poelcat_> i think fedora marketing should assert where it thinks it should nudge the direction of fedora towards
19:40:57 <mchua> spevack: let us stop waiting for the board, and then come up with stuff this weekend to take *to* the board.
19:41:00 <mchua> stickster: +1
19:41:04 <poelcat_> you could spend another year asking everyone in fedora who we are
19:41:14 <mchua> nmarques: poelcat_ : I think we're generally agreeing with you. :)
19:41:17 <poelcat_> lol
19:41:36 <nmarques> poelcat, more or less, but when you deploy communication on the field, you need to know who we are
19:41:42 <mchua> Can someone else take over transcription?
19:41:55 <nmarques> poelcat, thats not for the community to decide, its whoever is running the show decision
19:41:58 * poelcat_ wonders if there is a way to set up a mic or some otther kind of speaker phone thing to someone's laptop and call directly into fedora talk with it
19:42:06 <poelcat_> seems the phone system in the room is FAIL
19:42:49 <mchua> Folks: go to gobby and to the fedora-marketing-plan doc
19:42:58 <yn1v> nmarques, this is a community is driven the show
19:43:09 * poelcat_ redialed into ftalk and can hear now
19:43:31 <mchua> 10 minutes
19:43:35 <mchua> 2 questions
19:43:38 <mchua> == Give 3 words that describe the distribution ==
19:43:47 <mchua> == 1 sentence description of the person that's happiest with the distro right now ==
19:43:55 <mchua> going around the table and I'm transcribing these resuts in gobby
19:44:06 <nmarques> yn1v, yes, but you have some sort of management in the middle
19:44:25 <nmarques> yn1v, I'm sure it's not the community who makes the strategical planning, is it?
19:47:47 <mchua> Can anyone here not see gobby?
19:47:51 <mchua> a lot of stuff happening in gobby right now
19:47:56 <mchua> everything getting transcribed into gobby
19:48:11 * hiemanshu cant see gobby
19:48:39 <nmarques> mchua, mind to care the server and relevant information to connect to gobby ?
19:49:09 <poelcat_> nmarques: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo
19:49:21 <stickster> poelcat_ The phone system is failing us badly.
19:49:31 <poelcat_> stickster: it's working right now
19:49:48 <poelcat_> stickster: but yes, wondering if there is a way to mic in someone's laptop
19:49:53 <mchua> spevack: "I think it's easier to become an influential contributor than a comfortable user."
19:50:02 <stickster> poelcat_ Not easily
19:50:12 <poelcat_> stickster: okay :)
19:50:13 <wonderer4711> cool. we are right now at step 2 of "my" marketingplan doc ;-)
19:51:21 * mchua makes the comparison between climbing the fedora learning curve and climbing the emacs learning curve
19:51:37 <poelcat_> what about having TWO marketing plans: 1 for the "distro" and 1 for the "project"
19:51:41 <mchua> stickster: so the happy user right now is someone who's already driven and expecting complexity.
19:52:10 <wonderer4711> poelcat: be patient. As I see that it all will work out as ONE....
19:52:13 <poelcat_> and by marketing plan I mean whatever we deem "necessary enough" to desribe our approach, what we want to achieve, and how to bring newbies up to speed
19:52:26 <nmarques> afk 1 min, phone
19:52:44 <poelcat_> wonderer: lol, you don't know me very well :)
19:53:00 <mchua> mchua: so we have "where we are, distro" right now... do we want to do "where we want to be, distro"?
19:53:05 <mchua> stickster: after the timer rings in 1m
19:53:34 <hiemanshu> mchua: what the current gobby document ?
19:54:11 <poelcat_> hiemanshu: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Communicate/GobbyHowTo document name = fad-marketing-plan
19:54:14 <VileGent> fad-marketing plan
19:54:15 <rharrison> fad-marketing-plan?
19:54:19 <wonderer4711> poelcat: you are right I do not know you - but I see where that "discussion" here went ;-) ... and at the end we NEED only one plan... wait for it ;-)
19:54:26 <hiemanshu> poelcat_: have the right one then :)
19:55:16 <mchua> look at the bottom of the gobby doc - we're moving on to "where we want to be"
19:55:22 <poelcat_> i think the important thing to emphasize about the "user base" is this this is the MINIMUM group we want to cater too
19:55:31 <poelcat_> but this is the starting point
19:55:41 <poelcat_> we do not go below this level
19:55:52 * mchua relays poelcat_ to the room
19:56:23 <mchua> ...or rather, david and paul do
19:56:27 <VileGent> channeling stickster again
19:56:45 <poelcat_> ke4qqq: it is as wide as we want to go
19:56:56 <poelcat_> and we narrow and add groups from there
19:58:04 <nmarques> guys
19:58:20 <nmarques> mind if I say something about == Give 3 words that describe the distribution ==
19:58:39 <nmarques> see distribution as product
19:58:52 <nmarques> and in this, there should also be included all services that are provided
19:59:07 <nmarques> not only the software itself, but also the IRC support, bug tracking tools, etc
19:59:20 <nmarques> it's all a part of the distro aswell, if you look at it as a "product"
20:00:07 <stickster> nmarques: Are there a couple words that are *not* in that list, that you think cover those services?
20:00:09 <ke4qqq> poelcat_: agreed - by setting that as the standard of excellence that you aspire to, the rest of our audience should 'just work'
20:01:07 <yn1v> nmarques, one thing that we spoke this morning was that we need to think on terms of the project/community as our goal is to have contributors more that user-base
20:01:50 <rrix> hiemanshu: pick a better color :)
20:01:51 <nmarques> stickster, I think we need to mention them ;)
20:02:02 * mchua has just come up with a list of 3 types of contributors that fit the ideal user profile but who we don't do all that well by right now
20:02:05 * mchua gobbifying
20:02:51 <hiemanshu> rrix: :P
20:03:20 <hiemanshu> rrix: better?
20:03:24 <rrix> hiemanshu: danke :)
20:03:32 <nmarques> who is speaking ?
20:03:57 <VileGent> max
20:04:29 <nmarques> stereotype haters ;)
20:05:07 <mchua> Max is explaining the === What can Fedora do for me? === section of the gobby doc
20:06:43 <mchua> Can someone take over the trasncribing? I'm struggling to follow the multi-person convo IRL.
20:07:00 <hiemanshu> mchua: you are FAIL! :P
20:07:13 <threethirty> rrix: jump in there
20:07:26 <rrix> threethirty: quoi?
20:07:32 <mchua> hiemanshu: I'm deaf ;)
20:07:44 <rrix> OH
20:07:45 <threethirty> rrix: help mchua out :)
20:07:47 <rrix> mchua: sorry
20:07:49 <rrix> I got it
20:07:52 <mchua> thanks rrix!
20:07:59 <hiemanshu> mchua: oh sorry, dint know
20:08:13 <rrix> stickster: OKAY, so we're doing all this awesome What is fedora stuff again, What is this doing for us to make a marketing plane
20:08:19 <rrix> <stuff I missed>
20:08:35 <rrix> stickster: Getting them into the use door is the _first_ step in getting someone involved definitely
20:08:47 <rrix> ke4qqq: well, you do see those peoiple but they disappear quickly
20:08:58 <rrix> stickster: yes, but they aren't the kind of people we want to spend time on
20:09:09 <rrix> okay, let's look at "userbase of tomorrow"
20:09:23 <rrix> VileGent: What can we come up with so that we can zero in on all four groups at once
20:09:31 <rrix> stickster: List from max could fill in the set
20:09:32 <hiemanshu> I have seen people who dont use fedora, but contribute to it (/me two packagers)
20:09:44 <hiemanshu> knows**
20:10:13 <rrix> ach, missing talk
20:10:15 <hiemanshu> mark who used to be a part of the websites team used arch linux, but helped fedora-websites
20:10:16 <nmarques> guys
20:10:35 <nmarques> people who don't know fedora will never use it
20:10:36 <mchua> nmarques: go ahead and talk in channel, we'll relay you in when we can
20:10:37 <hiemanshu> nmarques: what about the lovely girls mchua nad rbergeron ?
20:10:45 <hiemanshu> s/nad/and/
20:10:50 * mchua is used to being included in the "guys" moniker
20:10:57 <nmarques> people who are new to FOSS will go for something different, most likely to Ubuntu
20:10:59 <wonderer4711> hiemanchu +1 on the lovley girlstuff
20:11:07 <rrix> rbergeron: maybe i'm wrong, but I don't think that people just wake up one morning and say "hey i'm sick of windows XP and want to go google about this Linux tihng" and install fedora
20:11:16 <hiemanshu> nmarques: I disagree
20:11:20 <nmarques> and people who use Fedora usually have strong background with Red Hat/Fedora
20:11:36 <nmarques> hiemanshu, I am only saying this based on local lugs examples
20:11:50 <hiemanshu> nmarques: I am saying this in general
20:11:51 <nmarques> hiemanshu, for every fedora user you find, you get like 30 ubuntu users
20:11:56 <hiemanshu> most people ahave first choice as fedora
20:12:03 <hiemanshu> TBH i have never used ubuntu
20:12:03 <rrix> VileGent: we've got people coming into #fedora, saying 'were sick of thsi crap from Redmond, and now im trying all these different distributions, opensuse, ubuntu, debian, and now I have questions about this problem in fedora and how to fix it'
20:12:07 <wonderer4711> nmarques: then you have to fix this ;-) but the general goal are other.
20:12:49 <hiemanshu> nmarques: because you they have a good marketing and market, Google pays them for development
20:13:07 <hiemanshu> nmarques: loads of things people dont know about that distro
20:13:16 <rrix> spevack: Do we have any sort of agreement at the larger level that we start with users that have the technical know-how to get to help in #feodra, or other locales, or do we try to reach past them and try to get to the folks who _wouldnt_ do taht. I think that in the past we have said no to the latter, but...
20:13:20 <nmarques> hiemanshu, I'm a Ubuntu hater ;)
20:13:33 <rrix> ke4qqq: are we targeting new _users_ or new _contributors_
20:13:39 <rrix> stickster: you ubiquitize and not monotize
20:13:40 <hiemanshu> nmarques: *hi-fi* but if you use Google you support Ubuntu
20:13:44 <rrix> our currencty is contributors
20:14:01 <rrix> we do pretty well when people show upand knock down doors, we help them and find a place for them
20:14:09 <rrix> we don't say ubiquitize for everyone, we can't scale
20:14:25 <nmarques> we need to strenghten our known users basis
20:14:27 <rrix> we don't hav 100M$ budget, so we have to reign things in and say "we can ubiquitize this far"
20:14:34 <rrix> nmarques: yes
20:14:39 <nmarques> and we need to be far more active hitting other people as well
20:14:50 <rrix> stickster: we need to make it easier for them to find the door, and then make it easier for them to open the dorr
20:15:12 <rrix> that's what spot's mail on the f-a-b was so important, because it makes an easy on-ramp for conrtiubotrs
20:15:18 <rrix> mchua: can i strawman on how to do that?
20:15:27 <nmarques> rrix, why do you need large budgets for? Our product is digital, digital advertising is not expensive :)
20:15:30 <stickster> mchua: Postulates that people become contributors because they are asked
20:15:31 <rrix> mchua: i postulate that people want to become contributors because of two things
20:15:40 <rrix> 1) they have to be invited, either implied or stroingly given
20:15:44 <rrix> people in #fedora don't get that
20:16:03 <rrix> 2) the other is to see other peoiple being contributors.
20:16:15 <rrix> so the proposal that i have that we may be able to frame this
20:16:18 <nmarques> I think we are debatting something that should be debatted later on
20:16:30 <rrix> we have this list of people under (what can fedora do for me)
20:16:33 <yn1v> nmarques, you should note that rrix is transcribing what others on the meeting are talking
20:16:38 <rrix> the kind of people we want to clone, mizmo, lmacken etc
20:16:40 <nmarques> we have no number to demonstrate anything, at least I dont
20:17:12 <rrix> what if we took interviews, and used these to fit our four criteria for our Userbase of tomrorow
20:17:25 <GeroldKa> hy everybody ;-)
20:17:43 <spevack> hi GeroldKa
20:17:52 <ke4qqq> hi GeroldKa
20:17:54 <rrix> nmarques: sorry, I'm having a hard enough time keeping up with everone to participate in disucssion ;)
20:17:57 <rrix> moin GeroldKa
20:18:06 <rrix> I just missed all of what mchua just said, sorry folks
20:18:48 <wonderer4711> hy gerold
20:18:51 <nmarques> Apple does one thing that is nasty
20:18:58 <rrix> only one? :)
20:19:02 <rrix> Crap
20:19:16 <rrix> We're talking about _how_ does apple have so many graphic designers who are interested in using them
20:19:17 <nmarques> they provide "unofficial" leaks and feed the the press un-officially
20:19:28 <nmarques> creating speculation and testing random groups like that
20:19:29 <nmarques> ;)
20:19:45 <hiemanshu> rrix: MARKETING!
20:19:50 <rrix> nmarques: but that's got nothing to do with the present discussion :)
20:20:11 <GeroldKa> what's the topic right now?
20:20:11 <nmarques> and gathering contributors, is also selling ;)
20:20:29 <hiemanshu> GeroldKa: look for the log in /topic
20:21:07 <nmarques> rrix, it does, because actually Apple is a good example on manipulating people's minds ;)
20:21:08 <GeroldKa> thanks hiemanshu
20:21:19 <nmarques> rrix, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA
20:21:19 <hiemanshu> GeroldKa: has link to stream as well
20:21:22 <rrix> spevack and mchua have been writing on the board
20:21:26 <rrix> #who are you?
20:21:38 <rrix> #why do you fit $criteria?
20:21:47 <rrix> # what would make fedora better for you?
20:21:49 <rrix> -> CALL TO CATION
20:21:56 <rrix> # Where do people like you hang out?
20:22:08 <VileGent> ACTIOM
20:22:10 <VileGent> ACTIOn
20:22:15 <rrix> D:<<<
20:22:26 <rrix> rharrison: one thing we are not nurturing is Fedora Forum
20:22:45 <rrix> it's an awesome support medium, for example, in ubuntu has their awesome forums
20:22:48 <poelcat_> what have we decided about moving forward with a marketing plan?
20:23:05 <rrix> but our unnoficial one bascially came out of not having an official one
20:23:25 <nmarques> not having forums is good and bad at the same time ;)
20:23:26 * poelcat_ has some ideas of how to break a potential marketing plan(s) down
20:23:49 <mchua> poelcat_: go for it
20:23:52 <poelcat_> http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/paste-bin/user-base-v2.pdf
20:24:03 <nmarques> academical practice ;)
20:24:10 <poelcat_> 1) main target is the "user base"
20:24:15 <poelcat_> that is the distro
20:24:24 <nmarques> real stuff... something I want to get from Fedora ;) The real world doesn't move by "theory" :)
20:24:25 <poelcat_> 2) second marketing plan is for "the project"
20:24:51 <poelcat_> 3) another marketing plan (not high priority goal for now) is top part of triangle
20:24:55 <mchua> poelcat_: can we strike "grandma" and "aunt tilly" from the grey box? I think the other two do a pretty good job of describing, realy
20:25:09 <poelcat_> this is a *DRAFT*
20:25:09 <mchua> poelcat_: what's actionable?
20:25:19 <rrix> stickster: this comes from a bunch of talks from all sorts of people around fedora
20:25:33 <GeroldKa> to be honest poelcat, what kind of user in your eyes are the "user base"?
20:25:53 <GeroldKa> afaik we say every time: Fedora is for
20:25:59 <GeroldKa> ... DEVELOPER
20:26:05 <GeroldKa> not for user; right?!
20:26:10 <rrix> the thing we need to remember when we do that "who are you, etc, call to action, bla" the CALL TO ACTION has to be filtered through the userbase thinger, so taht we are not overtly tightening our userbase and making our goals too narrow
20:26:43 <rrix> just because we don't TARGET someone doesn't mean that it is something that they CANNOT do, not that we DON"T WANT you, but that you aren't someone that we are expecting
20:27:01 <rrix> (i am missing things :|)
20:27:11 <mchua> rrix: call for backup ;)
20:27:15 <rrix> mchua: hallllp
20:27:17 <rrix> :)
20:27:17 * hiemanshu has to leave now, its saturday morning, /me has to go to the lake as always
20:27:22 <rrix> bye hiemanshu
20:27:28 * wonderer4711 waves
20:27:31 <rrix> ke4qqq: can you take over for a few?
20:27:32 <hiemanshu> bye rrix :) Have fun
20:27:43 <hiemanshu> s/saturday/sunday
20:27:58 <rrix> rharrison: one thing that all four user bases have in common is that they all want to _do_ something
20:28:19 <stickster> poelcat_: people are looking at the diagram you just sent and using that to help integrate their understanding of the "user base of tomorrow"
20:28:25 <rrix> anything that we highlight we need to translate into a productive accomplishment
20:28:37 <poelcat_> GeroldKa: that is what some people say and is the top part of the triangle... i disagree they should be our "sole target"
20:28:38 <rrix> if we talk about a feature, we need to talk about what it lets us do _nd then_ the feature itself.
20:28:47 <rrix> rharrison: "expanded talking points"
20:29:04 <GeroldKa> +1 @ poelcat
20:29:14 <rrix> rharrison: so we have these uesrs, now we need a strategy to get these people involved
20:29:21 <GeroldKa> I personally totaly disagree with that saying
20:29:26 <rrix> we have a strategy, now we have to define action items
20:29:39 <poelcat_> EXACTLY re: shotgun comment
20:29:43 <mchua> GeroldKa: what saying?
20:29:47 <mchua> what shotgun comment?
20:29:49 * mchua struggling to keepu p
20:29:51 <poelcat_> i'm suggesting breaking problem down and focusing on each section
20:29:58 <rrix> stickster: just wrote on the board "strategy for talking to the user base of tomorrow"
20:30:03 <GeroldKa> becaue of every distribution right now is far away to be a "kick in the ass" if you install it
20:30:11 <poelcat_> s/each section/the sections we intend to
20:30:14 <rrix> VileGent: can we go back to the four foundations on how to do this?
20:30:32 <mchua> VileGent: regarding your question of "do we need a marketing plan?" I say "Mel needs to understand what the heck we are doing for F13/F14," and whatever we call that, it's what will help me be useful.
20:30:34 <rrix> stickster: at this point "no" they haven't even seen what our community does
20:30:41 <rrix> we need to get them that "gateway drug" first
20:30:47 <rrix> "Freedom" does not sell
20:30:49 <ke4qqq> stickster: how do we get them the gateway drug
20:30:50 <GeroldKa> you can mostly install and use every distribution with a 12 - time klicki thing and have it on your computer
20:31:02 <rrix> rbergeron: you could take that to the libertarian convention
20:31:06 <rrix> laughs all around
20:31:19 <nmarques> you sell fedora through >> Friends // Communication ;)
20:31:52 <rrix> stickster: somewhere in the center of our target user base, there are folks that _love_ the freedom part of it, but it's a small group. to everyone else it's irrelevant, it's not a selling point because they want to DO something
20:32:05 <rrix> rharrison: rbergeron: freedom doesn't help me at the end of the day
20:32:16 <rrix> stickster: writes "1) emphasis what we enable yo to do"
20:32:26 <GeroldKa> :-)
20:32:27 <ke4qqq> I think that we are doing a great job of 'marketing' to free software types
20:32:45 <GeroldKa> why ke4qqq ?
20:32:48 <ke4qqq> and that gets back to the problem of non-mktg types doing our mktg
20:32:57 <poelcat_> mchua: good critique re: gray box... any others?
20:32:59 <rrix> spevack: and mchua return to the "Whoare you",etc questions. Be _very_ specific. Why do you use Fedora as a python developer?
20:33:20 <rrix> stickster: we need to take specific people an dhammer home these points
20:33:27 <rrix> a few fedora developers went to pycon
20:33:45 <mchua> "/how/ do you use fedora as a python developer?" get people to envision what it would look like for them to do the same.
20:33:55 <rrix> most of the popel there were NOT runnign fedora, there was an exteremely small fedora populace
20:33:58 <rrix> most were on ubuntu
20:34:07 <rrix> and this is means that we ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG
20:34:13 <rrix> because we are losing developers
20:34:25 <rrix> spevack: we are f___ed, basically, parodn my language
20:34:47 <rrix> rharrison: talking to luke, how does having this feautre in Fn+1 make your job as a python developer easier?
20:35:04 * nmarques "and God at the 7th day made the Remington rifle... so that Men could fight the Dinossaurs... and ubuntu users"
20:35:12 <rrix> #idea Talk to $developer, have them explain why a particular feature makes their lives easier
20:35:15 <ke4qqq> #talking to dave malcolm about how $foofeatures makes job as py dev easier
20:35:19 <ke4qqq> #idea  talking to dave malcolm about how $foofeatures makes job as py dev easier
20:35:20 * stickster notes this is not "Fedora vs. Ubuntu."
20:35:31 <rrix> rbergeron: talking about contributor podcast...
20:35:37 <rrix> GOOD IDEA STUFF
20:35:41 <nmarques> stickster, it's a direct competitor, it will always be a fight...
20:35:42 <mchua> nmarques: I don't want to fight Ubuntu users. I have a lot of friends who use Ubuntu, or some other distro.
20:35:49 <stickster> We need to identify where we are doing poorly, learn from others, and grow
20:35:52 <rrix> stickster: sorry, I didn't mean to imply that, was hurrying :)
20:35:57 <stickster> rrix: No problem
20:35:58 <mchua> They're good, smart people who just have different criteria for what they want to use, that's all.
20:35:59 <rrix> nmarques: no, we are working together.
20:36:06 <stickster> I was just being explicit about it
20:36:14 <stickster> rrix: We are *sort of* working together
20:36:18 <rrix> Non-free software is our competotr
20:36:21 <stickster> We all work on open source.
20:36:22 <rrix> or how you spell that.
20:36:29 <stickster> To different degrees, we respect software freedom.
20:36:55 <nmarques> stickster, that line of thought is dangerous, but I will respect it
20:36:56 <stickster> But we are doing this with the end goal of promoting our philosophy about how open source and free software should work, and our philosophy is different.
20:36:59 <rrix> rbergeron: a lot of times people are installing fedora because someone else gave it to them
20:37:20 <rrix> they install from a livecd that a friend gives them, it may be missing software that will help them make their lives easier
20:37:33 <rrix> Whoopsie goldberg, that's bad, we need to tell people how to find _NEW_STUFF_
20:38:13 <rrix> rharrison: spevack: You see either 1) people saying "this is crap it's missing $foo" or 2) people biulding from source because they don't know about yum
20:38:14 <nmarques> stickster, we should treat our competitors as worst enemies, no matter what (that's something I believe). If I went to open a company with you, for contractual purposes I would treat you as my worst enemy, predicting everything, despite of we being the best of friends. Same stuff
20:38:32 <nmarques> stickster, doesn't mean I'll shoulder my G3 and start shooting people :)
20:38:44 <poelcat_> new version of the picture: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/paste-bin/user-base-v3.pdf
20:38:56 <rrix> ke4qqq: the taret spins help us touch some of these groups who aren't kernel hackers; we have the design suite, FEL, ETC
20:39:14 <mchua> thanks, poelcat_!
20:39:22 <mchua> poelcat_: what are you making this in?
20:39:34 <poelcat_> mchua: keep the ideas for improvement/refinement coming... now or later
20:39:36 <rrix> chitlesh has done awesome marketing on FEL without our help, and he has done the ideal of what we had hoped were the original goals of the spins project
20:39:36 <stickster> looks like oo.o draw
20:39:40 <poelcat_> mchua: oodraw
20:39:57 <mchua> poelcat_: I'll ask for source at the end of the day or whenever you stop tweaking it
20:40:02 <mchua> for more remixin' and great justice
20:40:13 <stickster> rbergeron has added a new line to the "strategy for talking to the user base of tomorrow" on the board
20:40:21 <stickster> 2. consolidation of support/forums/questions/education
20:40:26 <rrix> ke4qqq: we should put the spins on peoples hands, so that designers see designer stuff, infosec folks get security spin, etc
20:40:47 <rrix> KDE/XFCE/GNOME aren't so important, they don't help you do stuff. Maybe in a different manner, but to do the same stuff
20:40:52 * poelcat_ still isn't clear how we answered the question of "go forward plan with marketing plan(s)"
20:40:59 <mchua> nmarques: I must respectfully disagree. Some of the people I've learned the most from - my best friends - are my best friends *because* we compete. My sparring partners.
20:41:03 <mchua> poelcat_: Yeah, me too.
20:41:09 * rrix too :)
20:41:11 <stickster> poelcat_ We have a growing list of "strategy for talking to the user base" that I think is part of that go-forward plan
20:41:20 <stickster> poelcat_ It's developing on the board as we go
20:41:23 <poelcat_> got it
20:41:35 <stickster> poelcat_ It's not at the detail level of the previous plan
20:41:36 <nmarques> mchua, we are talking about different things I think
20:41:48 <stickster> poelcat_ Which may be a very good thing, especially since no one ever refers to the old one that I'm aware of.
20:41:53 <stickster> (at least not nowadays)
20:41:59 <spevack> poelcat_: i'm not sure that the question has been answered.
20:42:00 <rrix> mchua: can you transcribe baoard->gobby?
20:42:06 <stickster> rrix: I can
20:42:06 <mchua> nmarques: To treat them as competitors, sure - to use them as an inspiration to push myself harder, get another perspective of what's going on - yes. To try and best them, absolutely; that can be super-fun. But to treat them as my enemies, not so much. We go head-to-head, but then we sit down and talk about what we learned from doing that.
20:42:07 <rrix> board
20:42:09 <rrix> stickster: danke
20:42:16 <poelcat_> stickster: my new picture has the focuses of a plan I was thinking
20:42:20 <mchua> nmarques: Ok - I'm not sure what you're talking about, then.
20:42:21 <poelcat_> AUDIO JUST DROPPED
20:42:30 <poelcat_> i'll re-call in see if that fixes it
20:42:41 <nmarques> mchua, I'm talking about if we want to promote something, our thing, all the rest is our competitor
20:42:48 <rrix> rharrison: most [people say with the livecd can only broawse the internet
20:42:55 <poelcat_> that fixed it
20:42:59 <rrix> oh okay
20:43:15 <nmarques> mchua, doesn't mean we have to be agressive towards them in a harmful way, but we should consider them as a competitor and treat them as such
20:43:16 <rrix> but with the livecd being NOT livecd, we can ship ooo and other Cool Stuff to Get Things Done
20:43:45 <mchua> nmarques: what does it mean, "treat them as a competitor?"
20:43:54 <nmarques> mchua, at least on a stategical point
20:43:56 <rrix> mchua: we should spend time sitting with users saying here is Fedora, have fun tell me what happens
20:44:03 <nmarques> mchua, do you play chess ?
20:44:29 <rrix> <talk aobut notification areas FAIL and not being seen>
20:45:53 <nmarques> mchua, means that if you want to promote Fedora and gather more people, since we're aiming for people inside of the linux universe, means that we might have show how Fedora is superior for development compared to other distributions
20:46:02 <nmarques> mchua, you can work with Novel, Canonical, etc
20:46:36 <nmarques> mchua, but from a product point of view, you need to show that Fedora provides more and better than OpenSuSE and Ubuntu
20:47:05 <rrix> ke4qqq: we should highlight (with videos, etc) of Fedora helping to _doing_thigns_
20:47:08 <nmarques> mchua, yeah you can work with them, but don't be shy or ingenuous... because they are snatching users from us :)
20:47:30 <rrix> tatica's GIMP podcast, mo's Fedora features video, inkscape tutorials, etc
20:47:44 <rrix> nmarques: I think that is a really negative view, friend.
20:47:51 <rrix> s/negative/narrow/
20:47:53 <mchua> nmarques: and we can snatch ideas right back. :) that's the beauty of open.
20:47:58 <rrix> exactly.
20:48:11 <nmarques> rrix, negative?
20:48:16 <rrix> nmarques: narrow, sorry
20:48:20 <nmarques> rrix, narrow ?
20:48:47 <mchua> nmarques: I'm much more a Go person than a chess one, but yeah.
20:49:02 <nmarques> mchua, chess imposes one basic thought ;)
20:49:19 <nmarques> mchua, every move your opponent does, you need to unravel whats behind of it
20:49:34 <nmarques> mchua, and you need to try to be 3 or 4 moves ahead of him
20:49:48 <nmarques> mchua, if you want to win
20:50:23 <nmarques> mchua, everything has a purpose :) Google advertised for freedom and sold the concept
20:50:29 <rrix> nmarques: that's just it, to win we don't have to 'beat' ubuntu, we have a different target (and goal) than Ubuntu.
20:51:04 <nmarques> rrix, on the short run, yes, on the long run... be careful with what you are thinking
20:51:30 * rrix is too busy being careful keeping up with transcribing, we can talk later :)
20:51:47 <rrix> and FAILing
20:51:53 <mchua> yn1v, you've been pretty quiet today - what are you thinking?
20:52:04 <mchua> other than "wow, that was a long plane ride" :)
20:52:10 <rrix> we're talking about consolidating the support stuff right now,
20:52:31 <mchua> rrix: where does fedora-tour fit into this discussion?
20:52:31 * nirik reads backscroll.
20:52:32 <rrix> SEO, etc, to get Fedora stuff pushed up in the searches for support
20:52:39 <rrix> mchua: hell, gee
20:52:47 <yn1v> mchua, It a look of info to diggest
20:53:01 <rrix> mchua: Fedora-tour would probably have a big HEY HERE YOU GO TO GO GET HALP page, with all the support options.
20:53:02 <mchua> yn1v: I"m also having a really hard time keeping up with all the convo
20:53:17 <nirik> I'd love to see a shortcut/support app that launches a irc client and connects, or opens to the forum or sends a mail to user the mailing lists.
20:53:18 <rrix> but listening to this discussion it seems there's probably a better way
20:53:26 * mchua trying to interrupt people, get us on the same page
20:53:40 <rrix> nirik: yeah
20:53:41 <mchua> rrix: talk out loud too :)
20:53:45 <rrix> ABRT ingegration?
20:53:47 <poelcat_> can someone restate the focus of our current discussion?
20:53:49 <mchua> rrix: I'll jump back on transcription
20:53:58 <mchua> poelcat_: okay, it looks like enough of us are confused
20:53:59 * poelcat_ is lost
20:54:02 <nirik> or, ideally, takes them to whatever registration/signup they need FIRST, then connects them to the support.
20:54:05 * mchua calls a time-out
20:54:14 <rrix> mchua: you do better anyways
20:54:50 <poelcat_> mchua: or said another way "what problem are we trying to solve now?"
20:55:16 * mchua called time-out
20:55:59 <mchua> rharrison, recapping: "People who are looking for answers on how to make Fedora work for them should be able to find them."
20:56:05 <mchua> poelcat_: there's your problem :)
20:56:16 <mchua> stickster: Now how does that become part of the actionable mktg plan?
20:56:31 <poelcat_> mchua: and how does solving this problem working into the larger discussion about marketing plan?
20:56:49 <mchua> yn1v just mentioned some links of awesome - Neville, can you dump those into the channel?
20:56:50 * poelcat_ not connecting the dots :)
20:56:55 <yn1v> http://proyectofedora.org/colombia/?p=1006
20:57:14 <mchua> poelcat_: I will ask.
20:57:18 * mchua is a Mel of Little Brain
20:57:24 <spevack> rbergeron: http://easylifeproject.org/
20:57:41 * nirik shudders
20:57:51 <spevack> nirik: yeah
20:57:53 <nmarques> guys
20:57:58 <nmarques> regarding this being debated
20:58:15 <nmarques> isn't there in the forge a project for something like a "FEdora cook book" ?
20:58:15 <rrix> easylife :/
20:58:20 <spevack> nirik: came up as an example of "we see all sorts of people spreading ways that Fedora works for them"
20:58:20 <nmarques> a field manual ?
20:58:31 <mchua> yn1v: We're getting into tactical stuff now.
20:58:38 <poelcat_> so... one part of the marketing plan needs to be ways to address not losing new users right away?
20:58:41 <mchua> nmarques: ...is there?
20:58:55 <nmarques> mchua, yeah, that's not the name but I saw something on the wiki about that
20:59:01 <mchua> nmarques: can you dig up the link?
20:59:05 <mchua> I"d love to see any prior work in that direction
20:59:12 <nirik> spevack: yeah, it's had issues in the past with messing peoples systems up. Might be ok now. It also glosses over educating people... "here, install all this stuff fedora doesn't distribute for good reason"
20:59:34 <rrix> nirik: has it really?
21:00:06 <nirik> yeah, along with 'aten' and some other one...
21:00:12 <rrix> mchua: 2 questions
21:00:19 <rrix> 1) who's transcribing :D
21:00:40 <stickster> poelcat_ Yes I believe that's where we're trying to get.
21:00:53 <spevack> nirik: i've just downloaded the srpm and i'm looking through it
21:00:57 <poelcat_> stickster: yay, i'm back on track :)
21:01:23 <rrix> 2) looking at this and figuring out what we want to do, we talked about amb being tactical, marketing being strategic, let's create something in the next 1:45 to create some suggested line items to say "you guys are on the ground, go do $foo"
21:01:45 <rrix> spevack: we should walkt out in 1.5h and find the five areas that we need to be addressing
21:01:54 <rrix> right now we have one, maybe two
21:02:33 <rrix> VileGent: bring up nirik's 21:59 ( nirik) spevack: yeah, it's had issues.....
21:02:39 <rrix> and i missed the discussion :(
21:03:13 <rrix> mchua: there's got to be a discussion of what we can do to give ambassadors the materials to show up and have a presence at EVERY FOSS vent
21:03:16 <rrix> event
21:03:27 <rrix> and getting statistics, and getting things done
21:03:36 <rrix> VileGent: is that strategy or implementation
21:03:38 <nmarques> mchua, can't find it because I don't remember the designation used, but I'll look into it later on when I have a bit more of spare time
21:03:53 <rrix> rharrison: if we have presence at these events, we attract LIKELY CONTRIBUTORS
21:03:58 <rrix> oops
21:04:00 <rrix> rbergeron: ^
21:04:31 <rrix> So, we can get these LIKELY CONTRIBUTORS from the floor at the events, say "you can do this in fedora" and send them home witha  livecd
21:04:43 <rrix> rharrison: this is where brand recognition comes in
21:05:48 <rrix> mchua: coming back to the bullseye/target metaphor, we need to have the ambassadors tweak the direction the arrow goes each time it's shot, to target the users the best
21:06:06 <rrix> mchua: so our plan should be how do we construct the ways that they tweak the direction
21:06:45 <rrix> stickster: no, not yet. when most people are writing a tool of some kind, the idea is that a tool will some day become a generalized library. you start with implementation, then pull out the parts that will be generalized, and clean it up and turn it in to a library
21:07:18 * inode0 would like to know how effective events really are at attracting new contributors? It seems to him obvious most of our target is not at such events and we should find *new* ways to get in touch with those targets.
21:07:31 <rrix> befoe we get to the point that we start offering marketing as a service for docs, or XYZ spin, or... we have to be able to solvebly execute ourselves on a deliverables for the strategy that we are desigin
21:08:02 <rrix> inode0: is absolutely right
21:08:15 <mchua> rbergeron: is it more important for us to get contributors, or users who might become such?
21:08:24 <mchua> rharrison: we get contribs from our user pool.
21:08:29 <rrix> for example, rharrison came from RHEL looking for something to run on his desktop
21:08:34 <mchua> inode0: +1 to your comment btw
21:08:40 <poelcat_> rharrison: that illustrates the triangle
21:08:45 <rrix> wonderer4711: *thumbsup*
21:08:49 <mchua> inode0: also, I would say what you are asking is a "we need to do market research on this"
21:08:54 <poelcat_> rharrison: you were in the "user base"
21:09:18 <rrix> stickster: we're basically riding the coattails of RHEL, because to people using it, they're already sold, the difficulty of eplaining it to them is NIL
21:09:23 <inode0> we need market research and new ideas outside the arena of traditional events for ambassador activity
21:09:40 <rrix> we are going after the egg, let's go after the chicken instead. We need to reach further than contributors in our marketing efforts
21:10:29 <rrix> rharrison: instead of finding new contributors, we kept current contributors.
21:10:38 <mchua> rbergeron: How much of this stuff becomes actionable when we start talking about surveys we should be running?
21:11:05 * inode0 is looking to marketing to help him identify these *new* ways ambassadors can do their jobs :)
21:11:13 <rrix> inode0: +1
21:11:26 <rbergeron> +2 :)
21:11:33 <mchua> inode0: how does this analogy work for you - marketing:ambassadors::QA:devel ?
21:11:44 <rbergeron> mchua: english plz :)
21:11:50 <mchua> just as a random analogy that I can already find broken things with? ;)
21:11:50 <rbergeron> oh
21:11:51 <rbergeron> i see
21:11:55 <mchua> rbergeron: marketing is to ambassadors as QA is to development
21:11:59 <rbergeron> bringing me back to those entrance exams
21:12:09 <inode0> mchua: I don't really spend any time worrying about the relationship between ambassadors and marketing
21:12:24 <inode0> ambassadors don't do what was suggested earlier
21:12:35 <mchua> rbergeron: QA says "here's the target we're aiming at and we're constantly checking how far we are from hitting it - here's where we're off, here's how we're doing" and development goes "wooo we'll fix it, *fixyfixyfixy*
21:12:35 <inode0> marketing so do this, ambassadors go do it
21:12:41 <inode0> that isn't how things work
21:12:51 <rbergeron> mchua: i'm not sure. i think surveys should be (a) validating who we think our users are, (b) asking how they got involved.
21:13:06 <rbergeron> seeing how we can replicate those experiences
21:13:12 <mchua> rbergeron: marketing *could* be "ok, you folks said you wanted to paint this target on the wall... you're shooting at it... you're 3 inches too high, 4 feet to the right... ooh, that shot was great!" and the ambassadors are going out there and shooting the actual arrows
21:13:13 <rbergeron> find out where they had roadblocks
21:13:32 <mchua> inode0: no, marketing wouldn't dictate the target, it would remind ambassadors of the target *they* said they wanted to hit
21:13:38 <mchua> much like poelcat_ reminds us of the schedules we ourselves have set
21:14:17 <rrix> stickster: one other thing is having marketing take a hand in the work of, fedora-tour as an example, whether that or something else post-install, making sure that the information matches all the other work we're doing in marketing
21:14:29 <inode0> and I don't really care if it is marketing that identifies new ways for ambassadors to reach contributors, but that seems like a likely group to help with that
21:14:32 <poelcat_> mchua: that's the best part of it... if you don't like it, it wasn't mine, I just wrote down what you wanted :)
21:15:05 <inode0> mchua: marketing could have been doing that but I don't think it has been
21:15:28 <mchua> poelcat_: exactly. that's why we can't complain too much. :D
21:15:47 <mchua> inode0: could have been, sure. hasn't, yes. how about should be?
21:15:57 <nmarques> Guys regarding Fedora Tour
21:16:05 * inode0 doesn't know
21:16:05 <mchua> rrix just explained how the entire reason he got involved in Marketing was to make sure his fedora-tour work was aligned with it.
21:16:08 <nmarques> are being based on a previous version ?
21:16:17 <rrix> mchua: at first anyways :)
21:16:25 <rrix> nmarques: no, it's fresh
21:16:29 <mchua> nmarques, fedora-tour's first version is still under development by rrix and co
21:16:31 <inode0> ambassadors are now used to having a wide berth to do their work
21:16:38 <rrix> #link http://fedorahosted.org/fedora0-tour
21:17:08 <nmarques> mchua, http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_11_tour ?
21:17:12 <nmarques> mchua, to ignore ?
21:17:24 <rrix> nmarques: my link
21:17:29 <rrix> gah!
21:17:30 <rrix> #undo
21:17:31 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x285f6990>
21:17:44 <rrix> #link http://fedorahosted.org/fedora-tour
21:17:44 <rbergeron> mchua just walked out
21:17:45 <rrix> FAIL
21:18:32 <rrix> kay, theres this whole new list of stuff i haven't transcribed
21:19:00 <rrix> 1) educate, inform the voluntary switchers easy to find answers to questions, highlisght spins that show unique uses
21:19:18 <rrix> 2) Build bridges, <stickster's head>
21:19:42 <rrix> support, feedback from users to developer, get right questions from devs to ask users, build positive dev support
21:20:10 <rrix> stickster: right now we have a real problem that we should have more feedback form users to developers in certain ways
21:20:59 <rrix> we have mailing list, bug, microblog, irc, etc, and the overwhelming content of those is NEGATIVE. think about how that would affect you if that is all you got for > 8 hours a day
21:21:25 <rrix> Free software culture is a gift culture, and all the feedback you get is "HEY THIS IS REALLY AWESOME YOU ROCK" you never hear from those people
21:22:03 <rrix> that is why most developres are a little reclusive
21:22:25 <wonderer4711> stickster: build bridges = inner marketing ; spread the brand = outer marketing
21:22:56 <rrix> stickster: we need tobuild ways for positive developer support
21:23:03 <rrix> in the near future I'll talk about idea
21:23:16 <rrix> #idea stickster has idea for positive developer support TALK ABOUT IT LATER
21:23:17 * nirik notes #fedora-social is open to all users/developers to chit chat about more general life topics and mingle. ;)
21:23:25 <rrix> nirik: and baconz :)
21:24:54 <mchua> nmarques: Ah - that's a different thing. There's the "Fedora Tour release deliverable," which was a screenshot-walkthrough of a Fedora release - that's been replaced by one page release notes.
21:25:21 <mchua> nmarques: then there's fedora-tour, which is a software application that rrix and others are developing - completely different thing, confusingly similar names (except one is now dead, and the other is quite alive).
21:25:34 <rrix> hiemanshu, franciscod, thomasj and i
21:25:39 <rrix> subfusc
21:26:25 <rrix> ke4qqq: you talked a bit about the vast feeback to be negative; do we respond to those? There are 7-8 folks with access to @twitter, should we talk back?
21:26:42 <mchua> nmarques: Thanks for pointing out the name confusion, though. That may be something the fedora-tour team might want to address.
21:26:43 <rrix> rharrison: maybe as @user, not @fedora.
21:26:51 <rrix> VileGent: I think a lot of people are just griping
21:27:05 <rrix> rbergeron: but we don't want people to just feel like they're griping for nothing
21:27:37 <rrix> stickster: if we let them go unanswered it says one of a few things 1) we don't hear you 2) we don't care 3) we care but can't help 4) we know, we see you but don't like you
21:27:46 <rrix> none of them are GOOD answers though.
21:28:01 * mchua points out that we have one hour left.
21:28:05 <mchua> and that we have not talked about research.
21:28:08 <mchua> (aka surveys)
21:28:20 <rrix> mchua: change gear times?
21:28:24 <mchua> rrix: possibly.
21:29:13 <nmarques> mchua, I have to bail out, got something I must attend in real life
21:29:29 <nmarques> mchua, I've mailed a suggestion through email for upcoming events regarding communication
21:29:33 <nmarques> mchua, :)
21:29:56 <nmarques> mchua, If you can please email again the logs to the list so I can take a closer look when I return.
21:30:54 <rrix> don't worry, we will
21:31:09 * nmarques mumbles
21:31:12 <nmarques> ;)
21:31:14 <mchua> Thanks for coming, nmarques!
21:31:23 <mchua> rbergeron: asking how we can prioritize the things on our various lists.
21:31:29 <nmarques> mchua, I will msot like be tomorrow here all day
21:31:33 <mchua> stickster: <need help summarizing>
21:31:38 <mchua> nmarques: yay! Tomorrow is brand book day.
21:31:40 <rrix> mchua: yeah, trying :|
21:31:58 <nmarques> mchua, check mumble out and if we can use it ;)
21:32:03 <rrix> stickster: WE HAS MARKETING PLANZ
21:32:14 <nmarques> mchua, then I can be more participative... I've got too low audio ;)
21:32:18 <rrix> It's four points, rrix wrote two earlier and got distracted with pwnies
21:32:18 * mchua going through the list at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010#Deliverables
21:32:48 <rrix> 1) educate: Inform the voluntary switchers easy to find answers to questions highlight spins that show unique use cases
21:33:15 <rrix> 2) Build bridges: support, feedback users-> developers, questions from devs to users, build positive deave support
21:34:08 <rrix> 3) spread the brand: ZOMG 4F's! Sucecess stories, examples of each, ambassadors, communiate to focused audiences: dsign schools, CS depts, downstream confs; social networking
21:34:31 <rrix> 4) Build on-ramps: Tour, easyfix, eng services queue, how to file a bug wiki page
21:34:36 <rrix> _ETC_
21:35:00 <rrix> spevack: would like to spend 10-15m to decide what we want from the RH folks tomorrow morning
21:35:10 <rrix> mchua: plz2describe the RH folks :)
21:35:20 <rrix> spevack: Chris Grahams, John Adams, Jonathon <something>
21:35:23 <mchua> Chris Grams, John Adams, and Jonathan Opp are the people who are coming tomorrow.
21:35:30 <mchua> They are the people who do this stuff for Red Hat.
21:35:30 <rrix> guys who built and spread Red hat's brand more than anyone else
21:35:32 <rrix> mchua: YOU ROCK
21:35:47 <mchua> rrix: sorry, I'm being redundant, backing off now :)
21:35:51 * nmarques off
21:35:54 <GeroldKa> Red Hats Brand ........ right!
21:36:27 <rrix> how they made their marketing plan, how can we apply it to Fedora; their classical business plans, and translate that to Fedora's community plans
21:36:30 <rrix> etc
21:36:40 <rrix> let's make sure they we can have a clear idea of what we want from them
21:36:48 <rrix> spevack: maybe i just said it :)
21:36:58 <rrix> they will be here 10am
21:37:21 <rrix> rharrison: the biggest thing would be a feedback loop, and determining their talking points, aka HOW DID THEY DO THAT
21:37:43 <rrix> stickster: a followup point to max; to me we have a section of time marked off, we've obviously run over our time for all the things we've to do today
21:37:47 <mchua> BANANA PUDDING being passed out YAY!
21:38:17 <rrix> in the interest of finishing deliverables, my personal opinion is that surveys are omportant, but i am more interested in finishing the framework stuff than making any progress on sruvey stuff
21:38:54 <rrix> not because it sin't important, but we are to the point where we can make the framework done and knock out any deliverables that fall out of it in the next 30-45 are important
21:39:33 <rrix> VileGent: are we in agreement that the Marketing plan rrix spewed out on irc is a good one?
21:39:37 <rrix> <resounding yes>
21:39:49 <rrix> <comments about AWESOME bananapudding from lunch>
21:39:58 <rrix> (and it is)
21:40:33 <rrix> we can at least throw this at the RH folks tomorrow, and not feel embarassed and they can help us flesh it out more, because they've already done it
21:40:45 <poelcat_> yes, great discussion and progress
21:40:46 <rrix> yn1v: when we thinkg about marketing usually, we look at how it was in the past, now and in the future
21:41:00 <rrix> what we need is a "North" the direction we are heading. This plan is good for that
21:41:16 <rrix> we may adjust it a bit when we have better surveys, but in a general sense it's a good direction
21:41:35 <rrix> mchua: DELIVERABLES TIEM
21:41:40 <rrix> we have most of the parts of most of them
21:41:49 <rrix> the rest of the parts for the ones who aren't done is pretty clear
21:41:54 <poelcat_> "pick a direction and start moving! and course correct along the way" I like it :)
21:42:12 <rrix> #action mchua F12 post mortem cleanup
21:43:10 <rrix> #action paul and robyn and are gonna make a template for marketing post mortem, and general PM
21:43:57 * poelcat_ has to sign off for today.. looking forward to the "possibilty" of joining tomorrow... feel free to irc or email if I can help with something specific
21:44:11 <rrix> poelcat_: Okay! Glad you could be here today
21:44:22 <poelcat_> me too :)
21:44:39 <rrix> poelcat_: rbergeron gives you round of applause
21:44:41 <poelcat_> lol
21:44:42 <poelcat_> :)
21:44:43 <poelcat_> thank you
21:44:46 * wonderer4711 waves
21:44:48 <rrix> thank YOU
21:45:04 * poelcat_ will keep logging as 'poelcat'
21:45:21 <rrix> #action rrix MARKETING PLAN wiki page, planet post and marketing post
21:46:40 <rrix> #action yn1v rbergeron Goals/Braindump consolidation of pages
21:47:10 <rrix> #action spevack writing a blog post about two different types of spins: strategic v. cosmetic
21:47:49 <rrix> #action NO ONE (for now)  attracting marketing contributors plan
21:49:08 <rrix> #action rbergeron to create prelim survey stuff for tomorrow or monday for the RH gurus
21:49:37 <rrix> #info survey stuff being delayed until Tomorrow evening for LATE NIGHT HAPPY FUN TIME
21:50:34 <rrix> #action ke4qqq nail down happy fun hacking survey packaging fun time
21:51:21 <rrix> #action wonderer4711 media posting, and get everyone to post blag posts and whatnot
21:52:10 <rrix> #action rharrison follow up on wonderer4711's harassments ;)
21:52:38 <rrix> #undo
21:52:39 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x2871af50>
21:52:47 <rrix> #action rharrison clean up the FAD wiki page
21:53:21 <spevack> #action EVERYONE read the Red Hat Story pdf
21:53:38 <spevack> #link http://mspevack.fedorapeople.org/red-hat-story.pdf
21:53:56 <rrix> spevack: thanks for the reminder ;)
21:54:13 <wonderer4711> rrix: :)
21:54:38 <rrix> #action VileGent CHANNEL NINJA
21:55:43 <quaid> Hey FAD, I ended up getting looped in to a trip to Berkeley, I'm en route right now and working on Teaching Open Source textbook
21:55:54 <rrix> woo!
21:55:56 <mchua> Thank you everyone for putting up with "mel walks through our deliverables" time :)
21:56:06 * mchua 's simple little mind is happy now
21:56:23 * wonderer4711 dancing the pony dance under the disco ball
21:56:36 * wonderer4711 do the official Fedora dance ;-)
21:56:41 <rrix> \o/
21:57:08 <rrix> spevack: lists qusetions for the red hat brand folks
21:58:36 <rrix> 1) How did you determine the fundamentals of the RH brand? What was that process like? How long did it take? Is it at a steady state now?
21:58:52 <rrix> 2) What is the fedora brand, IYHO?
21:59:58 <rrix> 2.1) Do the 4F's make sense? What should we consider when growing the fedora brand?
22:01:13 <inode0> Do the 4 F's make sense to the people who enhance the Fedora brand? :)
22:01:41 <rrix> 3) What is the relationship between Branding + Marketing?
22:01:58 <stickster> inode0: Was that a serious question?
22:02:03 <rrix> inode0: is that a question to ask them, or us :)?
22:02:05 <inode0> yes, actually
22:02:20 <stickster> inode0: Who are the people to whom you refer?
22:02:23 <inode0> I think it is more important that contributors get it than anyone else
22:02:25 * stickster looking to establish context
22:02:29 <rrix> 4) How do you measure the success of a brand?
22:02:39 <stickster> inode0: That's not a question for the RH Brand guys though
22:02:56 <stickster> That definitely *is* a question any Fedora Branding guidance should be able to answer.
22:03:08 <rrix> 5) How do you massage a brand?
22:03:08 <inode0> No, it was a question to you guys to keep in mind when they say no, the 4F's don't make sense to them
22:03:16 <stickster> inode0: Well, of course :-)
22:03:26 <stickster> If we can't answer it, we have a big problem
22:03:34 <stickster> But that's why pages like [[Foundations]] exist
22:03:46 <stickster> I'm interested in hearing the questions *they* ask without having read those pages
22:04:04 <stickster> And if we can answer them readily, then I would say the answer to your question is, "At least some of them do."
22:04:15 <stickster> And if "some" is not big enough, we need to continue to (1) Educate
22:04:30 * stickster points back at new skeleton marketing plan for the "(1) Educate" part
22:04:43 <rrix> 2.05) Do the Foundations make sense? Do they provide a strong foundation?
22:04:53 <rrix> (underlined and starred)
22:05:36 <rrix> 5.5) Does that change in a many-voices community? (how do massage a message)
22:05:45 <rrix> grah
22:05:59 <rrix> 5.5) Does that change in a many-voices community setting v. a buesiness setting? (how do massage a message)
22:06:19 <rrix> 1.9) Where di the RH "brand book" stuff come from ?
22:07:09 <rrix> 6) What questions do you have for us?
22:07:34 <rrix> 2.2) How does Fedora's brand fit into RH's brand strategy?
22:08:06 <rrix> Now that my numbering has made everyone's heaed explode...
22:08:41 <inode0> I would like to know their opinion of this question: "Where does Fedora's brand value come from?"
22:08:49 <rrix> 6.1) What things can we play with in Fedora-land for you (maybe if people are interested?)
22:09:39 <quaid> for 1.9, how do you mean "come from"?  How was it generated?
22:09:49 <quaid> and have you all seen ianweller's work on the Fedora Brand Book?
22:09:57 <inode0> What things enhance the brand's value
22:09:57 <mchua> inode0: relaying your question to the board
22:09:59 * quaid hasn't in a while
22:10:00 <mchua> question(s)
22:10:37 <rrix> inode0: spevack: from the community, a bunch of folks sitting around here with a RH'r and coming up with it
22:10:38 <mchua> quaid: yes.
22:10:44 <quaid> I recommend Chris Grams' blog to all Fedora Marketeers
22:11:02 <rrix> yeah, and the last many posts from Chris Grams
22:11:19 <rrix> quaid: #link?
22:11:20 <inode0> we have that view, I'm curious if people involved in this sort of business see it that way too
22:11:21 <mchua> Remotees ( inode0, quaid, et al)  - we're using the time before 10am tomorrow to set up steraming
22:11:24 <mchua> er, steraming
22:11:25 <stickster> rrix: Thanks -- specifically, it was a bunch of various Fedora community folks, facilitated by someone in Red Hat who knew how to lead a design thinking session
22:11:25 <mchua> STREAMING
22:11:31 <quaid> word
22:11:36 <stickster> That's how we came up with [[Foundations]] and the concepts underpinning them
22:11:36 <quaid> steam!
22:11:46 <mchua> steaming too!
22:11:48 * mchua wants dumplings
22:11:53 <rrix> OMNOM
22:11:56 <quaid> e.g.
22:12:00 <quaid> #link http://darkmattermatters.com/2009/03/02/fedora-fails-and-thats-a-good-thing/
22:12:20 <mchua> Remotees - is there anything we could do to make your participatory lives easier tomorrow?
22:12:25 <quaid> #link http://darkmattermatters.com/feed/
22:12:26 <mchua> We tried real hard today, but it was spotty.
22:12:34 <quaid> you all did good by me
22:12:49 <mchua> quaid: but we could do better, I'm sure.
22:12:52 <quaid> better than most @RHT :_
22:13:30 <inode0> I found eavesdropping valuable, if the sound volume could be bumped or made a bit more consistent that would be nice
22:14:02 <quaid> +1
22:14:05 <rrix> inode0: noted
22:14:16 <rrix> #info tomorrow make volume louder/more consistent
22:14:18 <rrix> #undo
22:14:19 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x2b6f94ff8c50>
22:14:22 <rrix> #info tomorrow make volume louder/more consistent for streaming
22:15:25 <mchua> ke4qqq: expressing his wish that the long mailing list threads had heard our convo today - a lot of things got expressed more clearly here than they have been in emails
22:15:36 <mchua> mchua: how do we bring this conversation to these threads?
22:15:44 <mchua> rharrison: right now we only have a start
22:15:46 <mchua> (maybe we can't yet?)
22:15:51 <quaid> is anyone looking at doing an etherpad setup?
22:15:57 <mchua> quaid: not afaik
22:16:17 <mchua> stickster: can you transcribe?
22:16:18 <quaid> I presume one day it will be packaged but I wonder how hard it would be to cook one up in a pt# or EC2
22:16:22 <mchua> (or someone?)
22:16:43 <mchua> rrix, you and I need to be more up-front about getting more people than the two of us to scribe tomorrow ;)
22:16:55 <rrix> mchua: +1 :)
22:17:05 <quaid> word
22:17:11 <quaid> what about ...
22:17:16 <quaid> some signs in the room that remind about remoteness?
22:17:19 <quaid> "Slow down, speak up"
22:17:25 <quaid> "describe with your words not just your hands"
22:17:28 <rrix> +1
22:17:30 <quaid> etc.
22:17:32 <mchua> quaid: oh, I can do that!
22:17:41 <mchua> #action mchua make sure we have "REMEMBER THE REMOTEES" signs tomorrow
22:17:44 * mchua goes to make them now
22:17:52 <rrix> quaid: etherpad would be fun
22:18:11 <rrix> I just wonder the juxtaposition between it and gobby
22:18:20 <quaid> rrix: I was way happy with etherpad
22:18:34 <rrix> in the most general terms, it's just gobbyweb right?
22:18:47 <quaid> not sure, it may have more
22:18:57 * rrix will play with the one KDE set up
22:19:00 <quaid> it tracks edits and has a nice playback interface
22:19:09 <rrix> oh
22:19:18 <quaid> seeing a full edit session run as a quick video is neat
22:27:37 <mchua> We're closing for the day.
22:27:51 <mchua> quaid: "REMEMBER THE REMOTEES" signs are up on 3 out of the 4 walls of the room now.
22:27:55 <mchua> We'll see how well that works. :)
22:28:13 * inode0 slinks off to do something not nearly as fun as going to a hockey game
22:28:14 <mchua> I'm going to close the logs for tonight.
22:28:19 <mchua> #endmeeting