14:39:45 <mchua> #startmeeting
14:39:46 <zodbot> Meeting started Sat Mar 13 14:39:45 2010 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:39:48 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
14:39:56 <mchua> And let me just chair everyone who's in the room...
14:41:10 <heffer> i heard that there are restrictions on the hotels internet
14:41:30 <mchua> morning poelcat!
14:41:34 <poelcat> hi
14:41:39 <poelcat> what is the conf #?
14:41:56 <mchua> poelcat: I don't believe we have that up yet, but when Max returns I'll ask him to start the call.
14:42:02 * mchua does not have magic call-startin' powers
14:42:19 <poelcat> we aren't using fedora talk?
14:42:26 <mchua> #chair stickster wonderer ke4qqq yn1v poelcat heffer quaid
14:42:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid stickster wonderer yn1v
14:42:32 <mchua> #chair rharrison
14:42:32 <zodbot> Current chairs: heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison stickster wonderer yn1v
14:42:33 <heffer> i tried to setup a vpn for fedora contributors once but noone wanted to give me a Fedora CA signed cert for my vpn server
14:43:08 <quaid> "Fedora -- ssh tunneling is good enough" :D
14:43:14 <mchua> (people who were just chaired, feel free to chair other people, I'm just doing a rough glance round the room and who's been talking so far)
14:43:19 <mchua> #topic morning startup
14:43:25 <mchua> #chair PhrkOnLsh
14:43:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison stickster wonderer yn1v
14:43:34 <heffer> quaid: i recommended dnstunnel.de
14:43:41 <mchua> We're still doing the "Everyone, get on wireless, get on IRC, call starting up, etc. etc." phase of things.
14:43:45 <mchua> Also, there are donuts.
14:43:58 <ke4qqq> poelcat: 2004
14:44:11 <heffer> I'm on the A3 highway near W├╝rzburg right now
14:44:34 <heffer> i'd like some donuts :)
14:44:38 <rrix> moin moin!
14:44:45 <heffer> or alternatively some beef jerky
14:44:47 <heffer> moin
14:47:56 <mchua> Max is going over the in-person logistics - how to get around the RH office (to drinks, coffee, etc.)
14:48:11 <mchua> #chair rrix
14:48:12 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua poelcat quaid rharrison rrix stickster wonderer yn1v
14:48:26 <rrix> mchua: sorry ;)
14:48:40 <poelcat> ke4qqq: dead air on 2004
14:48:41 <rrix> dunno HOW MANY times I have to change that blasted config entry before my name sticks
14:48:43 <rharrison> Thanks guys made into the room
14:48:53 * ke4qqq assumes you didn't hear that poelcat ??
14:49:02 <poelcat> nada
14:49:09 <rrix> :(
14:49:23 * poelcat suspects asterisk is br0k3n
14:49:43 <rrix> haha
14:50:02 <poelcat> yay
14:50:20 * quaid is lurking and hopes not to cause echoing on the call
14:50:40 * mchua has just asked for assistance understanding ze phone - if folks can either repeat important points in person so I can lipread them, or take quick notes in the channel, it'd be much appreciated.
14:50:58 <mchua> We are set up to have a somewhat ridiculously overdocumented FAD. 4 blog posts and we haven't even started, and Henrik's been taking pictures since last night.
14:51:02 <mchua> This is good. :D
14:51:46 <rbergeron> and all the blog posts are about ponies and waffles
14:51:57 <rrix> OMNOM
14:52:01 * rrix chews a wafflez
14:52:20 <mchua> pwnies!
14:52:53 <rrix> WAFFLEZ
14:53:14 <quaid> not to dwell on it, but should I be hearing anything on the conf line right now?
14:53:37 <ke4qqq> quaid: yes
14:53:43 <spevack> quaid: we are talking
14:53:44 * quaid hates his setup
14:53:52 <spevack> we can hear someone moving around
14:53:53 <ke4qqq> we hear quaid
14:53:53 <mchua> Paul has just asked people on the phone to introduce themselves.
14:54:00 <quaid> just like last time I used it it's all dead for me
14:54:02 <mchua> Welcome to the channel, VileGent.
14:54:18 * rbergeron waves
14:54:21 <spevack> quaid: I just verified that it worked from my mobile phone
14:54:34 <VileGent> we hear a mic moving
14:54:42 <quaid> my mic is muted
14:54:57 <VileGent> so you can hear us quaid
14:55:02 <quaid> nope
14:55:06 <quaid> all dead to me
14:55:07 <rbergeron> poelcat
14:55:11 <rbergeron> are you doing some ... work?
14:55:15 <spevack> WE HEAR YOU
14:55:16 <ke4qqq> we can hear you
14:55:17 <spevack> karsten!
14:55:19 <VileGent> yes we can hear you
14:55:21 <quaid> oh, well, that's fun
14:55:24 <spevack> someone's moving their furniture around
14:55:26 <rbergeron> manual labor, or something
14:55:30 <spevack> "moving the furniture"
14:55:36 * poelcat is on mute
14:55:41 * quaid is sitting still and put his mic back on mute
14:55:41 <quaid> oh
14:55:43 <mchua> To repeat Paul's request of people on softphones - please mute your setup when you're not talking.
14:55:44 <quaid> onboard mic
14:55:53 <spevack> someone is being drowned in a bathtub
14:55:55 <mchua> Someone's doing a drum circle.
14:55:58 <rrix> Sounds like someone's getting beat up ;)
14:56:08 <heffer> lol
14:56:11 <mchua> All quiet on the western front now.
14:56:15 <ke4qqq> silence
14:56:19 <quaid> I'm going to give up on the call, I can never get the stupid on board mic to not do that
14:56:21 <heffer> too bad i can't use a phone atm
14:56:22 <quaid> that was me typing, sorry
14:56:34 <stickster> Yeah, on board mics suck.
14:56:37 <mchua> quaid: Transcribing of ridiculousness will be done.
14:56:39 <stickster> quaid: Expense a USB headset.
14:56:40 <poelcat> what about running the web stream so that people who are just lurking can be RO ?
14:56:43 <quaid> stickster: I have one
14:56:55 <quaid> I'll try USB instead of the analog ports
14:57:08 <stickster> quaid: Yeah
14:57:14 * spevack suggests that people just call in with their mobile phones.  It is the weekend -- free minutes :)
14:57:18 <spevack> since we know that setup works
14:57:22 <mchua> We probably should actually get started in the next few minutes.
14:57:34 <heffer> spevack: international calls are never free :)
14:57:44 <spevack> heffer: yeah... I meant quaid and poelcat.
14:57:48 <spevack> heffer: you can't hear us either?
14:57:53 <poelcat> silence
14:57:58 <heffer> i can't use a phone atm. i'm in the car
14:58:06 <mchua> quaid, is that you? We heard a noise.
14:58:11 <spevack> poelcat: try your mobile?
14:58:21 <quaid> yeah, I tried to connect but usb isn't happy
14:58:28 <heffer> i wouldn't hear too much anyway due to the noise of the wind
14:58:29 <poelcat> spevack: i'm on land line
14:58:33 <mchua> "this conference call is now being streamed"
14:58:38 <mchua> Where is it being streamed?
14:58:40 * spevack is utterly confused
14:58:45 <stickster> The stream is now here: http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl
14:58:54 <mchua> #link http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl
14:59:00 <wonderer> I'm also in... finaly ;-)
14:59:01 <mchua> David is putting that link on the wiki page.
14:59:09 <heffer> we're driving back from ski holidays with a jetbag mounted to the roof
14:59:12 <quaid> I heard a rumor that #link isn't neccesary anymore
14:59:20 <rbergeron> sounds terrible!
14:59:26 <rbergeron> pesky ski holidays
14:59:28 <heffer> i'll try the streaming
14:59:32 <mchua> quaid: we'll find out after today's logs then :)
14:59:33 <poelcat> spevack: is the conf room on mute?
14:59:54 <rbergeron> we don't think so
14:59:56 <spevack> poelcat: it shouldn't be, because i heard them through my mobile phone
14:59:58 <rbergeron> paul is checking
15:00:07 * quaid is trying the stream
15:00:16 <rbergeron> they're redialing currently
15:00:30 <pcalarco> hi all, pcalarco is here, remote
15:00:32 <heffer> WE GET SIGNAL!
15:00:34 <rbergeron> helloooo
15:00:54 <stickster> OK, all good here again
15:00:55 <wonderer> hello
15:00:56 <wonderer> yes
15:01:04 <quaid> ah, there's the stream!
15:01:09 <rbergeron> aye
15:01:11 <rrix> yayyy!
15:01:12 <rbergeron> there's the stream.
15:01:16 <rbergeron> poelcat?
15:01:16 <stickster> poelcat: Can you hear us?
15:01:18 <rbergeron> can you has hear
15:01:21 <quaid> and reverb :)
15:01:21 <pcalarco> brief sounds from outer space, then silence
15:01:29 * rrix headdesks
15:01:49 <ke4qqq> pcalarco: over the stream or via fedora talk
15:01:54 <rbergeron> watch the forehead
15:01:54 <mchua> MAIN SCREEN TURN ON
15:01:58 <mchua> #topic FAD START!
15:01:58 <rbergeron> poelcat?
15:02:03 <rbergeron> can you hear usssss
15:02:14 <mchua> Max is talking, I'll transcribe.
15:02:28 <pcalarco> ke4qqq: silence over stream now
15:02:31 <mchua> spevack: We've got lots of people here from all over the world
15:02:32 <poelcat> i hear line noise on the stream and the phone
15:02:40 <mchua> Thank you for coming out from so far away, and on a weekend too.
15:02:56 <poelcat> very low, so i know i'm connected, but no 'people audio'
15:03:03 <mchua> It's an interesting time to have a Marketing FAD - if we look at both the internal and external conversations,
15:03:15 <mchua> we've got debates that have been raging for a year on f-a-b list on what Fedora is, our target audience, etc.
15:03:20 <mchua> These are all marketing questions.
15:03:41 <mchua> What an update policy should look like, etc... that's also marketing - because you design policies like that based on goals you're trying to achieve with the project.
15:03:46 <rrix> hey Rex!
15:03:49 <rbergeron> hi rdieter
15:03:54 <mchua> We have an interesting opportunity that maybe we don't well as we could
15:03:56 * rdieter waves
15:04:05 <mchua> separating the messages about Fedora-the-distro and Fedora-the-project
15:04:15 <mchua> rdieter: hey Rex, welcome! I'm livetranscribing, Max is talking now.
15:04:25 <mchua> Max: other distros are perhaps more focused on the kinds of users they want.
15:04:41 <mchua> We have discussions on whether we're attracting devs, which seems to be our main focus, but is that what we want to do?
15:04:57 <heffer> stream is silent. can anyone confirm that?
15:05:01 <mchua> The interesting thing about getting together f2f like this is - we want to make sure we have as much transparency as possible
15:05:09 <mchua> documenting work, showing work
15:05:13 <rbergeron> hhhwho dat
15:05:14 <mchua> *HORRIBLE NOISE ON PHONE LINE*
15:05:17 <pcalarco> heffer: audio now on stream
15:05:21 <heffer> yup
15:05:26 <mchua> #chair pcalarco rdieter
15:05:26 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster wonderer yn1v
15:05:28 <heffer> someone on the toilet?
15:05:29 <spevack> sounds of someone flushing their cocaine down the toilet before the FBI busts in
15:05:29 <mchua> welcome folks :)
15:05:38 <mchua> ..um, yes
15:05:39 <rbergeron> sexy.
15:05:41 <wonderer> heffer: do not flush the toilet ;-)
15:05:50 <rrix> wonderer: lol
15:05:51 <heffer> i can't. i'm in a car
15:05:54 <heffer> :)
15:05:57 <mchua> Max reminding people that documenting EVERYTHING is uberimportant
15:06:01 <quaid> ok, my experiment with voip is done for the day
15:06:04 * mchua will periodically call for people to spell her off
15:06:10 <wonderer> heffer: nice try ;-)
15:06:24 <mchua> "It's like math class - you can get partial credit if you show your work."
15:06:39 <mchua> Max: in marketing, we simplify and amplify.
15:06:45 <mchua> this is particularly important b/c of the global nature of our message.
15:07:36 <stickster> mchua sez, keep the information flowing
15:07:54 <stickster> Transcription to continue here, blogs to the Planet, et al.
15:08:02 <mchua> Aaand Max and Mel are done, and Robyn takes the floor. This is ROBYN DAY
15:08:08 <mchua> #topic introductions
15:08:18 * poelcat don't meant to harp on this.... audio: stream and phone (land line--called in again) is not working
15:08:26 <quaid> yep
15:08:30 <mchua> People in the room just went around and said their names.
15:08:30 <rrix> :(
15:08:36 <quaid> I'm dialed via cellie and it's not giving us love
15:08:37 <stickster> poelcat: Yeah, not sure if I can fix it without disruption at this point
15:09:00 <mchua> And now Robyn takes it away.
15:09:09 <VileGent> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraEvents
15:09:19 <VileGent> any changes on schedule??
15:09:27 <rrix> I just heard /something/
15:09:31 <mchua> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing_FAD_2010#Day_1_.28Saturday.2C_March_13.29
15:09:35 <mchua> that's today's agenda
15:10:06 <stickster> The mic appears to be on here, and we can hear when people's mics on the other side are on
15:10:21 <spevack> can any of the people who *hear us* try to talk?
15:10:24 <poelcat> no
15:10:33 <mchua> poelcat: I think rbergeron is going to want to ask you some questions in a moment.
15:10:35 <poelcat> is the speaker phone bad?
15:10:44 <poelcat> steal one from another room?
15:10:47 <spevack> poelcat: we're trying intercall
15:10:51 <spevack> poelcat: the speakerphone works
15:10:59 <mchua> Folks, we're hanging up x2004 right now
15:11:00 <poelcat> :)
15:11:01 <spevack> we are hanging up -- standby for a new dialin number
15:11:02 <quaid> I suspect it's our asterisk
15:11:14 <heffer> please update the stream too
15:11:15 <spevack> heffer: we'll be able to get you a local number also
15:11:32 <mchua> *temporary pause as Paul fiddles with the phone again*
15:11:49 <heffer> spevack: i'd prefer the stream
15:11:52 <heffer> but thanks
15:11:59 <spevack> heffer: i don't think the Intercall setup can stream.
15:12:04 <spevack> dial-in info -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Community_Architecture_meetings
15:12:08 <stickster> But we have international dial-ins available
15:12:09 <mchua> Aaaand... checking ze phone....
15:12:12 <stickster> where is heffer located?
15:12:17 <heffer> germany
15:12:18 <spevack> germany
15:12:21 <stickster> heffer: Hang on and I'll PM you the info
15:12:24 <spevack> there's a german toll-free number on there
15:12:28 <spevack> on the link above
15:13:03 <spevack> quaid, poelcat, inode0, heffer -- https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Category:Community_Architecture_meetings
15:13:35 <rrix> most be the mic here
15:13:43 <quaid> yep, I hear john and me
15:13:48 <quaid> yep, phone set is broken!
15:13:49 <rbergeron> we have microphone fail.
15:13:59 <spevack> *local debugging*
15:14:04 <spevack> we know it works for poelcat and quaid
15:14:08 <spevack> we can hear you guys talking to each other
15:14:09 <VileGent> we hear both of you
15:14:15 <quaid> ha
15:14:16 <VileGent> hold on
15:14:46 <rrix> word, my inbox just got deleted AGAIN
15:14:48 <quaid> "A signal takes 10 hours to come from Raleigh but .2 sec to reach Raleigh; is it in another dimension? Discuss."
15:15:21 <quaid> yes, I hear now
15:15:21 <rrix> Hooray!
15:15:41 <quaid> are those the remote mic pluggies that sit on the desk?
15:16:07 <mchua> Microphones have been discovered!
15:16:08 <quaid> ok, you all can go back to it now
15:16:28 <quaid> the mic is picking up fine
15:16:34 <quaid> not sure you have to talk directly in to it
15:16:38 <wonderer> I love to see how geeks make telephone thingys working and crawling around ;-)
15:16:50 <mchua> rharrison is using his camera tripod so we can mount the mic in the center of our table-circle...
15:16:58 <quaid> can someone about 10' from the mic talk? we can confirm sound here
15:17:40 <quaid> I hear
15:17:46 * quaid is going to remain muted
15:18:05 <quaid> spevack: sounds great
15:18:17 <quaid> thanks folks, these are the keys :)
15:18:45 <quaid> your choice
15:18:55 <spevack> we're going back to Fedora Talk.
15:18:57 <spevack> PEACE OUT
15:19:00 <mchua> Everyone in the channel, we're swapping back to x2004
15:19:02 <mchua> for talk
15:19:05 <mchua> er, fedora talk
15:20:05 <mchua> MIC SETUP WORKS!
15:20:09 <pcalarco> yay!
15:20:18 <rrix> k :^)
15:20:25 <heffer> YAY
15:20:26 <VileGent> f12 post modem
15:20:31 <mchua> #topic F12 postmortem
15:20:35 <mchua> post modem? :)
15:20:36 <heffer> PWNIES!
15:20:57 <mchua> Robyn: We're doing an F12 postmortem discussion so we can talk about what we did right, wrong, etc.
15:21:07 <mchua> This is my first full cycle, so it's hard for me to compare to past efforts.
15:21:12 <wonderer> heffer: http://www.braincache.de/wp/2010/03/02/fedora-ponies-dancing-under-the-disco-ball/
15:21:26 <mchua> If anyone's around who can give us a comparison, that would be teh awesum
15:21:47 <mchua> #info we're making a postmortem SOP so that we can more easily look back on a release cycle at the actual end of each release.
15:21:54 <mchua> spevack offers to talk about ancient history for a bit.
15:22:06 <mchua> Max: I can talk back to F5, the first release I worked on.
15:22:23 <mchua> When we got close to release for F5, there were a few people who basically wrote lots of release note type stuff for us.
15:22:34 * inode0 confirms stream is now working
15:22:41 <mchua> We had an F5 release summary page on the wiki that was a list of highlights.
15:22:43 <mchua> And that was abouti t.
15:22:53 <mchua> And that was all F-mktg did for a while.
15:23:15 <mchua> So we fell into a pattern where the FPL would get set up with interviews by RH PR and the rest of it was what /. posted and that was about it.
15:23:22 <mchua> And all the f-mktg team did was collect links.
15:23:31 <mchua> So looking from that to what we have now, there's been a lot of progress.
15:23:45 <mchua> The things that make me happy to see, which are very new...
15:23:48 <mchua> audio interviews, feature profiles
15:23:48 <rrix> moin Justin
15:23:53 <mchua> hey threethirty, inode0!
15:23:56 <threethirty> hey ryan
15:23:58 <mchua> #chair threethirty inode0
15:23:59 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer inode0 ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster threethirty wonderer yn1v
15:24:10 <mchua> We're just getting started. I'll pull up the backlog link.
15:24:27 <mchua> Max: We've started doing videos, too - one thing we're doing during this FAD is making F13 vids
15:24:55 <mchua> inode0, threethirty: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/
15:25:12 * quaid has his USB headset working "right" now and will try to dial in with his mic muted; onboard mic should be mute but ... tell me if you hear my echoing and typing and I'll fall back to cellie dial in
15:25:12 <mchua> Max: we need to make sure our message syncs up with what Ambassadors deliver at events.
15:25:18 <mchua> quaid: ok
15:25:44 <mchua> Max: I think the mktg team produces a lot of material, but I don't know how much we got that out to Ambassadors.
15:25:52 <mchua> Robyn: I don't think we did much of that either.
15:25:58 * mchua shakes head in agreement
15:26:17 <mchua> Paul: notes that the mktg schedule has a March 30 item for briefing Ambassadors on the upcoming relaese.
15:26:31 <mchua> David: There used to be a requirement that Ambassadors needed to be part of Marketing.
15:26:40 <mchua> Marketing == strategy, Ambassadors == tactical.
15:26:47 <mchua> The two groups used to be largely the same thing.
15:26:56 <mchua> And I think a lot of the disconnect is that everyone used to be in both places.
15:27:04 <mchua> Paul: It was a much smaller group in those days.
15:27:09 <mchua> So there were only a few dozen ambassadors.
15:27:10 * threethirty is in both
15:27:44 <mchua> Max: There was frustration, because Ambassadors wanted to JUST GO to an event and DO STUFF but Marketing people said "but we have to have a plan" and Ambassadors said "uh, we'll figure it out when we get there"
15:28:04 <mchua> so Ambassadors was created because it was a simple, actionable goal to say "we want a Fedora presence in every FOSS event in the next year"
15:28:15 <mchua> and solve that problem separately from what that vision/presence actually looked like.
15:28:42 <mchua> VileGent: There used to be so much cross-linking of ambassadors and mktg stuff that I dropped out of mktg
15:28:55 <mchua> rbergeron: do you think everyone dropped out?
15:29:00 <mchua> VileGent: Back then, I think that did happen
15:29:13 <mchua> stickster: So the idea might not be to get everyone in Ambassadorland back on Marketing.
15:29:17 <mchua> But there should be some connection.
15:29:31 <mchua> Or leverage the connections we already have, like FAmSCo
15:30:17 <mchua> FAmSCo can keep mktg in the loop on Ambassadors and what they're doing, perhaps?
15:30:43 <mchua> ke4qqq: seems like around the F10 timeframe we talked about having mktg produce slidedecks for us.
15:30:49 <mchua> I think we ended up making some generic stuff.
15:30:51 <mchua> spevack: we made talking points.
15:30:55 <mchua> and said "make your own slidedeck."
15:31:17 <stickster> #idea Making a briefing slide deck out of the talking points and possibly other important info
15:31:17 <mchua> rbergeron: *points out we don't have a shiny slides  template, and people ask for that*
15:31:40 <mchua> #idea sync with FAmSCo as a way of strengthening the mktg <--> ambassadors comm link
15:32:48 <mchua> #idea have a joint mktg/ambassadors meeting once or twice a week on IRC
15:33:03 <stickster> #undo
15:33:04 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Idea object at 0x285a6a10>
15:33:10 <mchua> #idea have a joint mktg/ambassadors meeting once or twice a release on IRC
15:33:13 <mchua> whoopsie.
15:33:16 <mchua> thanks stickster.
15:33:18 * stickster gots mchua's back
15:33:55 * mchua asks if we want to focus specifically on F12
15:34:09 <rrix> We have an ideas board and a "things that we should fix in F13 tiem" board
15:34:12 <mchua> rbergeron: sez yes
15:34:22 <mchua> stickster: starts the "go around the table and share your F12 perspective" circle
15:34:29 <mchua> stickster: F12 was uber-ambitious from the mktg standpoint.
15:35:02 <mchua> We did a much better job of figuring out and adhering to a schedule of tasks than we ever had before.
15:35:06 <mchua> YAY poelcat!
15:35:10 <mchua> we had a list of deliverables we wanted to hit
15:35:17 <mchua> and a lot of people contributed to those deliverables.
15:35:24 <mchua> rbergeron: was that the first schedule attempt?
15:35:26 <spevack> #link http://www.redhat.com/ --> lulz @ outage
15:35:29 <mchua> stickster: it was the first time we had due dates
15:35:42 <mchua> stickster: before it was just "what we want to do by alpha, between alpha and beta, etc"
15:35:45 <mchua> but f12 had actual dates.
15:35:54 <mchua> spevack: just the notion of having a specific schedule == w00t
15:36:06 <mchua> stickster: To me, from where I sit, the teams that have done that in general
15:36:13 <inode0> spevack: scheduled maintenance window today ... gimme 5.5 :)
15:36:16 <mchua> who are able to work up a schedule and produce those deliverables
15:36:29 <mchua> have consistently done better at making those deliverables happen.
15:36:42 <mchua> The pressure of a schedule - as long as it's self-inflicted - it's a great incentive.
15:36:48 <mchua> It's not something that can be externally imposed.
15:36:57 <mchua> The board can't come down and say "marketing, here are your due dates"
15:37:02 <mchua> it's a volunteer project, it's not a corporation
15:37:08 <mchua> so the fact that the team comes up with these dates == uberimportant
15:37:12 <mchua> we produced more raw material than ever before
15:37:16 <mchua> we did a one-page shiny release notes
15:37:22 <rrix> spevack: Fail :)
15:37:27 <rrix> (at outage)
15:37:28 <mchua> which was THE SINGLE BEST NEW WIKI PAGE that we had in a year
15:37:50 <mchua> It was a much better projection of our core values and the way we portrayed ourselves than we've ever done in the pst.
15:38:58 <mchua> We need to do a better job of portraying Fedora - making clear how it's relevant to a user's life.
15:39:15 <mchua> Another thing we did right: hitting the quantity, and eventually we hit the quality
15:39:22 <threethirty> there is life outside of Fedora? mchua surely you gest
15:39:24 <mchua> though it would have been nice to see the quality hit more steadily.
15:39:53 * spevack tries to figure out if there's a way to see the wiki's most viewed pages
15:40:01 <spevack> curious to know if the F12 one page release notes shows up
15:40:50 <mchua> stickster: the in-depth interviews were tl;dr
15:40:53 * mchua thinks that was probably hers
15:40:54 <quaid> spevack: there is but it may not show up on [[Special:Special pages]]
15:41:35 <rrix> mchua: I read tham :)
15:41:37 <rrix> them, even
15:41:38 <mchua> stickster: it wasn't a problem with the quality of the work
15:41:43 <mchua> it was like another 15% of the way that we needed to go.
15:41:44 <ke4qqq> VileGent: TA?
15:41:49 <spevack> VileGent: TA?
15:41:52 <mchua> TA?
15:41:56 <mchua> wha?
15:42:05 <rrix> quoi?
15:42:06 * ke4qqq points to the right of the sunday lunch
15:42:07 <VileGent> target audience what the stuff we are produceing
15:42:20 <mchua> stickster: if we need to do this more incrementally, pushing it through, say, alpha phase more steadily
15:42:27 <mchua> stickster: one more point I wanted to make
15:42:34 * inode0 thinks most people view talking points as more relevant to interviews & general talks rather than booth discussions - so most ambassadors probably don't spend a lot of time on them
15:42:41 <mchua> stickster: there's still a lack of clarity between mktg and docs on who does stuff like release announcements.
15:42:58 <spevack> inode0: i use them when i need to give the "what's new in Fedora" talk
15:43:07 <spevack> because I want to talk about the "right" things
15:43:14 <mchua> There's probably an opportunity there we aren't taking to do <something I missed, anyone in the room?>
15:43:28 * mchua would like to thank threethirty for the alpha release notes fu of AWESOME
15:43:31 <mchua> for f13
15:44:03 <mchua> welcome, hiemanshu!
15:44:05 <mchua> #chair hiemanshu
15:44:05 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer hiemanshu inode0 ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster threethirty wonderer yn1v
15:44:10 <rrix> moin hiemanshu !
15:44:14 <mchua> hiemanshu: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/
15:44:16 <threethirty> mchua: ty but rbergeron did a lot of work too
15:44:22 <mchua> and thank you to rbergeron as well!
15:44:27 <mchua> yay teamwork!
15:44:43 * poelcat wonders if there could be a style/content guide template thing for the release announcements?
15:44:44 <mchua> stickster: I really think we have - we have a list of things we produce over the course of the cycle that are repetitive.
15:45:04 <ke4qqq> poelcat: there's a style guide generally - but don't think there is aone specifically for release announcement
15:45:14 <ke4qqq> s/aone/one/
15:45:14 <mchua> But we may not have outlined a specific purpose in mind for all the documents we're making.
15:45:29 <mchua> ke4qqq: can you relay inode0 and poelcat's in-channel comments to the room?
15:45:32 * mchua transcriby
15:45:40 <ke4qqq> yep
15:45:58 <mchua> stickster: we need to be clearer about the purpose of our deliverables so we don't get lots of redundancy of work
15:46:00 <threethirty> a style guide would be helpful for release announcemnets as a first timer it was a little overwhelming, there isnt a lot of info at all on how to do it.  I was just told "make it look like the last one"
15:46:09 <poelcat> ke4qqq: including a background section that is clear about who the release announcement is targetting and what it should accomplish
15:46:17 <hiemanshu> Hello mchua rrix
15:47:04 <mchua> #idea make use of new F-Eng services queue
15:47:11 <quaid> there is about a 5+ sec delay on the stream v. the voip btw
15:47:15 <mchua> welcome etank!
15:47:20 <etank> hi mchua
15:47:31 * etank is just going to lurk for a bit :)
15:47:49 <mchua> ke4qqq is relaying inode0 and poelcat's comments to the room
15:47:52 <mchua> ke4qqq: can you throw in threethirty's too?
15:48:04 <inode0> quaid: beyond your local buffering?
15:48:06 <mchua> #idea clarify purpose of various announcements/notes (and audience)
15:48:16 <mchua> etank: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/
15:48:24 <mchua> all comments from the channel are getting relayed to the physical room thanks to David
15:48:25 <quaid> inode0: unsure, can't tell
15:48:39 <inode0> I suspect it is just buffering
15:48:59 <mchua> #idea link tracking and other tools to help figure out what to eliminate and what to keep
15:49:48 <ke4qqq> #idea need to fix background about audience and purpose of each of the release announcements
15:50:15 <mchua> stickster: When jounalists interview me, they want a RH person to talk about Fedora. More often than not, the journalist has already looked at the talking points and the feature list.
15:50:19 <mchua> #chair ianweller
15:50:19 <zodbot> Current chairs: PhrkOnLsh heffer hiemanshu ianweller inode0 ke4qqq mchua pcalarco poelcat quaid rdieter rharrison rrix stickster threethirty wonderer yn1v
15:50:22 <mchua> welcome, ian!
15:50:23 <rrix> moin i
15:50:24 <ianweller> hai
15:50:25 <ke4qqq> ianweller: can we get stats on wiki pages - for instance the alpha announce page?
15:50:26 <mchua> ianweller: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/
15:50:30 * rrix pouts
15:50:33 <ianweller> oh god everyone wants me
15:50:45 <mchua> stickster: these deliverables are getting used by pro journalists, but are they getting used by the community? bloggers, etc?
15:50:46 <ke4qqq> sucks to be popular huh ianweller
15:50:47 <ianweller> ke4qqq: which page is that
15:51:06 <spevack> ianweller: we are wondering if mediawiki can tell us how many views a particular page has received.
15:51:08 <ke4qqq> ianweller: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Alpha_Announcement
15:51:13 <ke4qqq> for instance
15:51:14 <ianweller> it can.
15:51:21 <mchua> stickster: in the context of F12, I'd give a B+
15:51:22 <ke4qqq> ianweller: can you tell us how
15:51:30 <ianweller> i don't know why it's not in the footer. hmm!
15:51:33 <ke4qqq> rbergeron promises to document on the wiki if you impart
15:51:35 * ianweller looks at the api real fast
15:51:37 <mchua> rharrison: one of the things I missed from past releases are things like media/posters
15:52:28 <stickster> #idea Future marketing deliverable: poster for a USB filling station to be used anywhere by anyone
15:52:58 <mchua> rharrison: the other thing - press kits, how did they go for F12?
15:52:59 <ianweller> ke4qqq: https://fedoraproject.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=info&titles=Fedora%2012%20Alpha%20Announcement
15:53:09 <ianweller> ke4qqq: see 'counter'
15:53:09 <ianweller> i think
15:53:24 <mchua> stickster: we had a "press materials" page
15:53:29 <ianweller> (i'm fairly certain that's it. lemee go confirm)
15:53:38 <ke4qqq> ianweller: awesome!!!
15:53:49 <mchua> stickster: I work with RH PR on the press kit stuff
15:53:58 <ke4qqq> just for kicks, it had ~13.5k views
15:54:32 <mchua> Some journalists are tech-savvy, some aren't.
15:54:50 <mchua> We'll never get 100% coverage with press kis.
15:54:51 <mchua> kits.
15:55:03 <mchua> the kit is simple - "how do you use this gadget (liveusb) we just sent you?"
15:55:16 <ke4qqq> ianweller: does memcached sit in front of mediawiki - how does that effect stats?
15:55:25 <mchua> but the fundamental purpose is not to market Fedora or glam it up for journos, it's to give them the facts they need to start it up
15:55:35 <mchua> and if there's anything important they need when they start it up, that's what we need to tell 'em.
15:55:41 <quaid> ke4qqq: only for http, yep
15:55:41 <ianweller> ke4qqq: i really have no clue
15:55:48 <stickster> mchua is going to talk now
15:55:57 <ianweller> ke4qqq: best way to get stats would be to grep the proxy logs
15:56:07 <quaid> ke4qqq: yes, we might want to get those cross-ref'd with apache stats
15:56:10 <heffer> my experience with press kits was that most german magazines wouldn't use them
15:56:13 <stickster> mchua's only goal for F12 marketing was to get someone who knows more about marketing into the Marketing team
15:56:33 <rrix> I'll take pix of the pictures
15:56:34 <stickster> heffer: Right, these are not really intended for magazine publication, but for background for journalists who are going to conduct an interview
15:56:59 <stickster> i.e. try the product and then understand what it is -- an operating system with N features and X capabilities
15:57:20 <stickster> mchua: We moved on to establishing some SOPs and schedule adherernce
15:57:33 <stickster> F14 is where we're going to be testing a lot of what we're developing for F13
15:57:51 <stickster> mchua hypothesizes we don't have a lot of marketers in marketing because the tools we're using are still extremely technical -- IRC for instance.
15:58:21 <rrix> #link webchat.freenode.net <-- Easy to use, we should promote this for our contributors?
15:58:38 <stickster> rrix: Right on, we should use that for links in the wiki
15:58:39 <rrix> That's the lowest entry point for irc methinks
15:58:59 <rrix> It's on the meetings page, we just don't talk it up
15:59:07 <yn1v> Nelson from Portugal was complaining about not good at wiki editing (another technical blocker for people trying to help marketing)
15:59:09 <stickster> mchua moves on to things we didn't do quite as well
15:59:11 <quaid> #idea use webchat.freenode.net/#channel for links on the wiki to encourage lower entry access
15:59:28 <stickster> yn1v: Good point, mchua just mentioned the wiki as another barrier that seems low to us but may not be as low as we thinkg
15:59:31 <stickster> *think
15:59:34 <rrix> #idea openoffice.org mediawiki exporter to also lower barrier
15:59:55 <quaid> heh, that sounds like a higher barrier to me :)
15:59:58 <rrix> (save as MediaWiki text is useful for such things :) )
16:00:07 <stickster> mchua sez, docs/design/ambassadors coordination is still not what it should be
16:00:07 <ke4qqq> rrix: does that ship by default - or is that a plugin?? and thus another barrier?
16:00:16 <rrix> qu	hmm?
16:00:30 <rrix> ke4qqq: I /think/ it's a default save-as target
16:00:30 <stickster> mchua sez, still depends on a couple rockstars swooping in and polishing what we produce, not very scalable yet
16:00:37 <rrix> lemme grep around
16:00:41 * ke4qqq goes to look
16:00:52 * ianweller will be around, highlight me if you'd like me to see something... attempting to clean up some of my room...
16:00:57 <rrix> ke4qqq: save-as or export, not sure
16:01:15 <stickster> mchua sez, Tools are still a blocker, and Fedora Insight and survey software are going to be important. Leverage engineering service to help this
16:01:35 <ke4qqq> rrix: it is indeed in there by default
16:01:40 <rrix> yay!
16:01:54 <rrix> NOTE: it won't work for editing, only new pages
16:02:07 <rrix> ianweller: is your little mw thinger still being developed on?
16:02:25 <rrix> (I remember reading you were working on a CLI mediawiki client)
16:03:47 <ianweller> rrix: yeah. i was working on the 'mw commit' command last night and started watching the KU game instead
16:03:48 <ke4qqq> rrix: I thought it was a fuse plugin - so you could use vim (or $footexteditor) locally
16:04:00 <ianweller> ke4qqq: emphasis on was
16:04:07 <stickster> mchua: One other point -- lots of Fedora contributors don't know what marketing is (as a field)
16:04:57 <rrix> ianweller: is it on fedorahosted or anything?
16:05:15 <ianweller> rrix: it's on github.com/ianweller/mw
16:05:18 <rrix> some quick GUI wrapped around that would be cool
16:05:28 <rrix> ianweller: danke
16:05:41 <ianweller> rrix: i'd love for someone else to hack stuff into it :)
16:05:58 <rrix> ianweller: I'll take a gander tonight :)
16:06:13 <hiemanshu> ianweller: I'll take a look when I feel better :)
16:07:06 * mchua back transcribing
16:07:11 <mchua> wonderer4711 is on board
16:07:20 * mchua proud that we're doing things TOSW
16:07:37 <mchua> wonderer4711: I treid to find new contributors.
16:07:59 <mchua> wonderer4711: I think we have a bigger problem in the "we don't know what marketing TOSW is"
16:08:03 <mchua> because mktg students learn how to work for companies
16:08:12 <mchua> so we can use a lot of the marketing tools htat are out there
16:08:19 <mchua> but we need to transfer them to the FOSS world.
16:08:23 <mchua> for example: press kits.
16:08:33 <mchua> Often it's not enough to have one page press kits.
16:08:48 <mchua> because there is a lot more background to know about Fedora.
16:08:54 * rrix brb, restroom
16:09:10 <mchua> Because if you're a 40-50-y/o journalist, what does this look like to you?
16:09:23 <mchua> stickster: I'll note that our current press kit works well for journalists that already know RH, have that context
16:09:32 <mchua> wonderer4711: so we need something that gives that context to new journos, new magazines, etc
16:09:35 <rbergeron> <--- had to have ke4qqq look up what TOSW acronym stood for ;)
16:09:36 <stickster> Not so good for reaching out to new relationships
16:09:51 * quaid warns about being careful about ageism in our marketing assumptions
16:09:57 * ke4qqq notes TOSW = The Open Source Way
16:10:05 <mchua> quaid: +1
16:10:17 <mchua> wonderer4711: it's not very structured, what we're doing.
16:10:19 <mchua> confusing for new people.
16:10:20 <stickster> quaid: I think it was a random assertion by wonderer4711, not a serious marketing target
16:10:27 <mchua> so anyone can do some little parts but the whole thing is bigger than we can imagine.
16:10:48 <quaid> ok, then my point made directly to wonderer4711 :)
16:11:01 <mchua> We don't have an archive of marketing materials we've made in the past.
16:11:05 <mchua> NOt gathered in one place.
16:11:12 <mchua> #idea Marketing materials archive location
16:11:19 <rbergeron> photos from events, etc. also.
16:11:39 <quaid> fella gave a talk at CLS West about his business, "Social Media for the Uncomfortable" -- he recognized that many of those uncomfortable were older, but not exclusively.
16:12:31 <mchua> wonderer4711: *writes on board* "MARKETING != ADVERTISING"
16:12:47 <stickster> rharrison sez, "We don't do the full cycle of marketing yet."
16:13:11 <mchua> going around to ke4qqq
16:13:29 <mchua> ke4qqq: one thing I was pleased about with mktg for F12 was that we got alot of community ownership.
16:13:30 <stickster> rharrison sez, "such as feedback on features and how consumers want to see gaps completed"
16:13:40 <mchua> ke4qqq: for better or worse, mktg has been historically run by RH employees.
16:13:42 <mchua> And that's starting to shift.
16:14:00 <mchua> spevack: To note - tying that back to RH, that was a specific goal of our team in the past... 9 months
16:14:08 <mchua> to make sure the community-transition happened.
16:14:17 <mchua> ke4qqq: I think that speaks well of the community too.
16:14:41 <mchua> ke4qqq: I think the ownership - there are a lot of people standing up, it's not just CommArch generating output
16:14:45 * mchua cheers for new people
16:14:51 * ianweller too
16:15:54 <mchua> ke4qqq: notes that things didn't fall apart when mchua had WEEK OF DOOM last week and had to ghost
16:15:57 <mchua> which is really good
16:16:15 * mchua thinks so too, and profusely thanks everyone who held the fort during my period of mktg nonfunctionality
16:16:20 <mchua> RAPTOR/BUS TEST!
16:16:50 <mchua> ke4qqq: We talk about the disconnect between "typical mktg people" who don't know irc or wiki, etc... I think that's a challenge we'll have to figure out a way to deal with.
16:17:12 <mchua> I also wonder how - there are certainly tools that are at least as complex as IRC within commercial marketing environments - how are they dealing with that challenge?
16:17:47 <mchua> There needs to be a better integration of mktg with other teams.
16:17:55 <mchua> "go hang out in FESCo," etc.
16:17:58 <mchua> rbergeron has the floor now.
16:18:07 <mchua> rbergeron: I have nothing that hasn't really been covered yet.
16:18:38 * mchua asks rbergeron what it looked like when she jumped in
16:18:45 <threethirty> could we just put a java embedded irc applet up somewhere for non-technucal marketing people to us
16:18:47 <mchua> rbergeron: it seemed well-organized!
16:18:52 * mchua stares in disbelief
16:19:05 <mchua> rbergeron: *recalls F12 naming process* - meeting
16:19:08 <ke4qqq> java isn't looked on very well by infra - no domain expertise for java
16:19:12 * mchua notes "meetings make things look coherent!"
16:19:28 <threethirty> sorry for time/typos im on my mobile
16:19:44 <mchua> rbergeron: we need a "you're new! you have ideas! here's stuff that you can do, here's what we already do!"
16:19:53 <heffer> a java applet doesn't help if people new to irc understand what idling is :)
16:19:59 <mchua> rbergeron: make sure we show the stuff that we're already doing.
16:19:59 <rrix> threethirty: see above, webchat.freenode.net FTW
16:20:05 <mchua> heffer: yeeeeeah.
16:20:20 <mchua> rbergeron: it's all quite overwhelming for a new person.
16:20:30 <mchua> spevack: you have just described the landing page of EVERY FEDORA TEAM
16:20:57 <mchua> stickster: people show up with random ideas and need to understand the context within which ideas become reality in FOSS.
16:21:10 <threethirty> rrix: ty trying to read on this phone is killing me
16:21:29 <rrix> threethirty: :)
16:21:56 * mchua points out that "fix Join pages for ALL TEAMS" is *THE JOB* of Marketing team between Beta and GA for F13
16:22:02 <mchua> so this... yes, this is important
16:22:08 <mchua> ke4qqq: points out bugs in Marketing Join page (now fixed)
16:22:14 <heffer> chatroom is just too metaphorical. imagine entering a room with lots of people standing around and noone is answering your questions :D
16:22:34 <ianweller> perhaps a notice at the top that says "people do this thing called idling and may not be there all the time"
16:22:39 <rrix> heffer: many channels have in /topic "Yo dawg, we idle and stuffs, so juts chill here"
16:22:43 <rrix> exactly
16:22:47 <mchua> spevack: I look at the rev history of the Ambassadors wiki page. On 2/12 I rewrote the entire front page.
16:22:53 <mchua> It took an hour to make it pretty decent.
16:23:04 <mchua> We should do that for the f-mktg wiki page before we leave.
16:23:09 <mchua> #action rewrite [[Marketing]]
16:23:22 <heffer> but for marketing material it might be nice to have something like the "Design Hub" mo is envisioning for Design
16:23:30 <mchua> ke4qqq: mktg is a bit of a silo. we don't know what is happening in other teams.
16:23:33 <mchua> we have a few cross-pollinators
16:23:42 <hiemanshu> heffer: isnt design hub a spin>?
16:24:01 <heffer> hiemanshu: nope: http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/random-idea-for-design-collaboration-tool/
16:24:07 <heffer> and http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/another-design-hub-mockup/
16:24:17 <hiemanshu> ah
16:24:31 <rrix> #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/13/random-idea-for-design-collaboration-tool/
16:24:34 <mchua> thank you, felix
16:24:36 <rrix> #link http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/another-design-hub-mockup/
16:24:38 <rrix> (for the logs)
16:25:06 <mchua> wonderer4711: "we have tourists, but how do we get the tourists to work for us?"
16:25:13 <heffer> sure, no problem :)
16:25:15 <mchua> iow, how do we get the people who are watching to come and become contributors?
16:25:53 <hiemanshu> mchua: you talk to them, tell how it can help us and them
16:25:56 <hiemanshu> esp for students
16:26:04 <mchua> wonderer4711: do we have a higher "contributor capture" rate with the new ambassadors wiki page (how many people who look at it start helping?)
16:26:14 <mchua> hiemanshu: +1
16:26:22 <hiemanshu> mchua: I can tell other students I leant foo-a, foo-b, you can do that too
16:26:27 <heffer> maybe with something i'd call "appetizer tasks". small tasks that are pretty easy and are rewarding :)
16:26:28 <mchua> rbergeron: It looks bad when people come to [[Marketing]] and we do a poor job of Marketing... marketing.
16:26:29 <hiemanshu> learnt**
16:27:06 <mchua> #idea actually use our ticket queue
16:27:38 <poelcat> fwiw web stream extremely choppy w/ lots of drop outs... land line is silent
16:27:52 <mchua> poelcat: is the transcribing decent enough for you to get a sense of what's going on?
16:27:59 <mchua> I'm typing the vast majority of what's said into the channel
16:28:00 <spevack> poelcat: i'll move the mic around
16:28:17 <mchua> inode0, quaid, poelcat, hiemanshu, heffer, all remotees... if there's something you want to ask or say or find out more about, let us know
16:28:20 * ianweller is following along ok
16:28:37 <mchua> #info Clean-up the wiki - we need better info for newcomers.
16:28:44 <heffer> transcribing is great. thanks
16:28:51 <inode0> the feed seemed to die
16:28:55 <hiemanshu> mchua: I can help with the cleanup
16:28:57 <poelcat> spevack: i don't think that is the problem... the stream is completely dead as is the phone
16:29:00 <mchua> rbergeron: We need to find a way to capture all the random ideas we have mid-cycle.
16:29:03 <heffer> i stopped using the stream since the noise in the car is just too loud :D
16:29:05 <mchua> hiemanshu: That would be awesome, thanks!
16:29:13 <mchua> hiemanshu: Not sure when we are going to do that yet
16:29:16 <mchua> spevack: when do we have time?
16:29:20 <spevack> poelcat: didn't we just have a Fedora Talk FAD :P
16:29:23 <poelcat> spevack: don't worry about me... keep discussing, maybe try to fix on your break
16:29:37 <spevack> mchua: time for what?
16:29:37 <mchua> rbergeron: It would be great to have a survey for newcomers "what does this look like to you?"
16:29:38 <poelcat> spevack: maybe we need another one ;-)
16:29:41 <mchua> spevack: fixing [[Marketing]]
16:29:51 <spevack> mchua: late late show?
16:30:06 <mchua> spevack: another-night-than-tonight, sure
16:30:09 <mchua> tomorrow maybe
16:30:42 <hiemanshu> mchua: Unless it really early in the morning I will be here most of the time
16:30:45 * inode0 gets a 404 from the streaming server
16:30:50 <mchua> rrix: can you spell me off on transcribing for a bit?
16:31:00 <rrix> mchua: eh?
16:31:16 <mchua> rrix: take notes, my hands are tired
16:31:18 <rrix> :)
16:31:52 <rrix> #linkhttps://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/F13_Brainstorm
16:32:00 <rrix> rbergeron: we have tons of good ideas, but we haven't actually DONE them
16:32:13 <rrix> We're still hung up on survey stuff and FI because of logistical stuff
16:32:31 <rrix> mchua: have more ideas than we are capable of doing is a Good Thing
16:32:42 <rrix> stickster: it lets us pick and choose what we want to do
16:33:12 <hiemanshu> mchua: having more ideas and less people is actually bad because we cant make the best of the ideas
16:33:18 <rrix> stickster: revisiting the schedule at each release is _on the schedule_
16:33:57 <rrix> so we can discuss with poelcat about a week or two after the GA about our schedule, nail down new ideas, ETC
16:34:14 <stickster> Or whenever that "revisit/revise the schedule" item happens
16:34:34 <stickster> I can't recall whether it's a few weeks before GA to determine the next release schedule, or a few weeks after.
16:34:36 <yn1v> premeeting preschedule to figure out the revison of schedule kind of/sort of ?
16:34:36 <rrix> mchua worked with poelcat at the last release to nail down the schedule but we want to open that up for the next one
16:34:37 * stickster looks
16:34:41 <rrix> VileGent's turn
16:35:04 <rrix> one thing VileGent has seen over the releases is that he saw marketing as kind of a black hole like ke4qqq said.
16:35:12 <rrix> no one realloy knows what it does, it's not docs, not ambassadors
16:35:28 <rrix> now we have New Folks working to unite, organize, and GET STUFF DONE in marketing
16:35:38 <poelcat> F14 has been *drafted* http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-draft-schedule.html
16:35:55 <rrix> Now we (and all projects) are starting to say "We need to do more, and work together more"
16:35:56 <poelcat> it's never too early to add stuff in :)
16:36:02 <rrix> and are becoming less silo-ish.
16:36:18 <ke4qqq> rrix: I'll type for you
16:36:19 <rrix> VileGent: That's what I have seen in F12
16:36:31 <ke4qqq> rrix: doesn't have much to say anyway
16:36:37 <ke4qqq> rrix: kinda the new kid
16:36:43 <ke4qqq> rrix: not much to say about f12
16:36:56 <VileGent> ryan i am the new kid so i  dont have much to say about f12
16:37:15 <ke4qqq> rrix: from the standpoint of a user - mktg wasn't very visible - no identity of who wqas behind it
16:37:19 <ke4qqq> or how to get involved
16:37:37 <ke4qqq> rrix: like I said - not much to say.
16:37:44 <ke4qqq> rrix: got sucked in by fedora tour
16:38:35 <rrix> ke4qqq: want me to take over again?
16:38:40 <ke4qqq> VileGent: marketing in the past didn't do a whole lot - aside from perhaps talking points
16:38:43 <ke4qqq> rrix: your call
16:38:50 <rrix> ke4qqq: yours ;)
16:39:11 <ke4qqq> VileGent: clarifying - people didn't do a lot of visible things - so looked like things didn't happen
16:39:35 <ke4qqq> yn1v: just joined marketing team, though been an ambassador.
16:39:44 <ke4qqq> spevack: yn1v has been around forever
16:40:01 <ke4qqq> yn1v: historically talking points haven't been highest quality - getting much better
16:40:21 <ke4qqq> yn1v: been on mktg lists for a long time
16:40:35 <ke4qqq> yn1v: quantity and quality of posts on list is up of late
16:40:48 <ke4qqq> yn1v: f12 cycle for marketing has been very good.
16:41:35 <ke4qqq> yn1v: a lot of content already generated for this cycle - hard to find (got lost on the wiki) but there nonetheless
16:41:54 <ke4qqq> yn1v: marketing seems more relevant and actionalbe for the ambassadors now.
16:41:56 <rrix> is that something we should work on (not getting lost?)
16:42:14 <ke4qqq> mchua: drawing on board
16:42:22 * rrix picture
16:42:24 <ke4qqq> mchua: asked how many people in mktg are in ambassadors
16:42:33 <inode0> stream recovered
16:42:35 <ke4qqq> what is overlap of the lists
16:43:22 * quaid sees and fixes a link
16:43:33 <quaid> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/F13_Brainstorm
16:43:49 <ke4qqq> mchua: ambassadors are the sales/hr of the FLOSS world
16:43:58 <quaid> :D
16:43:59 <ke4qqq> and mktg is not ads
16:44:13 <ke4qqq> stickster: taking pictures
16:44:17 <pcalarco> /nick pcalarco_afk
16:44:56 <rbergeron> hi poelcat
16:45:15 <pcalarco_afk> will be back later; errands time for a bit
16:45:15 <quaid> can yn1v get a mic a bit closer?
16:45:17 <rrix> mchua: do we have time to start figuring out what the two groups share in common (the overlap)
16:45:20 <quaid> if that's who is talking
16:45:39 <rrix> does this mic over hre by ke4qqq work?
16:45:45 * quaid not sure how far off his audio is from reality, was ~60 sec a while ago
16:45:51 <ke4qqq> rharrison: knows that people in booth are getting same questions over and over - which if we can capture will tell us what we need to be answering
16:45:52 <rrix> also, there is a mic right by rharrison that may or may not be on
16:45:56 <rrix> (on the table)
16:46:09 <ke4qqq> #idea people in booth are getting same questions over and over - which if we can capture  will tell us what we need to be answering
16:46:11 <quaid> rrix: I'm not hearing ke4qqq very loud right now, but I'd have to hear a full mic check
16:46:14 <stickster> #idea Create FAQ for Ambassadors to use at booths to answer common questions about Fedora
16:46:18 <ke4qqq> quaid: I am not talking
16:46:22 <spevack> mchua is talking
16:46:24 <stickster> #undo
16:46:24 <zodbot> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Idea object at 0x284cbd90>
16:46:31 * stickster takes out his redundant idea ;-)
16:46:55 <quaid> yeah, audio buffer makes for a long lag
16:47:05 <rrix> ke4qqq: can you tap the mic, and see if it's on?
16:47:18 <rrix> rharrison/spevack too
16:47:38 <spevack> test test
16:47:42 <mchua> dept of redundancy dept
16:47:43 <spevack> quaid: let us know when you hear me say test test
16:47:43 <rrix> there are mics right there in front of pretty much everyone
16:47:53 <quaid> spevack: my audio is all stop right now
16:47:57 <rrix> :/
16:47:58 <quaid> let's fix at the next break
16:48:01 <spevack> ftalk fail
16:48:01 * inode0 hears ke4qqq better then anyone else
16:48:07 * quaid has local failure
16:48:13 <spevack> there's a mic right in front of ke4qqq
16:48:21 <wonderer4711> break is maybe a good idea ;-)
16:48:30 <ke4qqq> #link  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Tatica/Laptop_show
16:48:34 <spevack> wonderer4711: it's getting close to lunchtime, i think
16:48:40 <rbergeron> F00d
16:48:44 <ke4qqq> ^^ that we talked about a moment ago - feel free to work on this and edit
16:48:46 <ianweller> oh, you silly east coast people
16:48:52 <wonderer4711> oh ... so late?! :-D
16:48:53 <ianweller> it's only 10:48 am here! i just ate breakfast!
16:49:30 <quaid> yay audio without 99% usage!
16:49:49 <mchua> Can someone summarize what VileGent has just been saying?
16:49:50 <quaid> ianweller: I'm getting ready for second breakfast at 8:49 am here :)
16:49:57 <mchua> I didn't catch some of it becuase I was moving the mic around
16:50:02 <ke4qqq> VileGent: talking about use of netbooks in eventboxes
16:50:20 <spevack> quaid: you're like a hobbit
16:50:21 <ke4qqq> VileGent: along with OLPCs
16:50:49 <mchua> ke4qqq: We've talked about - "is there a video we need to show?"
16:50:58 <mchua> If you go to Tatica's page, she's got a 4Fs video.
16:51:07 <mchua> Even if it is nothing more than that, that we can just loop in the background...
16:51:18 <mchua> Even better to loop would be "here are the cool features you can see!"
16:51:25 <mchua> spevack: is that what we're making this week? ;)
16:51:34 <spevack> mchua: raw materials for it, sure
16:51:38 <mchua> w00t
16:51:49 <spevack> fedora video archive
16:51:54 <mchua> #idea Fedora video archive
16:51:57 <mchua> #idea Fedora slides archive
16:52:09 <spevack> (1) Get all the videos of Fedora stuff that live inside RHT and liberate them.
16:52:13 <ke4qqq> #idea larger display for above slides/video looping
16:53:12 <rrix> Can I go back to this when spevack is done?
16:53:12 * mchua transcribes again
16:53:16 <mchua> rrix: totally
16:53:19 <ke4qqq> rrix: yes
16:53:29 <rrix> some random point/idea
16:53:29 <mchua> spevack: I thiink it's been interesting to see mktg work through the schedule tasks.
16:53:30 * ke4qqq notes mchua is a transcribing machine
16:53:34 <VileGent> #or a mini projector
16:53:56 <mchua> spevack: let's look at the spare time mktg has (outside deliverables) and how we want to apply some of that spare time.
16:53:58 <rrix> VileGent's in my head!
16:54:03 <mchua> spevack: for instance, FI.
16:54:22 <mchua> When was the last time we tried to do marketing for specific subsections of Fedora?
16:54:48 <mchua> Cleaning up, say, all the stuff around "howto become a packager" is not something engr is going to get around to doing.
16:54:51 <mchua> can mktg?
16:55:08 <mchua> rbergeron: we should be marketing "Fedora the community" as well as "Fedora the product"
16:55:30 <ke4qqq> #idea deliverables for promoting the community in addition to the distro
16:55:46 <quaid> spevack: yeah, as much as I wish I were elfish, hobbit I am -- that's OK, I think Hobbits were clearly Tolkein's "secret" favorite
16:55:51 * mchua points out the unstated: F-mktg's currency (to maximize, instead of $) is contributions.
16:56:06 <ke4qqq> spevack - market the open source way
16:56:06 <mchua> spevack: wants to market TOSW as well
16:56:10 <mchua> ke4qqq: jinx :)
16:56:35 <mchua> quaid, inode0, ianweller, poelcat_, heffer, hiemanshu... do you folks want to start writing your F12 postmortem reflections?
16:56:38 <quaid> yeah, how to become a packager needs some hugs
16:56:49 <mchua> I'd say write them up and fpaste them so we can read them all at once with less thread-confusion
16:57:00 * wonderer4711 just found that RH bathroombriefing and found out that we do not have a press.fp.o landingpage... <- fixit...
16:57:08 <quaid> "the open source way" lower case
16:57:10 <spevack> to be clear -- what spevack means is "highlighting the places where the Fedora Project follows TOSW"
16:57:11 <mchua> #idea press.fp.o landing page
16:57:14 <mchua> wonderer4711: nice :)
16:57:42 * quaid offers wiki access to everyone at the FAD for theopensourceway.org/wiki/
16:57:43 * inode0 suggests everyone in Fedora read tosw and seriously think about how true to it they are being as well
16:57:48 <wonderer4711> mchua: best ideas always come at the ... aehm ... toilette...
16:57:49 <quaid> join in the canonical content creation
16:57:58 <poelcat_> mchua: i don't think i have anything to add at this point
16:58:24 <mchua> poelcat_: but you have awesome PM-fu and have been keeping us on scheduel (and making us have one in the first place!)
16:58:29 <mchua> poelcat_: how could we have made your F12 life easier?
16:58:40 <quaid> I was more outside of F12 release than ever, and it felt yin/yang:
16:58:49 <quaid> -- while we were struggling on one side with our identity in very big ways
16:58:51 <wonderer4711> quaid: works that wikiaccess with our FAS together...?!
16:58:53 <mchua> stickster is summarizing the long "how to get people to touch updates - give karma" thread
16:58:56 <mchua> (mailing list thread)
16:59:01 <quaid> -- we were also doing so much stuff more like the way it should be than ever before
16:59:07 <hiemanshu> mchua: I dont think i have much to say, I haven't been with -mktg much around F12
16:59:09 <quaid> wonderer4711: nope, it's stand-alone
16:59:13 <mchua> quaid: can haz elaboration?
16:59:34 <quaid> mchua: well, marketing is a great example of a sub-project coming to maturity tosw
16:59:59 <mchua> ke4qqq, VileGent, spevack, rrix... can someone summarize what stickster just said?
17:00:03 <quaid> other areas are maturing, if we had a "Open Source Way Maturity Model" to compare to
17:00:12 <poelcat_> mchua: I think the big break through that was already discussed was getting mkting tasks into the master schedule
17:00:18 <mchua> quaid: ooh, should we? have a maturity model?
17:00:19 <stickster> mchua: I can reference the URL for the idea
17:00:21 <stickster> hang on
17:00:26 <hiemanshu> wonderer4711: for press.fp.o we need to speak to mmcgrath and the infra people, should I do it?>
17:00:26 <mchua> quaid: I feel like mktg is still all colt-like and wobbly on its feet
17:00:32 <quaid> mchua: nah, but we could bluff one up if you'd like :)
17:00:32 <mchua> quaid: but learning fast
17:00:33 <spevack> stickster's recent points tie into the idea of Fedora Marketing providing a service for other parts of the larger Fedora Project.
17:00:36 <mchua> quaid: love to :D
17:00:40 <quaid> mchua: well, that's tosw (lower case)
17:00:55 <stickster> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-March/008194.html <-- Ryan's original idea
17:01:00 <spevack> the final 10% for instance around package update testing -- giving people a process to try something, to revert if it breaks, to offer feedback.
17:01:02 <wonderer4711> hiemanshu: not right now. just collecting. There will be others coming!
17:01:10 <spevack> This is the higher level stuff that provides glue
17:01:11 <quaid> mchua: there are people to a maturity model, I bet; maybe RedMonk or something; we can look around; but it's probably unwieldy :)
17:01:14 <stickster> #link http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/advisory-board/2010-March/008195.html <-- Spot's requantification
17:01:27 <hiemanshu> wonderer4711: ah great, let me know if you need help with web stuff :)
17:01:28 <spevack> and gives users small onramps into minor contributions.
17:01:50 <mchua> quaid: ethnographic research, this is. I'll pull out my old research notes on how to do this well.
17:01:53 * mchua writes down idea
17:01:55 <ke4qqq> rrix: go
17:02:19 <wonderer4711> quaid: can you make me a wiki account? user: wonderer
17:02:29 <spevack> quaid, poelcat, inode0 -- anything you guys want to add?
17:02:36 <quaid> wonderer4711: email address?
17:02:41 <mchua> #idea "Maturity model" for tosw to get a notion of where mktg team is along this process
17:02:43 <poelcat_> spevack: i'm good
17:02:47 <wonderer4711> wonderer@fedoraproject.org.
17:02:49 * quaid is finito
17:03:11 <rrix> ke4qqq: lost context at this point, it was minor, and ended up in irc anyways :)
17:03:28 <heffer> is lagging because mobile broadband doesn't really work at 180km/h
17:03:39 <inode0> quaid: are contributions to TOSW coming in? would knocking a hunk of that out in a dedicated FAD be possible?
17:03:45 <poelcat_> spevack: one refinement... i think it is great for "marketing to provide services", I'd want to be very clear what the primary services are vs. "nice to have" or "as time/resources permit"
17:03:51 <rbergeron> mmmmm fad
17:03:56 <quaid> inode0: nope, yep
17:03:57 <wonderer> heffer: it should be better in eastern germany *duck*
17:04:20 <rbergeron> lol
17:04:20 <spevack> poelcat_: indeed.  One of the things I said out loud that may not have been transcribed was that all of my comments were prefaced by "it will be interesting to see what additional capacity Fedora Marketing has..."
17:04:27 <heffer> i'm around Koblenz right now :)
17:04:38 <quaid> inode0: there's plenty to do there with what exists, filling in principles, implementations, and examples + improving what's there
17:05:00 <spevack> ke4qqq: "is Marketing a sub-project (or a SIG)?"
17:05:05 <mchua> stickster: "I think the difference between subprojects and teams... there is no difference."
17:05:26 <mchua> I don't know why we made the distinction - I think it had something to do with the level of accountability, and the level of accountability changed
17:05:32 <mchua> SIGs don't actually have to get things done.
17:05:51 <mchua> Subprojects actually are obligated to make deliverables for people who matter beyond themselves, so they were held more accountable for that.
17:06:02 <mchua> I think in the long view, this distinction hasn't actually done anything for us.
17:06:08 <quaid> wonderer4711: email coming at you, here's all the links you need to know if you haven't read them: 2~https://www.theopensourceway.org/wiki/Main_Page#Contributing_to_this_content
17:06:17 <mchua> Because if you have people "reporting" to someone, it starts looking like not-a-community-prejoct.
17:06:36 <mchua> ke4qqq: oh, wait 'till I borrow a steno keyboard in April and learn to use it (it'll take a few months ;)
17:06:53 <hiemanshu> mchua: not reporting to *someone* but report to the *community*
17:07:00 <quaid> +1
17:07:03 <hiemanshu> people need to know what is going on
17:07:14 <hiemanshu> like for example with FI
17:07:17 <quaid> SIGs don't have to report if they don't want to have a community :), but sub-projects are obliged to
17:07:20 <mchua> hiemanshu: +1
17:07:35 <hiemanshu> me quaid and other people send to the list what we did
17:07:38 <quaid> yeah, *awesome* distinction that
17:08:07 <quaid> #idea sub-projects are accountable to the community, SIGs are accountable to themselves and whomever they choose - both are teams
17:08:13 <mchua> spevack: the distinction I made in my fedora governance speech at FOSDEM - if SIGs blow up, some people will be disappointed but it's okay. If subprojects blow up, ZOMG BAD
17:08:30 <mchua> stickster: I never call out or name "oh that's just a SIG" - it's not any less
17:08:35 * mchua wants to relay hiemanshu's comment to the room
17:08:42 <mchua> welcome nmarques!
17:08:53 <mchua> nmarques: http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/
17:09:15 <mchua> hiemanshu: nodding all around re: your comment
17:09:23 <quaid> mchua: can you add that to the topic? who can get chanops here?
17:09:27 <mchua> stickster: all community teams are responsible for reporting to the rest of the community.
17:09:33 <mchua> quaid: Um... I... have no idea
17:09:41 <mchua> quaid: add what to the topic?
17:09:47 <quaid> the link to the open log
17:09:48 <hiemanshu> spevack does
17:09:58 <hiemanshu> and so does stickster
17:10:02 <mchua> spevack: can haz /topic http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-fad/2010-03-13/ ?
17:10:08 <rrix> yeah, the topic is still Events FAD ;)
17:10:11 * quaid uses /msg chanserv info #channel
17:10:17 <rbergeron> lol
17:10:23 <hiemanshu> quaid: /msg ChanServ access #fedora-fad list :)
17:10:27 * ke4qqq suggests we leave the "Dead ponies spread no rainbows"
17:10:32 <mchua> hiemanshu, quaid: oh cool, thanks! /me learns stuff
17:10:42 <rbergeron> poooooooooonies
17:10:49 <quaid> bettah
17:10:59 <rrix> ah!! VileGent as +o! the horror!
17:11:12 * quaid runs around in a circle all skeered
17:11:13 <mchua> stickster: can haz summary when you're done? I can't capture all that....
17:11:27 <spevack> rbergeron: http://www.ponystars.com/
17:12:07 <wonderer4711> quaid: worked. thx.
17:12:13 <stickster> There was a June 2008 discussion about the Board and FESCo where the Board laid out to FESCo what responsibilities the Board delegated to them
17:12:17 * mchua asks whether community groups know *how* they're supposed to relay what they're doing to other community groups
17:12:26 <stickster> The Board also laid out reporting lines for each of the teams
17:12:32 <mchua> we have a notion of it, vaguely - Planet is good, announce list is good... but... what does that mean?
17:12:37 <hiemanshu> mchua: lists
17:12:37 <mchua> logistics list?
17:12:41 <hiemanshu> cc both the lists
17:12:42 <mchua> Is this what FI should be for?
17:12:43 <mchua> etc.
17:12:49 <mchua> hiemanshu: that gets both lists, not necessarily "the community"
17:12:54 * mchua acknowledges "the community" is vague
17:12:57 * poelcat_ steps away off for a bit... ping me when you get into rbergeron's discussion on marketing plan/targets or know what time it will be at
17:13:04 <stickster> logistics list is someplace at least the team leader for a team should be.
17:13:07 <spevack> poelcat_: it will probably be after lunch
17:13:15 <mchua> stickster: have we clarified that as an expectation?
17:13:25 <stickster> Most of them are, but I can make sure that happens.
17:13:39 <mchua> stickster: all we've done on logistics is FI and poelcat_ getting the readiness meetings togeehtr.
17:13:42 <mchua> er, together.
17:13:57 <mchua> stickster: how about FWN?
17:14:04 <rbergeron> spevack: that's ... hilarious.
17:14:13 <mchua> Where's Pascal?
17:14:18 <mchua> spevack: I don't read FWN.
17:14:23 <mchua> stickster: I read half of them, but pass on all of them.
17:14:30 <mchua> We need better coverage.
17:14:47 <mchua> stickster: The purpose of beat writers is to get that report written without burdening the team itself.
17:14:58 <mchua> spevack: in an ideal world, the beat writer for the team would do nothing else for that team.
17:15:10 <mchua> #info pcalarco, please read the log starting at 17:13
17:15:22 <rrix> mchua: pc's gone
17:15:24 <mchua> ke4qqq: singing the praises of the virt beat as a gold standard
17:15:32 <stickster> poelcat_ OK, will do
17:15:34 <mchua> rrix: yeah, I'm timestamping a note for when he gets back.
17:15:39 <quaid> it makes sense that folks read only the beats they care about, which is a bit harder to consume
17:15:47 <quaid> Insight will give us more better there
17:15:49 <rrix> mchua: hah, sorry
17:15:53 <rrix> Where is my coffee ;)
17:16:07 <quaid> for example, each beat could have an identi.ca stream, and when the beat is done, a dent goes out, then repeats every N hours
17:16:16 <quaid> I would sub to just the beats I like, etc.
17:16:20 * ianweller back
17:16:36 <spevack> quaid: nice idea.  Fedora && social media is a whole 'nother can of worms :P
17:16:39 <hiemanshu> quaid: something like a planet.fp.o with categories
17:16:40 <quaid> I read much more planet because of the Fedora planet identi.ca feed, and I just go right to the blogs that are interesting
17:16:48 <hiemanshu> spevack: please deop yourself :)
17:16:51 <rrix> quaid: the beat post would repeat?
17:17:02 <quaid> rrix: that's the trick with microblogging
17:17:08 <quaid> if you have posts that repeat a few times, you get far more
17:17:22 <quaid> so much comes in a microblog stream that much more is missed; it's not as persistent (Scrolls way off screen)
17:17:26 * mchua adds "Engineering" to the list of teams to get a closer tie to.
17:17:37 <rrix> quaid: ah, i could see that
17:17:38 * hiemanshu does with the planetfedora twitter feed
17:17:39 <quaid> s/get far more/get far more readers/
17:17:52 <mchua> quaid: the point of moving FWN to FI is in part to get those feeds split up
17:17:56 <hiemanshu> s/does/does taht/
17:17:57 <quaid> bingo
17:17:57 <mchua> and to have feeds in the first place
17:18:28 * mchua notes that engineers showed up after the talking points cutoff going "oh, we're sorry we missed that... we were too busy making stuff... but can we have this as a talking point anyway?"
17:18:41 <mchua> because they shouldn't *have* to pay attention to the day-to-day of marketing... and they didn't, so they missed this
17:18:48 <mchua> how do we make it easier for them to hook into?
17:18:52 * wonderer4711 looking at mchua and thinking of "ghost in the shell" robot :-) can't help it...
17:18:53 <hiemanshu> also with the recent changes in start.fp.o feed will be seen on the start.fp.o page too
17:18:55 <quaid> #action use devel-announce
17:19:01 <mchua> quaid: righto
17:19:19 <quaid> btw audio just dropped for me although the stream still seems to be on
17:19:35 <hiemanshu> quaid: link to stream ?
17:19:38 <inode0> dropped everywhere
17:19:50 <quaid> http://talk.fedoraproject.org:8000/status.xsl
17:19:54 <quaid> maybe we can add that to the topic, too
17:22:33 <hiemanshu> spevack: ^^ ?
17:22:35 <rrix> stickster: use your gobby document, not mine
17:22:54 <ke4qqq> has someone started a gobby doc?
17:23:14 <ke4qqq> and which of these sections are taken already
17:24:23 <rrix> ke4qqq: I figured one doc for all boards..
17:24:55 * nmarques waits for video
17:25:28 <wonderer4711> shame on me have no idea about gobby
17:25:49 <ianweller> wonderer4711: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Gobby
17:25:51 <wonderer4711> nmarques: wait, mchua is working on it.
17:28:06 * mchua going to endmeeting so we can link this log to the day 1 morning section of the wiki
17:28:11 <mchua> #endmeenitg
17:28:16 <mchua> #endmeeting