15:06:41 <lnovich> #startmeeting Laura's office hours
15:06:41 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Jul 22 15:06:41 2015 UTC.  The chair is lnovich. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:06:41 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
15:06:52 <lnovich> #rollcall
15:07:04 <lnovich> anyone here today?
15:07:09 * grundblom here
15:07:24 <lnovich> hi there grundblom!
15:07:51 * smccann is here
15:07:53 <lnovich> kirsti: smccann are you joining today?
15:07:56 <grundblom> time appropriate greetings!
15:08:00 <lnovich> hi smccann!
15:08:26 <smccann> *waves to one and all*
15:08:41 <kirsti> yes I am in
15:08:49 <lnovich> ok so grundblom what happened?
15:08:56 * kirsti joins
15:09:24 <lnovich> let's get the branching issue solved so we can all go on happy and merry
15:11:02 <grundblom> yay happy
15:11:20 <grundblom> So, I merged the changes in master to branch f22
15:11:30 <lnovich> grundblom: which guide?
15:11:43 <grundblom> virt-getting-started
15:11:55 <grundblom> and the changes are not reflected in the docs.fedoraproject.org page
15:12:06 <lnovich> ok when did you make the change?
15:12:07 <grundblom> so I think I missed a step
15:12:17 <grundblom> Monday evening
15:12:21 <lnovich> ok
15:12:36 <lnovich> I have not published in a VERY long time
15:13:04 <grundblom> maybe I am impatient?
15:13:07 <lnovich> it used to be that in order to see the changes on the website you had to put the guide into the folder for the webserver on the repo
15:13:17 <lnovich> i am not sure that is true today
15:13:19 <smccann> grundblom - I don't think you and I have full publish rights. I think we can change master but have to ask someone else to do the publishing
15:13:40 <grundblom> smccann, Ah! that would make sense
15:13:58 <grundblom> maybe I did not mess it up after all
15:14:12 <smccann> :-)
15:14:14 <lnovich> probably not
15:14:23 <lnovich> sounds like you did all the steps you can do
15:14:35 <lnovich> randomuser: are you here
15:15:08 <smccann> there's a batch of problems in the virt-manager chapter that I'm hoping kirsti can help with. Then maybe we can ask TPTB to republish?
15:15:15 <kirsti> grundblom I started going over the guide this week and added some suggestions on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Virt_Getting_Started_Planning
15:15:37 <grundblom> hi Kristi!
15:15:42 <kirsti> hoping not to cross your work ;)
15:16:10 <lnovich> first and foremost we need to change the titles so that they match the style in Boxes
15:16:33 <lnovich> -having the how to in the title yields for a more productive google search - so I hear
15:17:25 <lnovich> then we need to make sure that the information and instructions are simple enough for the scope and audience of getting started
15:17:49 <kirsti> smccann you might have to send me a link
15:18:02 <lnovich> if not it needs to go into the bigger deployment and admin guide
15:18:10 <smccann> my nickel - keep it virt-manager and boxes only.  The rest (libvirt raw commands etc) are out of scope imo
15:18:18 <lnovich> does that make sense?
15:18:41 <kirsti> so why cannot we make that part of ch 4?
15:18:48 <lnovich> agreed - move virsh command line out to the VDAG
15:19:20 <lnovich> Also we need to tackle the storage issue in chapter 4
15:19:24 <grundblom> Well, moving machines requires some command line work for boxes...
15:19:55 <grundblom> thats a question my users ask as soon as I introduce any desktop virt tool
15:19:55 <lnovich> and chapter 4 is misleading
15:20:01 <smccann> #info 6.4. Creating guests with virt-manager - needs cleanup - updated screen caps but did not update text to match in the procedure.
15:20:29 <lnovich> moving machines is more complex and not part of getting started grundblom
15:20:38 <smccann> kirsti - that is the change I'm talking about.  Fairly straightforward - if you look at the screencaps, you'll see they moved naming the VM to the last step
15:20:54 <smccann> but the text in the procedure still mentions it in the first step.
15:21:12 <lnovich> the getting started should be only about setting up a VM from start to finish
15:21:44 <kirsti> smccann ok, ping me tomorrow, see what I can do then
15:22:17 <grundblom> lnovich, I see your point. That content took some time to create, should I park it on a wiki page so it is not lost?
15:22:18 <kirsti> I focused on chapter 3, where advantages are mentioned.
15:22:31 <lnovich> sure
15:22:36 <kirsti> It seems a bit limited in information to me.
15:22:50 <lnovich> grundblom: wherever you want to put it so it doesn't get lost is fine
15:23:46 <lnovich> we may just want to comment it out of the chapter for now and keep it there -just as an option
15:24:19 <lnovich> and indicate as such in the wiki that the content is in something.xml
15:24:56 <lnovich> so when we're ready to incorporate that into the VDAG - it is a copy paste and update
15:25:07 <grundblom> So, if I am understanding this correctly, we really need to simplify the doc
15:25:21 <lnovich> getting started needs to be simple
15:25:33 <lnovich> just get the person started
15:25:35 <grundblom> The idea: Help a new user build and keep a VM in two graphical VM software products
15:25:46 <lnovich> yup
15:26:08 <lnovich> those who are more advanced, may skip the getting started guide and go straight to the VDAG
15:26:31 <lnovich> i would like to keep the getting started to the complete novice
15:26:40 <lnovich> or to the person who is new to Linux
15:26:48 <smccann> grundblom - where do your users fall in the spectrum?  Why do they need to migrate their VMs etc?
15:27:16 <grundblom> Do we need to bother with education of Why people should use virtualization?
15:27:44 <lnovich> not in great depth
15:27:50 <kirsti> In that light ch 3 should read as a sort of business case to sell it to managers right? And to convince beginners that it is not too difficult?
15:28:24 <grundblom> smcann, they usually build VM's on their desktops and laptops, and then want to clone it to other people so they can experiment in the exact same enviorment with different data sets
15:28:31 <kirsti> grundblom I think so, we could add a few examples of how to use it perhaps
15:29:43 <lnovich> my thought is to put the migration cloning and snapshot creation out of the getting started, but we can mention it is possible to do so and point to the VDAG for more info
15:29:56 <smccann> k
15:30:08 <grundblom> lnovich, sounds good to me
15:30:20 <lnovich> i like telling users what else they can do once they have installed and configured a VM
15:30:28 <kirsti> lnovich I come from a back ground of project manager and adviser to management, I would want to be sold by the beginners guide, would look for the why
15:30:41 <lnovich> I agree
15:30:57 <lnovich> we need to have a place for decision makers to read
15:31:08 <lnovich> getting started is a good a place as any
15:31:18 <grundblom> kirsti, ah, that was an angle I wasnt thinking about, a non technical person reading it
15:31:23 <kirsti> can I make a new proposal for Ch3, elaborate a bit
15:31:44 <lnovich> sure what's on your mind
15:31:46 <grundblom> maybe we need to make the selling points Chapter 1 for the pointy hairs to read first
15:32:11 <lnovich> we need a proper introduction
15:32:20 <lnovich> with a high level overview
15:32:25 <grundblom> or at least close to the beginning
15:32:39 <grundblom> lnovich, right!
15:32:45 <lnovich> on what the solution looks feels and acts like
15:32:52 <kirsti> Using the set up for ch 3 as a baseline, but adding a more elaborate explanation, and perhaps a few tips or use cases
15:33:12 <lnovich> then explain the benefits and possibilities
15:33:21 <lnovich> as well as the vocabulary
15:34:02 <kirsti> that would be great, yes :)
15:34:07 <lnovich> tell people about what a host/guest/and hypervisor are
15:34:37 <lnovich> vs a client and server etc
15:34:48 <grundblom> Ok, so that makes Chapter 2 seem odd to me
15:35:21 <lnovich> 2.2 needs to go
15:35:28 <lnovich> to another location
15:35:49 <grundblom> to the VDAG?
15:35:59 <grundblom> migration seems to be a more advanced topic
15:36:05 <lnovich> virtualization deployment and administration guide
15:36:12 <lnovich> ie the BIG Kahuna
15:36:17 <kirsti> have you ever worked with an appendix where terminology is explained?
15:36:30 <lnovich> as in a glossary?
15:36:35 <kirsti> yes
15:36:45 <grundblom> kirsti, read them, never made them
15:36:53 <lnovich> glossaries are problematic when it comes to translation
15:37:09 <kirsti> lnovich good point...
15:37:12 <lnovich> as we can't guarantee that the translated terms will be in alphabetical order
15:37:24 <lnovich> so we traditionally have not used them
15:37:28 <lnovich> which I don't agree with
15:37:54 <kirsti> well you can alphabetize per language as long as the refernces are made right
15:38:15 <lnovich> we can bring it up at the docs meeting if you want
15:38:27 <kirsti> also a lot of western European just use the English technical words
15:38:57 <kirsti> No use in translating those, when the product is English
15:40:41 <lnovich> yes they use them - maybe we can put it into a table and then tag the term as <literal> so it isn't translated?
15:40:55 <kirsti> good plan
15:40:56 <lnovich> and this way the term is not translated and the definition is?
15:41:03 <kirsti> yes
15:41:07 <lnovich> this will only work if the terms are not translated
15:41:21 <kirsti> example: migration is used when
15:41:44 <lnovich> we will need to ask the translation group
15:41:57 <kirsti> Migration wordt gebruikt als (Dutch)
15:43:43 <lnovich> I'll bring it up next week at the docs meeitng
15:43:46 <lnovich> meeting
15:47:10 <kirsti> for my understanding, does the product fedora come in multiple languages or only the documentation?
15:47:21 <lnovich> both
15:47:30 <lnovich> but they may not be matched
15:47:43 <kirsti> complicated...
15:47:53 <lnovich> as I am not completely multi-lingual I can't check
15:48:28 <lnovich> it is complicated
15:48:54 <lnovich> and frustrating if you are dependent on the translations being correct
15:49:43 <lnovich> ok so 10 minutes to the end of the hour
15:50:14 <kirsti> Shall I open a Wiki with a re-write for Chapter 3?
15:50:36 <lnovich> just add it to the current wiki - let's keep it together
15:51:22 <kirsti> will do
15:53:53 <grundblom> I would be happy to create content for making a vm with Virt-manager with screen shots,
15:54:44 <grundblom> I think that would be an update to chapter 6,
15:55:14 <grundblom> smccann, oh I see your working on that chapter, oops!
15:55:58 <smccann> the chapter is there already grundblom yeah
15:56:20 <smccann> was thinking a good easy starter task for kirsti would be fixing my fubars tho :-)
15:56:40 <smccann> i changed the images but not the text
15:56:57 <kirsti> smccann, I will look at it :)
15:58:41 <lnovich> smccann: what are you currently working on?
15:59:20 <grundblom> I appreciate the time everyone, I wont be able to make it tomorrow
15:59:30 <smccann> removing RHEL etc from VDAG
15:59:36 <lnovich> that's fine grundblom -
15:59:49 <lnovich> ok that is enough to keep you busy
15:59:56 <lnovich> grundblom: what will you do?
16:00:05 <smccann> i can go back and clean my own cruft if you'd prefer :-)
16:00:21 <lnovich> from the getting started?
16:01:00 <grundblom> lnovich, for the virt getting started guide, I was thinking I would remove 2.2, 2.2.1, and the boxes moving machines chapter
16:01:36 <lnovich> ok - comment those sections out and update the wiki that it was done
16:01:37 <grundblom> at least park the moving boxes VMs in a wiki page or something, and commenting it out for now
16:01:50 <grundblom> lnovich, right on!
16:03:47 <lnovich> ok so #action grundblom - remove the 2.2 and 2.2.1 by commenting out the XML
16:05:12 <lnovich> and grundblom will also update the wiki
16:09:54 * kirsti is leaving, see you tomorrow
16:10:10 <lnovich> #ACTION kirsti - will revise the getting started parts smccann menttioned
16:10:57 <lnovich> #ACTION laura - will go though the minutes and put together questions for the DOCs meeting and will finalize the outline for the getting started
16:11:28 <lnovich> ok folks - I think we're done!
16:11:45 <grundblom> thanks again lnovich! I appreciate it
16:11:45 <lnovich> thanks everyone
16:11:51 <lnovich> pleasure
16:11:57 <kirsti> thanks !
16:12:04 <lnovich> ok ending meeting
16:12:23 <lnovich> #endmeeting