19:09:16 <tatica> #startmeeting
19:09:16 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Jun  7 19:09:16 2011 UTC.  The chair is tatica. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:09:16 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:09:27 <tatica> #topic rollcall
19:09:36 * mizmo here
19:09:40 <tatica> hello and welcome to this your weekly design meeting!
19:09:50 * kirkB here
19:10:09 <tatica> in order to know who's with the blue side of the force, please say a kind "hello" and invoque all the jjedi forces!
19:10:16 * tatica o/
19:10:55 <tatica> how is that "ping all"?
19:11:02 <tatica> #chair mizmo
19:11:02 <zodbot> Current chairs: mizmo tatica
19:11:54 <mizmo> #pingall roll call, speak up if you're interested
19:12:05 <mizmo> or, meetbot could ignore me, that's cool too. i'm used to that.
19:12:20 <tatica> #pingall
19:12:24 <kirkB> This is the first meeting I've attended in person, so if there's something more I need to do just poke me
19:12:36 <gejoreni_> same here
19:12:38 <gejoreni_> :)
19:12:51 <tatica> well, as we are a small group I think we can do a sorta informal meeting
19:12:54 <mizmo> meetbot: pingall roll call, please say hello if you're around for the meeting
19:13:15 <mizmo> oh geez
19:13:18 <mizmo> meetbot isn't in here
19:13:20 <tatica> usually to ask to speak you use !
19:13:33 <tatica> and to end your intervention use a eof
19:13:46 <tatica> but again, I would rather this time be more informal
19:13:49 <msourada> looks like I missed the beginning, silly me :-D Greetings to all
19:13:57 <tatica> msourada, hello!
19:14:13 <tatica> anyway
19:14:28 <tatica> let's talk about our most important topic for the next couple of months
19:14:35 <tatica> #topic Fedora 16 artwork
19:15:03 <tatica> as you may know, we have been already working and trying some interesting ideas based on Julio Verne's books
19:15:19 <tatica> ixxvil, has put a lot of effort on that, creating some impressive hand draws
19:15:39 <mizmo> here is our schedule without dates filled in yet https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Schedule
19:15:43 <mizmo> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F16_Artwork/Schedule
19:15:51 <tatica> the idea (the one we have right now) is to use ixxvil draws and do a digital painting with them
19:15:53 <tatica> thx!
19:16:03 <mizmo> #link overall Fedora 16 release schedule with dates http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Releases/16/Schedule
19:16:31 <tatica> #link ixxvil draws and team painting http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/
19:16:43 <jsmith> There's also http://rbergero.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-16/f-16-design-tasks.html
19:16:53 <jsmith> (which can be adjusted by talking to rbergeron)
19:17:07 <tatica> so the idea is to chat a little bit about how we see this idea evolve and if we have some questions/ideas for it
19:17:47 <mizmo> and also talk about F16 tasks besides the wallpaper, right?
19:17:51 <tatica> ixxvil, should have a couple of extra draws for this week (right?)
19:18:10 <mizmo> on my list i have (1) F16 wallpaper (2) supplemental wallpapers for F16 - we need a volunteer to run this
19:18:18 <mizmo> (3) Anaconda UX
19:18:21 <mizmo> (4) ABRT UX
19:18:36 <tatica> finalzone, ocoutts welcome :)
19:18:42 <tatica> sure mizmo , we have time :)
19:18:45 <finalzone> thank you tatica
19:18:52 <msourada> jsmith: quick looks leads me to first problem - the alpha package is due after alpha freeze/branching, not good...
19:19:08 <tatica> so, does you guys/girls like/dislike how wallpaper ideas are going?
19:19:15 <ocoutts> tatica: Thanks!
19:19:18 <tatica> have any special requirement about artwork so far?
19:19:37 <mizmo> the concepts are awesome, the sketches are beautiful. i worry about final rendering but i always worry about that
19:19:48 <mizmo> its hard to know without seeing the final rendering if it will work well as a wallpaper or be too cluttered
19:19:53 <jsmith> msourada: I didn't create the schedule -- but yes, if you think things on the schedule need to be adjusted, please agree on them as a team and bring them to rbergeron
19:20:13 <kirkB> tatica, I like the underwater idea, and jellyfish are very mysterious.  I like the nautilus metaphor too.  Is it a problem that the orientation is portrait?
19:20:15 <mizmo> rbergeron, our schedule needs adjusting ^^
19:20:18 * tatica hopes rbergeron is reading :)
19:20:41 <tatica> kirkB, yes, I already ask ixxvil to draw an empty deep sea
19:20:45 * msourada likes http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/post/view/9
19:20:50 <mizmo> we have so many great sketches of different scenes, it would be cool to not only use one as the default, but also release them as a wallpaper pack
19:21:12 <tatica> yup, as I said before meeting... a suplementary verne's package
19:21:22 <tatica> there is a lot of amazing work in progress and we should use them all
19:21:25 <mizmo> kirkB, i think it's okay we probably want the area of interest aligned towards the right-hand side of the screen anway
19:21:45 <mizmo> so we could supplement with the empty deep sea that tatica mentioned, along the left side of the submarine image
19:21:48 <tatica> kirkB, there is an option B more radical... that ixxvil draw separatedly all elements from his draw and we put them together fitting a horizontal size
19:22:10 <mythcat> I think is some problems with that scene
19:22:20 <tatica> mythcat, go ahead
19:22:29 <mizmo> mythcat, we have a comments field underneath each drawing that you can add critique to btw
19:22:39 <mythcat> in 3D is easy because we have render engine
19:22:40 <msourada> jsmith: good point, I'll probably do a more through investigation post-meeting and propose the needed changes on design list.
19:22:53 <jsmith> msourada: Awesome, thanks :-)
19:23:01 <mythcat> but if we want put in another soft will be some problems
19:23:24 <mythcat> (like gimp or inkscape)
19:23:37 <mizmo> mythcat, the problem is that we don't have blender artists working on it
19:23:47 <mizmo> are there any blender artists here willing to render one of ixxvil's mockups in 3D?
19:24:04 <tatica> mythcat, we could do some tries with blender after we end up the sketch/coloring process
19:24:20 <tatica> mythcat, I could do the submarine, but the jellyfish will take me a lot of time
19:24:25 <mythcat> mizmo , i have a idea , just render the object and painting on the end
19:24:26 <tatica> I my ask kushal help
19:24:32 * tatica will explore that idea later
19:24:33 * msourada would prefer more artsy style for Verne than 3D renderings, but if you convince me with quality otherwise...
19:24:44 <tatica> msourada, +1
19:24:52 <mythcat> yes , i make one , but will be a low resolution
19:25:00 <mizmo> yeh i agree msourada i would like maybe a painterly look
19:25:12 <mizmo> mythcat, you could always do the wireframe and someone with more computing power could do the render
19:25:29 <tatica> ixxvil, 'r u there?
19:25:31 <mythcat> and will paint after ... yes wireframe
19:25:39 <mizmo> mythcat+1
19:25:53 <mizmo> he's probably busy sketching :)
19:26:10 <tatica> lol, yes
19:26:13 <tatica> anyway
19:26:21 <tatica> I think we all agree that this is a great idea to develop
19:26:38 <finalzone> yes
19:26:51 <finalzone> another idea to the mix at later stage
19:27:13 <finalzone> is to fully take advantage of dynamic wallpapers feature
19:27:21 <mizmo> finalzone+1
19:27:29 <tatica> interesting!
19:27:38 <tatica> well... I will ask you all to give a constant look to http://publictest04.fedoraproject.org/artboard/ and please, comment, critique, help and upload all your ideas
19:27:54 <tatica> ixxvil, and the rest of the team are uploading everything in there
19:27:55 <mizmo> maybe instead of doing the same wallpaper over time, we render all of ixxvil's sketches, and animated between the different scenes
19:28:03 <mizmo> we can totally do that
19:28:15 <tatica> that's going to take a lot of time... but is something that we can considerate
19:28:15 <msourada> but we need to keep in mind that only gnome supports dynamic wallpapers
19:28:22 <tatica> we haven't yet pain the first draw
19:28:27 <tatica> msourada, yes
19:28:38 <tatica> and not everyone uses gnome
19:28:46 <kirkB> I think the neat thing about dynamic wallpapers is the time awareness - could we have different versions that introduce varying levels of lightness and light sources?
19:28:49 <mizmo> yeh but its not a big loss if you dont have gnome
19:28:59 * msourada uses xfce since F15 for example >D
19:29:11 <tatica> we could just do some lights like kirkB says
19:29:15 <mizmo> rather than the alpha blending im saying, ixxvil's got say 4 different compositions. so one can be the early morning wallpaper, one can be late morning, one afternoon, one evening
19:29:17 <tatica> and keep the rest of the wallpapers as a special package
19:29:23 <mizmo> so it jsut switches there isnt a transition
19:29:36 <mythcat> i like gnome ... and xfce ...
19:29:40 <mizmo> if you have kde, you have one of them as default, but the other 3 will be in your wallpaper chooser if you want to switch manually
19:30:16 <mizmo> usually we do alpha blending between different colorations of the same exact composition
19:30:40 <mizmo> but it would be cool to try completely different compositions without the blend (and it wouldn't be any extra work, except writing the animation xml, which I can do really quickly)
19:30:53 <msourada> mizmo: I never thought about that! How neat. Same can be done for XFCE. LXDE is poorly supported, so does not matter much...
19:31:20 <tatica> :)
19:31:33 <mizmo> yeh :) it would rely on us digitally painting multiple of the wallpapers though
19:31:35 <mizmo> so it's a reach goal
19:31:43 <mizmo> we could always fall back to having one wallpaper if that's all we have time to polish
19:32:12 <tatica> in the worst case I like the way ixxvil last draw looks
19:32:16 <msourada> one thing about supplemental wallpapers: we gathered lots of images for F15, but after all noone made a selection, I propose we automatically copy them to F16 proposals
19:32:17 <tatica> like old ancient paper
19:32:28 <tatica> msourada, +1
19:32:30 <mizmo> how many sketches do we have now? we have (1) jelly fish and sub (2) octopus and gears (3) elephant  .... then ixxvil is also working on (4) floating island?
19:32:38 <mizmo> msourada +1
19:32:46 <mizmo> we need to find a volunteer to manage the f16 supplemental wallpapers
19:33:07 <mizmo> it might be cool too, since we have four concepts and 3 (4 soon) sketches from ixxvil, if folks who can do digital painting can each pick one to render
19:33:07 <kirkB> what's manage mean, to those of us who are new?
19:33:20 <kirkB> or we can talk about that when we switch topics
19:33:22 <mythcat> how many sketches is need ? i need more detail in objects
19:33:24 <mizmo> kirkB, i think i did a writeup explaining it, one sec and let me find it
19:33:28 <tatica> #info (1) jelly fish and sub (2) octopus and gears (3) elephant (4) floating island
19:33:51 <mythcat> octupus and nautilus ( very important)
19:34:15 <mizmo> kirkB, well i can't find the writeup. i will write one up and put it in the howtos section of the wiki
19:34:33 <mythcat> ... with nautilus from book of Verne
19:34:36 <mizmo> kirkB, but the basics: (1) announce the supplemental wallpaper process on planet.fedoraproject.org to try to get submissions, annouce it on deviant art too
19:34:38 <tatica> #action mizmo will try to make a wallpaper compositions with several daylights
19:34:55 <mizmo> tatica, no im not going to do that
19:35:00 <mizmo> thats not what i was proposing ...
19:35:03 <tatica> ok
19:35:10 <mizmo> i can do the XML file for the slideshow once the 4 wallpapers are done
19:35:15 <mizmo> but that'll be towards the end of the propcess
19:35:22 <tatica> ok
19:35:44 <mizmo> kirkB, (2) monitor the submissions wiki page, and if we don't have enough submissions (won't be a problem for f16) solicit more submissions by advertising on lists, twitter, identica, etc
19:36:04 <msourada> kirkB> IIRC it was: when the time is due, collect votes from design team members on what should be selected, based on them pick the few to be selected, mail their authors that they've been selected, verify license and when licensing is verified "stamp" the final selection so that someone (usually me) can put them into package.
19:36:09 <mizmo> kirkB, (3) at the deadline, start a thread on the design team list so we can vote on which wallpapers should go in
19:36:13 <mizmo> msourada++
19:37:06 <tatica> question, will be a design team vote or fedora general vote?
19:38:28 <msourada> mizmo: we should also let the people around desktop spins know that we'll occupy more of the CD/DVD space if we'll do the slideshow
19:38:42 <finalzone> tatica: vote related to wallpaper feedback?
19:38:48 <tatica> yup
19:38:50 <rbergeron> mizmo: i just landed at rdu
19:39:35 <rbergeron> i will read logs; i'm in westford next week if you want to look at fixes, or whatever. :)
19:39:45 * rbergeron will write this evening
19:40:04 <mizmo> msourada, yeh, i dont think it'll be a huge deal though because we've had 4 before
19:40:23 <mizmo> tatica, it should be a design team vote, and i very strongly recommend having it informal
19:40:34 <mizmo> the last time we did supplemental wallpapers we had an informal IRC vote and it went really well
19:40:42 <tatica> mizmo, at artboard (using comments)
19:40:43 <msourada> tatica: I believe it was usually discussion on list plus final vote on design team meeting, so basically whoever is present on those has the right to vote :D
19:40:54 <tatica> msourada, oki :D
19:40:57 <mizmo> tatica, we're not using the artboard for the supplementals
19:41:07 <tatica> (like artboard)
19:41:17 * tatica corrects herself :$
19:41:29 <mizmo> yeh then based on the discussion if you can't make the meeting, you can still have a say on the mailing list
19:41:32 <mizmo> i think its the best way
19:41:38 <tatica> yup
19:41:50 <mizmo> #https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_manage_the_supplemental_wallpaper_process  i put together a rough skeleton of the supplemental wallpaper management duties
19:41:53 <mizmo> er
19:41:56 <mizmo> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_to_manage_the_supplemental_wallpaper_process
19:42:00 <mizmo> we do still need a volunteer for that
19:42:08 <msourada> mizmo: it's problem if we say it to them to late, unless someone tells them it's gonna be 4x bigger than it is right now, they'll shout when we commit the changes...
19:42:25 <mizmo> msourada, how late do you think we can tell them?
19:42:35 * tatica can take it
19:42:38 <mizmo> msourada, im (maybe sadly) not confident we could have 4 final renderings
19:42:40 <tatica> supplementary
19:42:45 <mizmo> it depends on folks' interest
19:42:48 <mizmo> okay great tatica
19:42:49 <mizmo> :)
19:42:58 <tatica> I already did it last release, but I had too many task with the wallpaper
19:43:02 <tatica> so I didn't do a proper job
19:43:06 <mizmo> yeh please dont overload yourself
19:43:07 * tatica will try to make it better this time
19:43:15 <mizmo> if youd rather work on the wallpaper it might be better to leave supplementals to someone else
19:43:27 <tatica> I'm not investing too much at wallpaper this time
19:43:31 <mizmo> one thing about managing supplementals is that it's a good task for someone who is interested in artwork, but not confident in their drawing abilities
19:43:42 <finalzone> will it be better to have two people managing wallpaper process?
19:43:42 <mizmo> youre really good at drawing tatica so you might enjoy the wallpaper task better but its up to you
19:43:44 <tatica> ixxvil, is taking the 60% of the job and the team will present several draws
19:43:55 <mizmo> finalzone, i think that we're going to have 4 sketches (we have 3 now)
19:44:00 <tatica> mizmo, I don't have internet at nights... so I will use that improductive time :D
19:44:08 <mizmo> finalzone, so i think maybe a good approach for the wallpapers is to have 4 people, one for each one
19:44:10 <msourada> mizmo: For them it's better when previously occupied space is freed than the other way round. I'm not sure, but we should probably tell them as soon as possible that we want to do it, but that there is possibility that we won't...
19:44:15 * tatica takes her light saber!!!
19:44:16 <mizmo> or two people, each digitally painting 2 of the 4
19:44:30 <mizmo> msourada, okay cool. how do you think is the best way to tell them?
19:44:33 * mizmo a little intimidated :(
19:44:43 <tatica> well, we only have 15 min
19:44:45 <mizmo> tatica, lol no internet makes me very productive
19:45:12 <tatica> and I will like to talk a little bit about the rest of things that envolves the design team besides a Release Artwork
19:45:30 <mythcat> "2 of the 4" very low ...
19:45:39 <tatica> maybe all of us will work in some way (or not) with this release
19:45:49 <mizmo> the others things we had on the plate for F16 was the Anaconda UX redesign, the ABRT UX redesign
19:45:49 <tatica> but maybe those who read the meeting log wont
19:45:50 <tatica> so
19:46:19 <tatica> like a reminder
19:46:21 <mizmo> kirkB, where are you at with the ABRT UX redesign? what do you have so far, and where would you ideally see yourself if it was finished?
19:46:21 <msourada> mizmo: mail to their mailing list should do the trick for gnome and xfce, for kde we could probably just tell it (either via irc or mail) to kevin, rex or jiri
19:46:39 <mizmo> msourada, okay i can take care of the mailing then
19:46:55 <mizmo> msourada, what about lxde?
19:47:01 <tatica> remember that we also have some tickets open
19:47:09 <finalzone> mizmo: one person per wallpaper sounds logical
19:47:21 <tatica> https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/report/1
19:47:42 <msourada> mizmo: at the moment we don't show up our wallpapers in lxde's bg chooser, and I have no idea how to do that. Plus, lxde is managed by the same people as xfce
19:47:49 <tatica> and also some event where we can help with t-shirt, banners, posters.. etc (Fudcon, release parties, etc)
19:47:55 <mizmo> msourada, ah okay cool so if xfce knows we're good
19:48:21 <tatica> #topic open floor
19:48:37 <kirkB> mizmo, the usability review is going to be a document that includes recommendations, some mockups, and some rationale
19:48:55 <kirkB> I've finished with the main screen, and am now going through the submission process
19:49:02 <msourada> mizmo: also, keep in mind that while for gnome it means dynamic wallpaper, for KDE probably four wallpapers (but all included by default, I'm not sure if KDE supports some kind of slide-show) and for xfce four wallpapers included by default.
19:49:23 <mizmo> kirkB, by finished with main screen, do you mean you did a heuristic review of the main screen? or a mockup?
19:49:33 <kirkB> both
19:49:39 <mizmo> kirkB, oh okay great
19:49:50 <kirkB> in the end the recommendations were enough to merit a mockup to help illustrate the points
19:49:54 <mizmo> kirkB, do you have a writeup of the heuristic review results too, or did you just implicitly include that in the mockups
19:50:24 <kirkB> not sure I'd call it a heurisitc review, as I haven't idnetified any specific heurisitics I used - just judgement (hence including my rationale)
19:50:36 <mizmo> kirkB, ahh okie
19:50:44 <kirkB> no, mokcup doesn't include rationale
19:50:48 <mizmo> kirkB, so rather than review everything, then mockup everything, you're doing review+mockup screen-by-screen
19:50:51 <kirkB> the two are embedded in the odt report doc
19:51:11 <mizmo> so maybe it would make sense to set milestones screen-by-screen
19:51:19 <mizmo> like your first milestone would be the main screen, and you completed that
19:51:24 <kirkB> I did an initial review of all screens, took notes.  Now creating a report that includes recommendations and am putting rationale in too, to support the recommendations and help explain where I'm coming from
19:51:35 <mythcat> ...about working with wallpapers and blender 3D ...
19:51:48 <mizmo> ahh okay, so really you just have to mock up the remaining screens besides the main screen, and you're complete?
19:52:00 <mythcat> it is possible to set up "artboard" to put .blend files
19:52:01 <mythcat> ?
19:52:16 <kirkB> yes - will only mokcup if there is a need though.  Don't want to mockup if there's just a small change on a screen, for example.
19:52:39 <mythcat> is more easy to read by the team
19:52:42 <mizmo> mythcat, no, it doesn't support them :( but you could post a low res render, and attach to the artboard render a .blend on fedorapeople.org
19:53:04 <mizmo> kirkB, okay cool, so of the 100% ideal finished state, just gut feeling, where do you think you're at percentage wise?
19:53:12 <kirkB> So tasks remaining: 1) take review notes and expand into recommendations/rationale in report  2) mockup any screens/interactions needed to support the recommendations
19:53:20 <mythcat> mizmo , i need to share .blend file to the blender users
19:53:40 <mythcat> is hard to put on the internet ...
19:53:44 <mizmo> mythcat, yeh so post the .blend to your fedorapeople.org space, then post a render of the blend to the artboard, and paste the fedorapeople.org/blend URL on the render
19:53:48 <kirkB> 40% - the submission process was spread across a lot of screens and the preferences config is a bit that needs help too.
19:54:02 <kirkB> I suspect a couple more mockups, though that's just a suspicion
19:54:05 <mythcat> ok , let's try then
19:54:20 <mizmo> kirkB, oh okay great
19:54:30 <mizmo> kirkB, so we could do your #1 and #2 as milestones
19:54:38 <kirkB> yes
19:54:43 <mizmo> then i guess passing the report over to the developers would be milestone #3
19:54:49 <mizmo> well
19:54:52 <tatica> http://www.renderweb.org/index.html
19:54:54 <mizmo> maybe showing to the design team first for review
19:55:07 <mizmo> so #1 review notes expansion => recommendations/rationale
19:55:12 <mizmo> #2 any needed mockups
19:55:17 <kirkB> if I had a magic wand, I'd get their feedback pronto to make sure what I'm doing is helpful.  Hate to run through this to give them something they look at with a puzzled expression on their faces
19:55:17 <mizmo> #3 share with design team for review / feedback
19:55:21 <mizmo> #4 pass over to developers
19:55:31 <mizmo> kirkB, if you want i can try to engage with them right now
19:55:38 <mizmo> are they being responsive or do you need me to poke them for ya?
19:56:10 <kirkB> I'm in #abrt right now and haven't seen any response to my question I posted a few weeks back.
19:56:30 <mizmo> okay ill try to poke them and see what's up
19:56:31 <kirkB> I could be pestering them more, but only recently finished the mockup and wanted that before getting their feedback
19:56:39 <mythcat> what is the renderweb , tatica ?
19:56:45 <kirkB> I think getting their feedback on what I have for the first screen would be very useful
19:56:58 <mizmo> cool, and the link to that screen is on the ticket right?
19:57:03 <tatica> mythcat, is a net to render files through FB
19:57:13 <kirkB> not yet, I can upload the prelim report to the ticket if that's the way to go
19:57:15 <mythcat> i hate FB
19:57:19 * tatica too
19:57:21 <mythcat> thanks
19:57:23 <mizmo> kirkB, yeh definitely! posting stuff early and often is always a good idea
19:57:25 <tatica> mythcat, but is a clever idea to render with a farm
19:57:29 <mizmo> ive love to take a look at what you've got too
19:57:35 <kirkB> agreed - and the best way to do that is the ticket?
19:57:41 <mizmo> kirkB, yep i think so, ticket++
19:57:45 <kirkB> ok, ticket it is then
19:57:49 <mizmo> so based on these milestones we just discussed
19:57:58 <tatica> fill the ticket! but reply some! :D
19:58:06 <mizmo> ill try to talk schedule with the abrt folks and see where they are thinking stuff will line up on the calendar
19:58:20 <mythcat> I will try with something else :)
19:58:21 <mizmo> and try to take a first stab at some reasonable dates on the milestones for you
19:58:27 <mizmo> sonud reasonable (and helpful) kirkB?
19:59:09 <kirkB> yes, very
19:59:13 <mizmo> yay :)
19:59:15 <mizmo> cool
19:59:27 <mizmo> the other thing left to discuss was anaconda UX
19:59:34 <mizmo> how are you doing gejoreni?
19:59:40 <gejoreni_> doing well
20:00:26 <mizmo> gejoreni_, i read your plan for user testing this morning - it looks great
20:00:27 <finalzone> i saw the anaconda UX mockup, interesting
20:00:36 <mizmo> gejoreni, what i would suggest as next steps are:
20:00:54 <gejoreni_> great, I think it will provide a lot of great insight
20:00:56 <mizmo> gejoreni, #1 post it to the wiki, create a new page under the Anaconda UX page (maybe 'User testing plan')
20:01:07 <mizmo> gejoreni, #2 go do it! :)
20:01:13 <mizmo> do you blog at all gejoreni?
20:01:27 <mizmo> oh maybe #3 go do it, #2 let's show it to the anaconda guys and just get them on the same page
20:01:29 <gejoreni_> not very good at it, planning to start
20:01:35 <tatica> our meeting is over :(
20:01:44 <finalzone> already?
20:01:46 <mizmo> gejoreni, kk, if you want, i can blog your testing plan for you, so it shows up on planet.fedoraproject.org
20:01:50 <tatica> yeah, lol
20:01:58 <tatica> I will just end it "formally" and we can keep the topic
20:02:00 <tatica> oka?
20:02:00 <kirkB> Initial report is up in ticket - any and all feedback is welcome: https://fedorahosted.org/design-team/ticket/180
20:02:03 <mizmo> gejoreni, and get you some feedback, so you dont have to rush into getting comfortable bloggable
20:02:06 <mizmo> tatica, actually dont
20:02:11 <mizmo> tatica, id really appreciate this discussion being in the logs
20:02:15 <tatica> ok
20:02:17 <mizmo> thanks :)
20:02:23 <mizmo> kirkB++! thanks!!!!
20:02:32 <mizmo> kirkB, do you mind if i blog about your efforts on planet.fedoraproject.org?
20:02:42 <mythcat> tatica , maybe team will make a render farm in the future :)
20:02:43 <kirkB> not at all
20:02:46 <mizmo> yay :)
20:02:46 <gejoreni_> does Fedora have a blog server?
20:02:54 <mizmo> gejoreni_, we used to, it's getting shut down :(
20:03:02 <mizmo> gejoreni, what i do is i use wordpress.com
20:03:17 <mizmo> then when you log into your fedorapeople.org shell account, you can create a file there that will add your wordpress blog to planet.fedoraproject.org
20:03:20 <mizmo> (make sense?)
20:03:47 <kirkB> mizmo, I'm not an official member of the design team yet, the ABRT review is my first task
20:03:47 <gejoreni_> mizmo, my next step is to write a formal plan with scripts etc.
20:04:13 <mizmo> kirkB, ah you've done enough work already though, i would be happy to add you
20:04:14 <gejoreni_> I will upload that
20:04:37 <kirkB> excellent, thanks
20:04:38 <mizmo> gejoreni, well i think what you wrote up in your email to me would be a good first post though
20:04:57 <gejoreni_> ok, first post it is :)
20:04:59 <mizmo> gejoreni, cuz you'd want to share it with the anaconda guys and it'd be good to have in the wiki
20:05:09 <gejoreni_> ok
20:05:10 <mizmo> let me get you the right url to post it on
20:05:31 <finalzone> question about anaconda ux related to
20:05:35 <finalzone> http://linuxgrrl.com/fedora-ux/Projects/Anaconda/Prototypes/hubandspoke-preview8.png
20:06:04 <mizmo> gejoreni, okay post it here: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Anaconda/UX_Redesign/Testing_Plan&action=edit&redlink=1
20:06:16 <finalzone> is there a consideration for say multiple user? The mockup seems to apply to single user
20:06:33 <mizmo> gejoreni, once you have it posted, i think we should figure out a time to storm #anaconda and bring it up to them
20:06:35 <mythcat> bye ...
20:06:56 <mizmo> gejoreni, if they are agreeable then i think that's a good time to dive into the script (make sense?)
20:06:58 <gejoreni_> ok, I will upload it tonight
20:06:59 <mythcat> sorry , but I have work
20:07:04 <mizmo> mythcat, sure see ya
20:07:06 <gejoreni_> (still at work now)
20:07:10 <finalzone> bye mythcat
20:07:11 <mythcat> see ya ...
20:07:26 <mizmo> finalzone, well how we do multiple users today, is that you create one user when you install, then you add additional users once you've got the machine installed and booted
20:07:32 <mizmo> there is an accounts dialog where you can add new users
20:07:47 <mizmo> finalzone, do you think it would be better to allow multiple user creation during install?
20:07:51 * mizmo not sure how common that is
20:08:04 <mizmo> kirkB, working on adding you to the group now in the account system
20:08:32 <gejoreni_> mizmo, quite the multi tasker
20:08:33 <finalzone> mizmo, multiple user creation is better on post installation
20:08:56 <mizmo> kirkB, you're in :)
20:09:09 <mizmo> finalzone, okay cool
20:09:25 <kirkB> I believe Ubuntu provides the ability to create additional user accounts during the install process (or they did last time I installed Ubuntu).  I think Windows does as well.
20:09:27 <mizmo> gejoreni, lol
20:09:49 <finalzone> kirkB, Windows does that on post installation
20:09:50 <gejoreni_> I'm impressed
20:09:58 <mizmo> oh like during firstboot
20:10:03 <finalzone> yup
20:10:07 <kirkB> The steps required to create multiple accounts post-installation - are they much more complex and time consuming than if we simply added an optional step during install?
20:10:27 <mizmo> kirkB, nope, we'd probably use the same exact dialog in the installer
20:10:34 <mizmo> its really easy to add new users post install
20:11:12 <mizmo> my (potentially extremely paranoid) worry, is if you let people create multiple accounts during install...
20:11:21 <mizmo> they might forget they created additional accounts... for a really long time
20:11:35 <mizmo> once i set up a 'demo' account on my laptop, i totally forgot about it, and the password was 'foobar'
20:11:36 <kirkB> I guess it comes down to frequency - how often is someone installing and wanting multiple users?  If frequent then I'd suggest during install.  If not, then post.
20:11:43 <mizmo> it had ssh access and everything o_O
20:12:00 <finalzone> what about setup xguest/
20:12:03 <finalzone> ?
20:12:13 <mizmo> i could see someone setting up a family computer wanting multiple users, but 'family computer' isn't really our target audience right now
20:12:39 <gejoreni_> I can ask some of these questions during the ethn
20:12:40 <mizmo> so i wouldn't see it being a task desirable to many users (although for the family set, it would be frequent)
20:13:04 <mizmo> gejoreni++ that would be excellent. add a question item for whether or not they typically have mutliple accounts on their machine, and if so what for
20:13:19 <gejoreni_> mizmo, if you have a list of good questions like this, throw them at me and I can try to include them
20:13:22 <mizmo> finalzone, xguest... is that the selinux sandbox account?
20:13:53 <finalzone> mizmo, yes. I found it useful for a demo presentation
20:13:54 <mizmo> gejoreni, sure! what we could do too (which always, always gathers a lot of good feedback) is of course a blog post, once you've got an initial set of questions, we can post them to planet fedora and see what folks suggest in the comments
20:14:18 <finalzone> mizmo: once you install that package, it automatically create a guest account
20:14:36 <mizmo> gejoreni, for example when i posted the gnome shell usability test plan i must hvae gotten 100 comments of suggestions lol http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/gnome-shell-usability-test-plan/
20:14:57 <mizmo> okay so we have two question ideas for you gejoreni:
20:15:05 <finalzone> i imagine the use for some internet cafe
20:15:17 <gejoreni_> very cool, thanks for the link
20:15:21 <mizmo> #idea ask target users about their systems and multiple accounts. do they have multiple accounts? if so, how do they dole them out?
20:15:40 <mizmo> #idea ask target users if they let anyone borrow their computer. would a 'guest account' be useful for them?
20:16:00 <msourada> hope I'm not breaking your discussion too much, but: I noticed the "destination" slide is a bit too simple. Looking at it, I'd guess it would totally wipe out my partitioning (two /'s, one /home, one /boot)... I really like to have it to still have some "custom partitioning" kind of button
20:16:03 <mizmo> finalzone, ah definitely
20:16:14 <mizmo> msourada, that section isn't anywhere near finished :)
20:16:24 <msourada> mizmo: ah, cool
20:16:27 <mizmo> msourada, storage selection is going ot be a multi-page wizard most likely
20:16:37 <mizmo> it's the hardest section so i haven't really started yet lol, finished the easy ones first
20:17:09 <mizmo> gejoreni, do you have any questions or do you think you have a good direction?
20:17:59 <gejoreni_> I am good
20:18:02 <gejoreni_> yourself?
20:18:45 <mizmo> well, on my side, im hoping to have more time this week to dive into the storage portion of the mockups like i was just telling msourada :)
20:18:54 <mizmo> i was thinking a multi page wizard for that section since it's pretty complex
20:18:58 <gejoreni_> mizmo, would the blog be a good place to call for anaconda related questions
20:19:18 <mizmo> i am going to talk to the gnome developers hopefully this week too and get their feedback on what we have so far
20:19:36 <mizmo> gejoreni, blog to ask users the ethnographic questions?
20:19:47 <gejoreni_> no
20:19:58 <gejoreni_> to have people suggest questions
20:20:08 <gejoreni_> i.e. how many users
20:20:10 <gejoreni_> sorry
20:21:22 <msourada> mizmo: an idea: if there's already existing layout, hide the difference between physical partitions (sans lvm-initialized) and virtual (lvm) from the user (unless he wants to play with the layout himself)
20:21:27 <mizmo> gejoreni, ohhhh yes
20:21:29 <mizmo> gejoreni, absolutely
20:21:51 <mizmo> gejoreni, so kind of similar to the link i showed you - i posted a set of gnome usability test tasks, and asked for feedback and additional task suggestions
20:22:04 <mizmo> gejoreni, in the same way you (or i, whatever you'd like) could post an initial set of ethnographic questions for anaconda
20:22:13 <mizmo> gejoreni, and ask folks reading the blog for suggestions on additional questions
20:22:15 <mizmo> gejoreni++
20:22:31 <msourada> mizmo: basically, if possible, handling partitions directly instead of physical media might be less confusing, I believe.
20:23:26 <gejoreni_> mizmo, ok, great. I think this will be a lot of fun.
20:24:33 <mizmo> msourada, yeh, making it as simple as possible to understand and hiding that virtual vs physical complexity i think it a good idea
20:24:36 <mizmo> gejoreni, yay :)
20:24:47 <msourada> mizmo: also, users from windows are used to refer to C:, D:, F:. etc., not Seagate Barracuda 500GB, ... :-D
20:24:53 <mizmo> gejoreni, so do you think you will set up a blog? i am happy to help you connect it to planet fedora
20:25:12 <gejoreni_> I will get started tonight, I will probably send you another update, however, from there out you should be able to just follow the blog unless I need something specific
20:26:02 * finalzone thinks C: D: F: is so achaic to make users look dumb
20:26:05 <mizmo> gejoreni, okay great
20:26:17 <mizmo> gejoreni, it's important to connect the blog to planet fedora though otherwise nobody will see it
20:26:23 <kirkB> mizmo, are there instructions on how to connect blogs to PF?  I have my own that I'd be interested in posting some items to PF ...
20:26:41 <mizmo> kirkB, absolutely, let me find them... it's basically ssh into fedorapeople.org, then making a .planet file
20:26:42 <mizmo> one sec
20:26:43 <gejoreni_> Yes, that would be nice
20:26:45 <kirkB> such as the ABRT usability assessment stuff
20:27:08 <kirkB> can you choose to post only some of the posts from the blog?  or is it all of them?
20:27:23 <msourada> finalzone: LOL, it's retarded, I like the *nix side better, but maybe more confusing to girl scouts ;-)
20:27:28 <gejoreni_> mizmo, good talking. If there is nothing else urgent I have to go
20:27:51 <ixxvil> mizmo, tatica check
20:27:57 <ixxvil> artboard
20:28:11 <msourada> finalzone: I was basically just supporting the idea that the basic building "block" is partition, not physical harddisk
20:28:29 <tatica> ixxvil, I'm your #1 fan
20:28:37 <mizmo> kirkB, yep you can do only some of them
20:28:40 * tatica names herself " ixxvil padawan"
20:28:52 <ixxvil> :D
20:28:53 <mizmo> kirkB, if you use wordpress, you can tag your posts 'fedora' then only post the 'fedora' tag rss feed to planet fedora
20:28:53 <gejoreni_> kirkb, if you need to throw something against another usability person, feel free to contact me.
20:28:56 <mizmo> gejoreni, sure see you around
20:29:06 <ixxvil> i'd like to keep the elephant in that color, and then you guys can color around it maybe?
20:29:18 <MarkDude> Girl scouts? <sigh> that ragdoll idea is still being tossed around?
20:29:33 <mizmo> ixxvil, OMG gorgeous
20:29:36 <mizmo> MarkDude, huh?
20:29:44 * MarkDude maybe should set IRC to highlight GS when it is said
20:29:54 <ixxvil> needs any modifications?
20:29:59 <kirkB> gejoreni, thanks!  Love to hear your thoughts on the draft I posted when you have some spare time
20:29:59 <ixxvil> i drew a map on the right
20:30:05 <ixxvil> like an old map style
20:30:12 <mizmo> kirkB, here are all the planet instructions https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Planet#How_to_join_the_Planet
20:30:19 <mizmo> i love the map ixxvil
20:30:21 <msourada> mizmo, MarkDude, that was aimed at me :-D Well, I liked it, so I still use it :-D
20:30:23 <ixxvil> sweet
20:30:25 <kirkB> mizmo, thanks!
20:30:37 <mizmo> kirkB, let me know if you need any help with them
20:30:40 <ixxvil> sooo tatica  mizmo  guess im done with the elephant
20:30:50 <ixxvil> i'll start on the floating island tonight
20:30:55 <MarkDude> mizmo, msourada dont worry - no tirade here
20:30:58 <mizmo> msourada, i really take the girl scouts comments personally
20:31:03 <mizmo> would appreciate not seeing them
20:31:04 <gejoreni_> ixxvil, very cool
20:31:12 <tatica> ixxvil, :D
20:31:15 <ixxvil> gejoreni_: thx
20:31:15 <MarkDude> its a charged phrase
20:31:22 <MarkDude> for me at least
20:31:25 <ixxvil> on the map there's fedora btw
20:31:26 <ixxvil> :P
20:31:34 <mizmo> working your ass off on something and then having it the laughing stock of people you thought were your friends = very charged
20:31:35 <gejoreni_> kirkb, my email is gejoreni@gmail.com
20:32:56 <ixxvil> btw the details are not very visible there, so if you get stuck let me know
20:33:21 <msourada> mizmo: you shouldn't. Everything two-word thing describing a certain group of users is bound to fail when taken objectively... I don't think, nicu wanted to offend someone, he just needed some metaphor. And some of us actually liked that metaphor...
20:33:50 <MarkDude> msourada, maybe use the phrase scouts
20:34:03 <MarkDude> that would include my nephew also
20:34:09 <MarkDude> not JUST MY NIECE
20:34:20 <mizmo> msourada, even if it's not meant to offend, when it is continued when i made it clear that it is very hurtful - then it's offending purposefully
20:34:22 <MarkDude> if the point is about children
20:34:36 <MarkDude> make the point about children
20:34:41 <mizmo> yes!
20:34:44 <mizmo> gender should have nothing to do with it
20:34:53 <mizmo> because females are not less capable
20:35:04 <msourada> MarkDude: that's way too short. Anyway, the original point was "users who know next to nothing about computers"
20:35:04 <MarkDude> there is ZERO reason  for it to be only women/girls
20:35:18 * MarkDude suggests new users
20:35:37 * MarkDude assumes you would just say Grandma when talking about old people
20:35:46 <MarkDude> as oppesed to grandparents
20:36:01 <MarkDude> Language means stuff
20:36:14 <kirkB> is this going into the meetingbot meeting minutes?
20:36:21 <MarkDude> The use of girl/women in relation
20:36:30 <kirkB> not really related to this meeting
20:36:50 <mizmo> msourada, girl scouts do not know 'next to nothing about computers'
20:36:55 <tatica> mizmo, can we close the meeting?
20:36:57 <MarkDude> to not experienced people- assumes that men/boys are more capable
20:36:59 <mizmo> yeh it's a good idea now
20:37:00 <msourada> mizmo: females are not less capable, that's true, yet, in certain aspects they are better than males and vice versa, on average. There are exceptions, but how do you explain that there is e.g. no female mathematician so far awarded with Field's medal...
20:37:02 <mizmo> we're pretty much wrapped up
20:37:04 <tatica> #endmeeting