19:01:43 <mizmo> #startmeeting
19:01:43 <zodbot> Meeting started Tue Dec 14 19:01:43 2010 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01:43 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
19:01:46 <mizmo> #topic roll call
19:01:48 <mizmo> who's about?
19:01:58 * schendje waves
19:01:58 <tatica> o/
19:02:03 * nicubunu here
19:02:05 <mizmo> yay
19:02:56 <mizmo> hey Emichan_
19:03:03 * t2hot here
19:03:16 <Emichan_> hi mizmo! :)
19:03:39 <mizmo> okay lets get started we have critical mass!
19:03:41 <mizmo> #topic Fedora 15 supplemental wallpaper submissions - how are we doing?
19:03:46 <mizmo> its a good question cuz i have no idea :) let's look
19:03:56 <mizmo> #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Submissions
19:04:01 <nicubunu> we have a page and a few uploads
19:04:06 <mizmo> no new submissions since last week though
19:04:13 <mizmo> i wonder if we should advertise
19:04:24 <mizmo> like send messages to FLOSS-affiliated deviant art teams
19:04:35 <mizmo> and prominent CC & FLOSS-friendly phototogs on flickr
19:04:57 <mizmo> ill send an identi.ca nag now hehe
19:05:16 <nicubunu> last release we had a healthy amount of photos without much advertising
19:05:21 <jimmac> howdy everyone
19:05:31 * jimmac is fashionably late
19:05:55 <mizmo> well
19:06:04 <mizmo> true
19:06:06 <mizmo> maybe not needed
19:06:12 <mizmo> hey jimmac
19:06:22 <mizmo> okay so we're doing pretty good on the supplemental wallpaper front
19:06:33 <mizmo> #topic FUDcon Tempe T-shirt design status update
19:06:41 <mizmo> Emichan_ and I just got an email from Robyn this morning
19:06:49 <mizmo> Robyn has been in contact with a tshirt screenprinter in Tempe
19:07:09 <mizmo> #link http://www.brandxstore.com/
19:07:31 <mizmo> it takes them 8 business days to turn around an hour
19:07:36 <mizmo> er
19:07:39 <mizmo> s/hour/order
19:07:56 <mizmo> Emichan_, what do you think?
19:08:51 <Emichan_> sorry - i'm distracted :P
19:08:58 <mizmo> its all good
19:09:06 <mizmo> we could come back to it
19:09:08 <Emichan_> it seems reasonable to me, but I don't print loads of shirts very often so...
19:09:36 <Emichan_> it's okay, just fail at multitasking - phone is off now :)
19:09:39 <mizmo> lol
19:09:54 <mizmo> do you have any new mockups? or do you think go with the first dea?
19:10:03 <mizmo> they're looking for some kind of comp to give Robyn a quote
19:10:33 <Emichan_> i think my second idea is not working out and will be too complicated for a t-shirt anyway, so if everyone's okay with it, let's use the first idea!
19:10:44 <Emichan_> I like it, anyway...
19:10:51 <schendje> Emichan_: i'm cool with that, it looks great
19:10:53 <mizmo> i *love* it
19:10:58 <nicubunu> what was the second idea?
19:11:00 <schendje> we may need to make some adjustments to the logo and such
19:11:55 <mizmo> my guess is the t shirt folks are looking to see, the t-shirt background, number of inks needed, professionalism of the design (e.g., is it low-res MS word clipart or easy-to-work with nicely done stuff, we've got the latter :) )
19:12:03 <Emichan_> my second idea was to do a block print-style desert landscape.
19:12:12 <mizmo> Emichan_, would you mind sending Robyn your favorite comp to pass on to brandx?
19:12:28 <Emichan_> mizmo - no problem :)
19:12:30 <mizmo> yay
19:12:43 <mizmo> #action Emichan to send comp to Robyn for BrandX tshirt quote
19:12:43 <mizmo> kk
19:12:46 <mizmo> next topic
19:12:48 <mizmo> #topic Fedora RPG
19:12:49 <mizmo> so
19:12:53 <mizmo> i haven't made any progress on this
19:12:57 <mizmo> last week we hadn't made any progress
19:13:03 <nicubunu> me neither
19:13:09 <Emichan_> me neither :/
19:13:10 <mizmo> but i got a special request to do some more mockups for it by my manager :)
19:13:13 <mizmo> in time for fudcon tempe
19:13:28 <mizmo> so i'll probably put some time into it maybe the first or second week of Jan
19:13:33 <mizmo> so thats my little update there
19:13:52 <mizmo> if anybody wants to work on it with me
19:14:05 <mizmo> ill probably give a shout on the mailing list the beginning of january
19:14:09 <mizmo> and set up shop in here
19:14:20 <mizmo> sound good?
19:14:25 <Emichan_> sounds good - after the holidays ++
19:14:29 <nicubunu> ok
19:14:32 <mizmo> yay
19:14:35 <mizmo> okay so the next topic
19:14:39 <Infurnoz> Yeah after the holidays would be great
19:14:42 <mizmo> #topic F15 wallpaper sketch session :)
19:15:00 <mizmo> okay so first i want to tell you something
19:15:14 <mizmo> so we're going to be doing a wallpaper for Fedora 15
19:15:28 <mizmo> but, we have GNOME 3 as pretty much our most prominent Fedora 15 feature
19:15:46 <mizmo> and remember i had an action item to talk to those folks about what would make a good wallpaper to work with the shell
19:15:51 <mizmo> cuz it's going to be the default for F15
19:16:00 <mizmo> well, i got a special request from them
19:16:28 <mizmo> they would like the wallpaper for the gnome desktop in Fedora 15 to be the upstream GNOME wallpaper.... for F15 only, as sort of a special-edition / celebrating the first distro release of GNOME 3
19:16:34 <mizmo> what do you think about the request?
19:16:58 <mizmo> they have a challenge in that they would like to set a recognizable GNOME visual style
19:16:59 <nicubunu> i am highly against it
19:17:08 <mizmo> but its hard to do that when distros have distro-specific wallpapers
19:17:11 <Emichan_> but... but.... steampunk robots in love...
19:17:27 <mizmo> we can still do that, but it would be on the DVD and the spins
19:17:53 <schendje> so the shell alone wouldn't be recognizable enough?
19:17:59 <nicubunu> the place where nobody is looking at
19:18:10 <mizmo> whatever design we come up with too will be featured on fedoraproject.org, in the bootup splashes, in the paper materials (the disc sleeves, flyers, etc.)
19:18:21 <mizmo> well to be fair the DVD download is pretty popular :)
19:18:28 <mizmo> so i wouldn't say nobody is looking at it
19:18:31 <nicubunu> that's part of the ongoing move of the desktop guys to kill our team
19:18:49 <mizmo> schendje, well it's a really big deal for the GNOME 3 team, because we are going to be the first distro to ship GNOME 3 by default
19:18:53 <t2hot> ... DVDs not popular here
19:19:17 <mizmo> schendje, it's basically going to be the very first consumable release of GNOME 3 as a complete OS
19:19:37 <mizmo> schendje, so just for this grand opening release, they thought having the gnome upstream wallpaper would be nice to kind of complete the whole picture
19:20:01 <nicubunu> and it will NOT be blue?
19:20:09 <mizmo> nicubunu, i dont think so, the thing that is different now than what has happened before is that as part of my full-time job at red hat, i keep this team running
19:20:28 <mizmo> nicubunu, having the design team for Fedora is really important enough that i'm paid to make sure it's going
19:20:38 <Emichan_> mizmo, is it the vertical striped wp that's part of the current g-s mockups?
19:20:59 <mizmo> nicubunu, and owen and jon were very friendly in reaching out and asking what we think about it. if there was any ill-will here they could have not let us know this far ahead of time and slipped it in last-minute. i think they are trying to do the right thing here
19:21:08 <mizmo> nicubunu, it is actually blue, jimmac designed it, it's pretty nice
19:21:09 <mizmo> one sec
19:21:17 <mizmo> http://git.gnome.org/browse/gnome-themes-standard/plain/themes/Adwaita/backgrounds/stripes.jpg
19:21:21 <mizmo> inkscape-created i'm sure
19:21:26 <schendje> mizmo: yeah i see where they're coming from, and I also don't have anything against the wallpaper itself (i quite like it) but it's still scary
19:21:44 <mizmo> it's a gorgeous wallpaper
19:21:59 <mizmo> owen made it pretty clear this would just be a one-time thing
19:22:05 <schendje> so visually, fedora 15 will look exactly like standard gnome?
19:22:10 <mizmo> the thing is, a lot of people who have never used fedora before are going to be trying out Fedora 15 to see GNOME 3
19:22:32 <mizmo> schendje, the desktop, yeah... but the various splashes are still going to be fedora
19:22:39 <mizmo> e.g., the anaconda artwork, the firstboot artwork, etc
19:22:54 <mizmo> when people boot it up, the first thing they are gonna see with the live media is the fedora syslinux
19:23:16 <mizmo> also
19:23:27 <mizmo> we can of course include the default wallpaper we design for the other spins in the background capplet by default
19:23:36 <mizmo> in Fedora 14 we shipped supplemental wallpapers as an extra package, right?
19:23:40 <schendje> hmmm that will be weird, no? then you might as well put the gnome 3 wallpaper *everywhere* instead of switching
19:23:44 <nicubunu> yes
19:23:47 <mizmo> we'll make sure for F15 that the wallpaper we create will be installed by default
19:23:58 <mizmo> schendje, well the problem with putting the gnome 3 wallpaper everywhere
19:24:05 <mizmo> is that they are trying to build a recognizable visual identity for GNOME
19:24:21 <mizmo> if you use the GNOME wallpaper with KDE by default, it sorts of breaks that bond
19:24:30 <t2hot> Its a technical holiday for us then
19:24:32 <nicubunu> if is not shown by default... nobody will really be interested to work on it
19:24:38 <schendje> mizmo: ah, like that
19:24:47 <mizmo> t2hot, not exactly, we still have lots of splashes to design, and we also hae to design a default for all the other spins
19:25:11 <mizmo> nicubunu, if folks don't want to work on it, i can take care of it for f15 - i understand it's a lot less sexy if it's not in the default downlad
19:25:31 <mizmo> but this is a community process so i want everyone to have the opportunity if they are interested, less sexy or not
19:26:04 <jimmac> unrelated to the issue of F15 at hand I think you guys are making it hard on yourself to theme the default fedora wallpaper per release name
19:26:12 <mizmo> schendje, yeh its one of those things where gnome users, like the wider general linux community, are fractured into 0.01% of the population - if gnome is recognizable across distros maybe free desktops will get more recognition
19:26:18 <jimmac> a good wallpaper matures by iteration
19:26:30 <jimmac> and you are limiting the time you have for it to a really limited time
19:26:43 <Emichan_> jimmac, but it's more fun to do new ones!
19:27:04 <jimmac> the way I would go about that is to define some basic rules of thumb for a default
19:27:20 <jimmac> lack of contrast, abstract enough not to have negative connotations .. that sort of thing
19:27:22 <nicubunu> there *are* such rules
19:27:34 <nicubunu> yes, we have them documented on the wiki
19:28:00 <jimmac> yea, but you go about figuring out a good symbolism for a release name
19:28:02 <mizmo> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F15_Artwork_Supplemental_Wallpapers_Submissions#Some_Guidelines
19:28:53 <mizmo> the thing is though, if we say only do a new wallpaper every 2nd or 3rd release, i don't think it frees up time for folks to work on other things
19:28:54 <jimmac> it's short lived
19:28:55 <schendje> hmm i'm not so much worried about the F15 wallpaper (i don't mind if it becomes the GNOME one), but more about the future of Fedora releases and the design team
19:29:04 <jimmac> you can't build on top of it for the next release
19:29:14 <mizmo> because a lot of people are interested in designing wallpapers, and making it so they can't as often doesn't translate into them working on other tasks or iterating the current one
19:29:53 <mizmo> that being said i would like it if we worked on more things than just the artwork, but we have been making good progress doing broader design work and UI work
19:29:54 <jimmac> yea, sadly
19:30:25 <jimmac> I guess a wallpaper is the designer equivalent of a twitter or irc client
19:30:27 <mizmo> i think our users really like getting a new wallpaper each release
19:31:32 <schendje> jimmac: heh i like that :)
19:31:40 <mizmo> it might be different if say odd fedora releases were more devel oriented and even were more user focusedor something, then every other release would work
19:31:51 <mizmo> a new one in the devel, then polish it more for the next even release
19:32:22 <mizmo> what do folks think? would you want to consider doing every other release wallpaper or do every release?
19:32:59 <Emichan_> I say we keep doing it every release - I personally like having a fresh looking desktop on a new installation.
19:33:19 <t2hot> +1
19:33:48 <mizmo> if the gnome 3 folks decide they want to use the upstream wallpaper for F15, are we still interested in doing a wallpaper for the rest of the Fedora spins?
19:33:59 <nicubunu> me not
19:34:35 <Emichan_> I'd still be interested in doing a wallpaper.
19:34:46 <mizmo> Emichan_++ me too :)
19:34:59 <t2hot> I've always thought wallpapers cut across spins
19:35:01 <Infurnoz> Yeah I would be
19:35:24 <Emichan_> I'd rather we use our own wallpaper as default, but I don't have super-strong feelings about it...
19:35:54 <mizmo> hm
19:35:59 <mizmo> i dont know if its possible
19:36:13 <mizmo> but what if our wallpaper was default if you opt out of gnome 3 and load up gnome 2 on the default download?
19:36:15 <mizmo> would that make sense?
19:36:52 <Emichan_> that seems like a good compromise
19:36:58 <mizmo> also note, it's not 100% guaranteed that gnome 3 will make f15 as default... it's going to be up to fesco a few weeks before release, they may decide it's not ready. (while it's less likely to happen in f15 as it did in f14, there is still a possibility)
19:37:01 <t2hot> Would have been nice if upstream floated this idea before arriving at the design ... could get a variation of this concept that will satisfy all parties
19:37:17 <nicubunu> no, it will break consistency with things like GDM background
19:37:20 <mizmo> t2hot, i dont know if they thought about it until now
19:37:43 <mizmo> t2hot, and to be fair, we just released F14 so it's not super last minute
19:37:54 <mizmo> we haven't even hit alpha for f15 yet
19:38:00 <schendje_> at first I thought 'they could've brought that up earlier' but, really, we have hardly started work on the wallpaper yet
19:38:07 <mizmo> exactly
19:38:22 <mizmo> that was my first reaction, then i looked at the calendar and was like, huh maybe not
19:38:26 <Emichan_> realistically, wallpapers are highly visible, but also like the easiest thing for users to change on their desktop, so I don't think we should agonize over it too much.
19:38:31 <schendje_> bye schendje
19:38:31 <mizmo> and im very deeply appreciative that they came to us
19:38:43 <mizmo> schendje_ has an evil twin!
19:38:47 <schendje_> >=)
19:39:25 <mizmo> i would like to look at this as an exceptional thing, something maybe to give a little more visibility to one of our upstreams
19:39:25 <schendje_> so what's this gnome 2 stuff? is that *another* option, besides gnome 3 and kde?
19:39:35 <schendje_> or is it if you shut down gnome-shell?
19:39:43 <schendje_> or the fallback?
19:39:47 <mizmo> schendje_, gnome 2 is what we have by default now in f14
19:39:53 <mizmo> i think it'll be the fallback if your video card can't do gnome 3
19:40:00 <schendje_> mizmo: yeah i know that :)
19:40:01 <nicubunu> schendje_: thanks $DEITY, we who do not like gnome shell will still be able to use the panel
19:40:01 <t2hot> Ok .. could the strip concept be adjusted/modified .... at least get the fedora-design team touch?
19:40:03 <mizmo> and i think you can also set it as a fall back if you're not ready for gnome 3 yet
19:40:21 <schendje_> i see
19:40:30 <mizmo> t2hot, i'm not sure, i think that should be up to jimmac
19:40:46 <schendje_> if the new wallpaper belongs to gnome 3, i don't think it makes sense to use it with gnome 2 *also*, right?
19:40:55 <schendje_> so we could use our "own" image there
19:41:18 <mizmo> schendje_, yeh i think that would be reasonable to propose
19:41:27 <Emichan_> i think the idea of using it as default in g2 makes sense too, but is it possible?
19:41:29 <schendje_> i don't know what the gnome design team was planning for that?
19:41:51 <mizmo> i think the gnome 3 wallpaper is meant to be used wtih gnome 3, and doesn't necessarily have any gnome 2 association
19:41:59 <mizmo> so i think if we made our wallpaper default with gnome 2, it would be okay
19:42:09 <mizmo> technically i dont know if it's possible to configure like that bu ti can certainly ask
19:42:25 <jimmac> t2hot: I don't see a problem of derivates from the wallpaper
19:42:38 <jimmac> t2hot: I have the xcf handy for those who wish to play with it
19:42:42 <mizmo> jimmac, if a derivative was used by default would it be okay?
19:43:16 <jimmac> I've been thinking of what would be the fedora touch on that
19:43:21 <jimmac> but didn't get anywhere
19:43:33 <mizmo> usually the fedora touch is blue hehe but it's already blue
19:43:42 <jimmac> I see the issue form both sides
19:43:48 <schendje_> we don't want to half-ass it and screw it up :)
19:43:49 <t2hot> was thinking in the line of texture and not colour
19:43:51 <jimmac> and agree with both parties :)
19:43:53 <mizmo> we tend to have a lot of space themes too
19:44:03 <mizmo> i'm in the same boat jimmac
19:44:18 <Emichan_> we can merge it with our own design and create a horrible mutant hybrid - or an AWESOME mutant hybrid - but we won't know until we try hehe
19:44:28 <mizmo> i think it is good to help out an upstream, kind of visibly showing what we already know about fedora being a strong supporter of its upstreams
19:44:36 <mizmo> steampunk stripes hehe
19:44:46 <mizmo> striped steampunk robot love o_O
19:44:47 <schendje_> if fedora uses it, won't it be seen as a fedora wallpaper?
19:44:49 <Emichan_> it could work
19:44:53 <t2hot> could still have the stripes ... maybe not same frequency, with wood grains underneath ... like a Gnome wood house thing .... just thinking
19:45:35 <mizmo> maybe if there was some way to define parameters within which each distro could customize it but at the same time it would have a recognizable look
19:45:37 <Emichan_> smurf wood paneling?
19:45:41 <mizmo> bwahhaa
19:45:47 <mizmo> fa la lalalala
19:45:59 <jimmac> t2hot: http://gitorious.org/gnome-design/gnome-design/blobs/master/wallpaper/stripes.xcf.bz2 is the file
19:46:02 <tatica> hmmm
19:46:21 <mizmo> #link http://gitorious.org/gnome-design/gnome-design/blobs/master/wallpaper/stripes.xcf.bz2
19:46:26 <t2hot> jimmac, cool
19:46:38 <jimmac> actually, there seems to be a cap on the direct http download
19:46:46 <jimmac> so you might need to clone the whole repo :/
19:46:54 <jimmac> gitorious fail
19:47:04 <schendje_> jimmac: can i put it up on my fpo space?
19:47:09 <mizmo> i can try to get the xcf uploaded to the design team shared drive on fpo
19:47:11 <jimmac> schendje_: sure
19:47:14 <schendje_> or, that
19:47:32 <tatica> I don't like the idea, sry
19:48:02 <tatica> if I'm getting this right (which I hope don't) you''re saying to not use a wallpaper made by the fedora design team
19:48:18 <mizmo> tatica, only for the desktop spin (which is unfortunately also the default download)
19:48:24 <schendje_> #link http://schendje.fedorapeople.org/gnome3wall/stripes.xcf.bz2 (1.8M)
19:48:29 <mizmo> and only for gnome 3, we might be able to set our wallpaper in gnome 2
19:48:39 <tatica> is even worst, is the first face of fedora that our users will see
19:48:50 <Emichan_> tatica - also only for f15 as a special thing heralding the release of g3
19:49:15 <tatica> we can do something special for g3, and g3 can do something special we can have in our repo
19:49:27 <mizmo> it's a special edition thing to help them out since it's their very first OS release
19:49:29 <tatica> but the face of fedora must be a fedora based thing
19:49:38 <tatica> is not, why we encourage people to join the design team?
19:49:40 <mizmo> all the artwork leading up to it will still be fedora though
19:49:59 <mizmo> we could use our wallpaper in the screenshots on the website etc as well
19:50:07 <schendje_> luckily it's a good wallpaper and it fits relatively well with the rest of Fedora artwork
19:50:12 <schendje_> mizmo: is that a good plan though?
19:50:19 <schendje_> to put it everywhere, except on the actual desktop
19:50:22 * jsmith is still in the air about it
19:50:27 <schendje_> (well, the prime desktop anyway)
19:50:55 <mizmo> #link http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Misc/GNOME/stripes.xcf.bz2  (might be easier if you have the design team share mounted to your computer)
19:51:12 <mizmo> schendje_, our hands are tied on that - we can't use it for non gnome spins
19:51:21 <mizmo> it defeats the purpose unfortunately :(
19:51:25 <schendje_> oh yeah i see that
19:51:35 <schendje_> but i mean - those are screenshots from the gnome version, right?
19:51:44 <mizmo> i mean ive done similar things for example for the red hat summit, i create red hat summit specific wallpapers for special edition fedora spins
19:51:50 <schendje_> and they won't have the same wallpaper as the actual desktop?
19:51:55 <mizmo> it's still promoting fedora, but it links it to the event
19:52:09 <schendje_> what about dvd and cd covers for instance, which will those use?
19:52:31 <mizmo> schendje_, it's just an option we can explore, we don't need to do it, or we could use all different wallpapers in the screenshot selected from our supplemental pack as well. like Emichan_ said, the wallpapers are frequently changed by users
19:52:42 <mizmo> i think the dvd/cd covers definitely should use the artwork we produce
19:53:07 <tatica> I think fedora should use the artwork that the team produce
19:53:09 <mizmo> i think the goal here coming from the gnome 3 team is visual recognizability of the desktop itself, so the dvd/cd cover shouldn't be an issue
19:53:14 <tatica> and we can contribute to other projects
19:53:33 <tatica> and we do it, but have a based wallpaper on a development... I don't think so
19:53:41 <tatica> so we should do a wallpaper for each app we support
19:53:46 <mizmo> tatica, this is what they asked of us though
19:53:47 <nicubunu> i maintain my position of being *strongly* against
19:53:55 <mizmo> tatica, what they are looking for is desktop recognizability
19:53:59 <tatica> the wallpaper itself is not bad
19:54:06 <mizmo> everyone knows windows because of the wallpaper, eg the rolling green hills and blue sky in XP
19:54:16 <mizmo> and everyone knows Mac because of the space auroras / the purplely and blue
19:54:20 <tatica> the desktop itself is recognizable
19:54:23 <mizmo> but nobody knows GNOME because each distro does their own thing
19:54:31 <tatica> no, everyone know mac for the color pattern and the lower menu bar
19:54:32 <mizmo> if im sitting at a coffee shop behind a GNOME user i might not have any idea
19:54:45 <nicubunu> that's good, gnome is not the end of the world, is just a DE
19:54:46 <mizmo> this is some of the thinking behind the request, anyway
19:54:54 <Emichan_> I'm finding the idea of doing a slightly altered (but recognizable) version of the g3 wp intriguing
19:54:55 <schendje_> but we also can't make every gnome distro look the same
19:55:10 <tatica> what I think is that this could be a mail list topic
19:55:20 <tatica> like I said
19:55:35 <tatica> the wallpaper is not bad (as a base, cause we havent yet finish the proposal period)
19:55:36 <t2hot> This is hard
19:55:54 <tatica> and to contribute all (g3 team and fedora art team) would be awesome
19:56:15 <tatica> but what I don't support is to use a 3rd party wallpaper without ask for help or work with the team that has been contributing
19:56:18 <mizmo> tatica, if we design something though it doesn't help, because they want something that is GNOME distinctive. when we design something it is for ALL spins, so GNOME can't be distinctive in this case
19:56:33 <mizmo> tatica, but jimmac is right here, and he's been to a bunch of our meetings now and has been talking with us about it, he designed it
19:56:37 <mizmo> tatica, it's a gimp file
19:56:48 <mizmo> tatica, it's not like for example, some person we don't know was hired to do something using photoshop or something like that
19:57:07 * t2hot seconding tactica
19:57:20 <mizmo> he also said it would be okay if we work with his source file to put some fedora touch on it
19:57:26 <t2hot> that prior information is important
19:57:30 <tatica> so, jimmac should know that he can send the artwork for the team (as he part of the team) to improove it
19:57:36 <tatica> like we do in all the releases
19:57:37 <tatica> right?
19:57:45 <mizmo> so i mean, it's not a 3rd party forcing something on else without asking for help or to work with us, they do want to work with us and have asked us for help
19:58:02 <mizmo> the problem they are looking to solve is for GNOME 3's grand opening release to have a distinctive wallpaper
19:58:08 <mizmo> different from the other spins
19:58:27 <tatica> then we can take the jimmac idea and propose a wallpaper for their release
19:58:36 <mizmo> tatica, so we'll design two wallpapers?
19:58:43 <tatica> no, design one together
19:58:46 <mizmo> one for gnome using jimmac's proposal, and one for the other spins?
19:58:57 <Emichan_> mizmo - two wallpapers++
19:58:59 <mizmo> tatica, the problem is that gnome needs a distinctive wallpaper
19:59:11 <tatica> well, we can use the same base and do 2 mockups
19:59:19 <nicubunu> they don't really need it, just want it
19:59:24 <tatica> but we have use since 6 (when I start at the team) the same wallpaper
19:59:32 <tatica> what I'm against is to lose our identity
19:59:36 <mizmo> well, to achieve their goal of a distinctive look it is needed i think nicubunu
19:59:39 <tatica> how our users will recognice fedora then?
19:59:42 <mizmo> tatica, exactly, im very much against that too
19:59:50 <tatica> they will recognice gnome... not fedora
19:59:52 <jimmac> i don't think the problem lies in that the wallpaper is or is not a community developed artwork
19:59:53 <jimmac> it is
20:00:06 <jimmac> i'm not teh sole author of it
20:00:07 <mizmo> tatica, which is why jimmac has offered to let us work with the source file and see if we can make it more fedora. it is already a fedora blue color
20:00:14 <jimmac> hylke has worked on it
20:00:15 <tatica> jimmac: the problem lies in that if we use a wallpaper for an app, all distros will have the same wallpaper
20:00:27 <tatica> and for years, the fedora artwork has been outstanding and awesome
20:00:33 <tatica> being a huge diference from other distros
20:00:41 <mizmo> jimmac, community isn't the issue from that pov, it's fedora community
20:00:43 <jimmac> the issue is that fedora project sees fedora as the center of the universe and it would be hard to argue here that it isn't
20:00:56 <tatica> so if we are going to use the same wallpaper that ubuntu-gnome, debian-gnome, whatever-gnome we won't be different at all
20:01:00 <nicubunu> because it is the center of our universe
20:01:00 <tatica> o_O
20:01:01 <jimmac> similarly for the gnome community, gnome is the center of the universe
20:01:04 <mizmo> gnome can't be the center of the universe for fedora
20:01:16 <mizmo> it's too diverse
20:01:16 <tatica> jimmac: you should take this as an advice, not a theat
20:01:22 <tatica> we are ofering our team to help
20:01:33 <tatica> what we don't want is to lose the work we have done for years
20:02:04 <jimmac> you can be certain in no way this is being considered as a threat
20:02:05 <tatica> and if we don't think in colaboration, there is no community at all
20:02:22 <tatica> fedora takes months to decide a wallpaper using what new and old users suggest
20:02:24 <jimmac> and I am a person who has been part of overlapping communities for ages
20:02:45 <tatica> jimmac: me too, but you should know that this is not because we don't want to help or be part of gnome
20:02:48 <t2hot> We're moving in circles here
20:02:56 <tatica> is just that we have been working for years hard to be outstanding
20:02:58 <tatica> yes
20:03:14 <jimmac> branding has always worked against inter-community cooperation. icons have been a prime example
20:03:15 <mizmo> well we have a few proposals on the table
20:03:15 <Emichan_> maybe we should move this to the mailing list? it's already been an hour... :/
20:03:20 <tatica> as I say, I will decline the idea of use the same wallpaper that the others distros will use
20:03:35 <tatica> but I'm foward to help any community (gnome or any other) to make a great artwork
20:03:36 <jimmac> and I've put a lot of effort in trying to leverage as many possible contributions there
20:03:40 <mizmo> well its the only thing left on our agenda Emichan, besides sketching session although i wasn't sure when we went into this if it made sense any more
20:03:54 <schendje_> jimmac: are you also going to try to get it in other distros?
20:04:04 <schendje_> jimmac: or just fedora because it's the first big release?
20:04:06 <t2hot> Sorry ... I'm not getting this right.  Mizmo ... is that wallpaper generic for all distros?
20:04:33 <mizmo> t2hot, i dont now
20:04:35 <mizmo> know
20:04:39 <t2hot> I mean ...fedora, Ubuntu, Arch, Debian ....  that doesn't add up
20:04:45 <Emichan_> well, even if we're using the g3 wp, we've got to make one of our own for -at least- the non-gnome DEs
20:04:52 <mizmo> t2hot, it won't be ubuntu because ubuntu refuses to use G3
20:05:04 <tatica> we can do something based on the gnome wallpaper and they can use our wallpaper as an extra
20:05:08 <tatica> that could be a posibility
20:05:26 <tatica> or, we can gather all the design teams of other distros and work in a "base proposal" that each one can improove
20:05:32 <mizmo> i worry if we do something based on the gnome wallpaper that it it'll hurt the distinctiveness they are going for
20:05:39 <tatica> but to use a unique wallpaper, I'm not on that idea
20:05:45 <t2hot> tactica ,,, you mean as the solution and not an extra
20:06:22 <Emichan_> mizmo, I think recognizability doesn't necessarily equate with uniqueness
20:06:36 <tatica> exactly
20:06:47 <tatica> for example, we all agree to use waves, or stripes
20:06:53 <t2hot> !
20:06:53 <mizmo> so if we do something, like steampunk stripes
20:06:57 <mizmo> for the other ones
20:07:05 <mizmo> and then G3 uses the plain stripes
20:07:05 <tatica> or anything you can up; but each distro adds some diference
20:07:08 <mizmo> would that work?
20:07:21 <mizmo> we want coherency across the various spins of fedora, so we use stripes to do that?
20:07:36 * jimmac nods
20:07:54 <Emichan_> but will that make the other spins look too gnome-y?
20:08:04 <mizmo> i guess it depends on the treatment
20:08:16 <mizmo> it could be kind of a sly nod to stripes without being overwhelmingly stripes
20:08:18 <tatica> for example, let me take our design of F14
20:08:26 <tatica> it has stripes and a bokeh
20:08:33 <mizmo> like, for example (and i dont think we'd ever too this, it's too childish) but if the wallpaper was of a panda, he would wear striped overalls
20:08:40 <tatica> if we take out the stripes is a complete different wallpaper with the same theme... right?
20:09:04 * jimmac recalls the awesome barcode wallpaper theme at design.ru
20:09:12 <jimmac> that was genius
20:09:25 <t2hot> links jimmac
20:09:55 * jimmac can't find it
20:10:20 <Emichan_> I think "blue vertical stripes" is a pretty strong visual theme, and if it's going to be strongly associated with gnome, then it may be inappropriate to use for other spins..
20:10:50 <t2hot> +1 Emichan
20:10:51 <tatica> I think we can do a "convertible wallpaper", we are enough creatives to provide a solution to this with artwork
20:10:57 <schendje_> but in this case, stripes = gnome, not stipes = fedora so if you use it on a kde-based fedora it doesn't make sense
20:11:14 <schendje_> (sorry, i thought i sent that already, but i agree with Emichan_ )
20:11:47 <tatica> Emichan_: but we can do a based concept like the one that F14 has
20:12:00 <tatica> stripes + $something (in the actual case, a bokeh)
20:12:16 <t2hot> that's what I said
20:12:53 <tatica> so we are starting to get to a solution? jimmac what do you think?
20:12:54 <mizmo> Emichan_, schendje_ i think it'd be stripes more as a nod than a central element
20:13:02 <mizmo> i think our central element would be lovelock, and the ideas we had before
20:13:12 <mizmo> and we could kind of slyly integrate stripes into the design somewhere as a nod
20:13:14 <Emichan_> well, what I understand mizmo saying is that fedora-gnome3 will have stock gnome3 wallpaper, then the rest of the fedora spins will have a slightly stripe-y wallpaper
20:13:16 <tatica> or we can perhaps work on a proposal too and you can take ideas also
20:13:44 <Emichan_> I think it would be more appropriate to have a lovelock base "fedora" wallpaper, and then alter the g3 wallpaper to make it closer to the fedora wallpaper
20:14:35 <Emichan_> so that it's clear that it's still fedora but has a strong visual association with gnome
20:14:39 <mizmo> i think either could work, depending heavily on the treatment
20:15:10 <jimmac> http://static.opensuse.org/hosts/www.o.o/images/screenshots/zoom/2.jpg?rand=483846239 the background here is based on elements in KDE 4.1
20:15:30 <jimmac> that's openSUSE 11.3
20:15:35 <jimmac> running gnome
20:16:38 <mizmo> jimmac, a nod to this one? http://www.sfondissimo.com/wp-content/gallery/sfondi-astratti/artistic-other-58506.jpg
20:16:44 <jimmac> I think putting distribution branding against a DE branding in a discussion won't result in any sort of agreement.
20:17:10 <tatica> I think that's not the message
20:17:27 <nicubunu> that's not a kde wallpaper but a very neutral one... i say this as a gnome user
20:17:31 <tatica> the message would be "a DE branding that doesn't want to take the help offered by a distribution" is bad
20:17:38 <tatica> we must work together
20:17:39 <jimmac> but I do think that trying to pick elements form GNOME + global theme for F15 as well as doing the same for KDE and all the others might produce reasonable results.
20:17:43 <tatica> we are community
20:18:02 <t2hot> Can someone throw me some rope on the word "lovelock"?
20:18:04 <tatica> I'm sure that we can create something great mixing our skills and ideas
20:18:07 <mizmo> if doing one wallpaper per release is too much work though doing one wallpaper per desktop enivironment for a release is way too much
20:18:23 <mizmo> t2hot, it's a last name of a person i think
20:18:29 <Emichan_> t2hot - it's a town in nevada like laughlin :)
20:18:33 <mizmo> oh right
20:18:38 <tatica> t2hot: the one that make the gaia theory
20:18:40 <mizmo> laughlin was the last name last release
20:18:48 <nicubunu> the problem is not too much work, but dissoluting the identity
20:18:51 <tatica> t2hot: es.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Lovelock
20:18:57 <mizmo> http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs22/i/2007/334/c/2/Steampunk_by_Sumerky.jpg some kind of steampunky texture in this background with stripes?
20:19:26 <mizmo> love lock hehe http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/122/5/5/OneWing_Steampunk_Keyblade_by_Drayok.jpg
20:19:30 <mizmo> shiny brass stripes?
20:19:41 <Venemo> hi guys
20:20:02 <Emichan_> hi Venemo
20:20:03 <mizmo> hi Venemo, welcome
20:20:05 <schendje_> hi Venemo
20:20:12 <Venemo> can I use Fedora's Solar wallpaper in an open source application that I'm creating?
20:20:37 <t2hot> mizmo ... I feel that idea ... the texture bit
20:20:38 <Venemo> according to http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Legal:Trademark_guidelines#Application_themes.2C_skins.2C_and_personas I can, but I came here to be sure
20:20:55 <mizmo> maybe steampunk wing with the feathers extending out into a stripe pattern http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs45/i/2009/061/0/c/Steampunk_Wings_by_rocknro8907.jpg
20:20:58 <jimmac> see? all we need is for people to use wallpapers randomly so the branding aspect becomes moot :)
20:21:01 <mizmo> Venemo, that shouldn't be a problem
20:21:25 <Venemo> mizmo: ok, thanks
20:21:53 <mizmo> Venemo, all the sources etc should be available should you need them
20:22:09 <Venemo> no big deal
20:22:21 <mizmo> Venemo, http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Resources/Fedora%20Release%20Themes/F10/ we have a bunch of files here that might be helpful
20:22:29 <Venemo> thanks mizmo :)
20:23:16 <Venemo> I'm working on a jigsaw puzzle game for which I wanted some built-in pictures, and I the Solar wallpaper quite much
20:23:58 <nicubunu> Venemo: everything we do is cc-by-sa, so feel free to use
20:24:33 <Venemo> cc-by-sa?
20:24:59 <t2hot> Hmm, Lovelock inspired Final Fantasy 3D animation movie ...
20:25:00 <nicubunu> we accept only cc-by and cc-by-sa
20:25:13 <Emichan_> Venemo - Creative Commons Attribution Share-Alike - http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.0/
20:25:21 <Venemo> thanks :)
20:25:27 <tatica> t2hot: no
20:25:37 <tatica> t2hot: final fantasy inspired on lovelock theory
20:25:47 <tatica> lovelock theory is way older than final fantasy
20:25:49 <tatica> :)
20:25:51 <Venemo> thx for the link Emichan_
20:25:58 <tatica> even Asimov talk about gaia in his 6th Foundation book
20:26:20 <t2hot> U interprete me wrongly tatica ... we're saying the same thing
20:26:34 <tatica> ahh oki oki
20:26:34 <tatica> xD
20:27:10 <t2hot> Whats the resolution ... work is waiting here
20:27:24 <mizmo> im looking up some steampunk inspirations right now
20:27:52 <schendje_> am i the only one who thinks that if we use the gnome 3 wallpaper, we shouldn't change it at all? :$
20:28:03 <nicubunu> resolution on the strategy... what wallpaper will be used where
20:28:23 <mizmo> schendje_, i dont really think we should necessarily change it either, but if we want some cross spin integration i think slyly sticking in a stripes motif somewhere in our wallpaper might be fun
20:28:33 <mizmo> you can go G3 => Fedora or Fedora => G3
20:28:40 <mizmo> i dont think either is the definitive clear answer
20:31:30 <mizmo> i dont really know what we should do, but at least the issue is on the table now
20:32:03 <Emichan_> so, are we still doing the sketching session?
20:32:19 <nicubunu> today?
20:32:31 <schendje_> mizmo: we should take it the list either way, could you do that?
20:32:45 <Emichan_> we were supposed to do it today, should we table it until this wp issue is resolved?
20:32:45 <mizmo> im not going to bring it up on the list outside of the meeting minutes
20:32:49 <mizmo> i simply don't have the bandwidth
20:33:00 <mizmo> well i've been trying to start the sketching session by sending links to inspiration & ideas
20:33:04 <mizmo> but i dont see anyone doing the same
20:33:10 <mizmo> it doesnt help we havent really done a skeching session before though
20:33:14 <Emichan_> we could just let people put together concepts and decide then.
20:33:14 <mizmo> :)
20:33:30 <mizmo> yeh now that we know the issues on the table, we can keep them in mind when coming up with concepts and see where it goes
20:35:10 <Emichan_> I didn't know we had started, but I'll see what I can find :)
20:35:29 <mizmo> this is what i got
20:35:36 <mizmo> #link http://sumerky.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-71032811 <= i like the bg texture
20:35:57 <mizmo> #link http://drayok.deviantart.com/art/OneWing-Steampunk-Key-140735134 very lovelock and steampunk (but too noun-y for a wallpaper of course)
20:36:16 <mizmo> #link http://rocknro8907.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-Wings-114717840 i thought maybe the wings could kind of evolve into an abstract stripe kind of thing
20:36:30 <mizmo> #link http://dolphy.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-Kitty-188687419 i think the BG is cool
20:37:02 <mizmo> how about this ill change topic
20:37:06 <mizmo> #topic sketch session
20:38:50 <Emichan_> for some weird reason, I really want to do a retro roller-skating tableau :P
20:38:59 <Emichan_> with disco stripes! :D
20:39:01 <schendje_> Emichan_: tell me more! :D
20:39:01 * rbergeron just wants to go roller skating, now that you've said the word
20:39:38 <Emichan_> I have this weird association of "love" and roller skating -LOL
20:39:48 <Emichan_> couples skate ftw!
20:39:48 <schendje_> hahaha
20:40:15 <t2hot> UIronically, I'm testing out G3 and loving it
20:40:19 <jimmac> hmm, ocean pipes. water is always a magnetic texture
20:40:23 * rbergeron really likes the gears concept, fwiw
20:40:27 <jimmac> pipes / stripes
20:40:39 <mizmo> oooh pipes
20:40:52 <t2hot> how about this:  https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Modified-stripes.jpg#filelinks
20:41:00 <Emichan_> ooo jimmac pipes would suit steampunk well :)
20:41:03 <mizmo> steampunk pipes on one side with water flowing out in a water stripe pattern? i love it
20:41:16 <mizmo> t2hot, how does wood relate to fedora?
20:42:03 <Emichan_> well, and locks do have a (distant) water-related meaning...
20:42:19 <Emichan_> t2hot - smurfwood! :)
20:42:36 <jimmac> or going the more abstract way, having some geometric pipes james white style with some water waves splashing at it
20:42:52 <t2hot> That's raw
20:43:10 <mizmo> lock / loch
20:43:35 <mizmo> http://blog.signalnoise.com/ ?
20:43:53 <Emichan_> mizmo - lol that's another one! homophones! :)
20:44:06 <jimmac> t2hot: that is definitely a wallpaper I'd use, but I don't see that pleasing the Lovelock crowd here
20:44:35 <jimmac> mizmo: yea
20:44:37 <t2hot> Jimmac, I can see that
20:44:58 <mizmo> t2hot, i dont know if we want folks thinking fedora is raw though
20:45:02 <mizmo> we're trying to expand our target audience
20:45:05 <jimmac> mizmo: http://www.flickr.com/photos/aoirostudio/4825606949/
20:45:12 <mizmo> visually it looks nice but i worry about the connotations
20:45:20 <jimmac> that kind of eye candy orgasm
20:45:24 <mizmo> hehe it makes me think of tron, but its pretty!
20:45:46 <jimmac> he's been involved in that I think
20:45:49 <t2hot> No mizmo, I meant that was an untreated version of what I had in mind ... a concept and not the end-product
20:46:09 <mizmo> t2hot, its the concept that im taking issue wtih :)
20:46:56 <jimmac> mizmo: scratch that, not commissioned to do it
20:47:06 <jimmac> just fan art -- http://blog.signalnoise.com/2009/07/27/tron-legacy-poster-by-james-white/
20:47:33 <mizmo> oh hehe nice though
20:47:48 <mizmo> you can tell he is a big fan :)
20:48:34 <mizmo> #idea  or going the more abstract way, having some geometric pipes james white style with some water waves splashing at it
20:48:40 <mizmo> #idea steampunk pipes on one side with water flowing out in a water stripe pattern?
20:48:53 <mizmo> #idea https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Modified-stripes.jpg#filelinks
20:49:01 <mizmo> #idea I have this weird association of "love" and roller skating -LOL
20:49:16 <mizmo> #idea  #link http://rocknro8907.deviantart.com/art/Steampunk-Wings-114717840 i thought maybe the wings could kind of evolve into an abstract stripe kind of thing
20:49:19 <t2hot> mizmo: I was thinking of a textured overlay .... it doesn't have to be wood.  A good example is the steampunk backround you mentioned but with the stripe statement.  That is the concept ... not the wood
20:49:29 <mizmo> ah okay
20:49:38 <mizmo> #idea mizmo: I was thinking of a textured overlay .... it doesn't have to be wood.  A good example is the steampunk backround you mentioned but with the stripe statement.  That is the concept ... not the wood
20:50:59 <Emichan_> OMG roller disco!! ah! http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jezebel/2009/05/0_2523d_92ff719f_XL.jpg
20:51:54 <mizmo> hehe
20:52:03 <mizmo> LOLer skates
20:53:35 <Emichan_> lollerskates yay! http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc60/klokwerk7/Funny%20Pictures/lollerskates.gif
20:53:59 <schendje_> Emichan_: i think we just found our wallpaper!
20:54:46 <Emichan_> schendje_: *you're welcome*
20:55:48 <Emichan_> another idea, although not directly stripe-related is the whole gaia-thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
20:56:58 <mizmo> #idea another idea, although not directly stripe-related is the whole gaia-thing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
20:57:22 <schendje_> yeah i really like that
20:57:38 <schendje_> it also makes me think of the open source community as a whole
20:57:47 <schendje_> but am not sure how to translate it into something visual
20:58:22 <mizmo> FF7 lifestream!
20:58:39 <Emichan_> omg - thank you wikipedia - I just came across this: Daisyworld! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisyworld
20:59:00 <mizmo> http://pandamomium.blogspot.com/2006/07/lifestream_10.html <= i support that website's title
20:59:24 <t2hot> Hmm, lifeforms is the game osmos (hemisphere) ... nice art
20:59:46 <mizmo> http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lifestream.png
21:04:23 <t2hot> Okay.  Can I move for adjournment? Its 2hrs already.
21:04:50 <mizmo> im going to keep sketching but you can head out of course if you like
21:05:22 <Emichan_> I can stick around for a bit longer
21:05:59 <nicubunu> if there is no conclusion on default/g3/f15 i will go away too, sketching is pointless from my
21:06:04 <nicubunu> POV
21:06:36 <Emichan_> nicubunu, whatever is decided, we'll still need a non-gnome wallpaper...
21:07:48 <t2hot> Or ... let it flow. I'm around .... just off the keyboard a bit
21:08:00 <schendje_> seeya t2hot :)
21:21:46 <t2hot> back
21:30:35 <mizmo> these are terrible bu
21:30:36 <mizmo> http://fedorapeople.org/groups/designteam/Resources/Fedora%20Release%20Themes/F15/Concept%20Sketches/mo-sketch-1.png
21:30:39 <mizmo> s/bu/but
21:31:19 <mizmo> kinda like this http://photos.igougo.com/images/p79998-Las_Vegas-Fountains_of_Bellagio.jpg
21:31:29 <mizmo> which ties in nicely to the lovelock-the-gamblin'-city-in-nevada idea lol
21:34:47 <schendje_> mizmo: nice! i was thinking something similar at first
21:34:53 <mizmo> #link http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2010/06/spectacular-fountains-from-around-the-world/
21:35:05 <schendje_> now i'm trying to create waves that "embrace" eachother in a sort of yin/yang fashion
21:35:13 <mizmo> i like the electric fountain in denver
21:35:16 <mizmo> ooh that sounds nice schendje_
21:35:26 <schendje_> mizmo: http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/hospitalera/hospitalera0704/hospitalera070400020/866915.jpg kind of thing
21:35:31 <schendje_> it's hard though :)
21:35:32 <mizmo> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3195/2782786333_45c8f15d89_b.jpg
21:35:38 <schendje_> http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/184111/184111,1233895584,3/stock-photo-yin-yang-rendered-fractal-24491848.jpg
21:35:39 <mizmo> ahh interesting
21:35:46 <schendje_> http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/62870/62870,1148625054,1/stock-photo-blue-yin-yang-tai-chi-abstract-pattern-1361840.jpg
21:36:02 <schendje_> mizmo: ohhhh purdy! :)
21:36:41 <mizmo> http://www.denverelectricfountain.org/images/prismatic_home.jpg
21:36:44 <mizmo> i like how it blends colors
21:37:03 <schendje_> reminds me of that wallpaper, which also kind of looks like the gnome 3 one
21:37:14 <mizmo> http://www.denverelectricfountain.org/fountain_photographs.php?c=night
21:37:42 <mizmo> http://www.denverelectricfountain.org/fountain_photo.php?p=31 !!!
21:37:51 <schendje_> ah, this one: http://psp.88000.org/12__Rainbow_Spectrum.htm
21:37:54 <mizmo> i like the idea because
21:38:00 <schendje_> can't remember what it was used for though...
21:38:02 <schendje_> (the wall)
21:38:09 <mizmo> #1 the fountains like these are really prominent in las vegas, a nevada gamblin' town like lovelock
21:38:19 <schendje_> oh, wait i think it's the NBC thing? or MSNBC?
21:38:20 <mizmo> #2 the patterns are very similar to the lifestream / gaia force visuals in FF
21:38:32 <schendje_> yep
21:38:39 <mizmo> hmm i haven't seen that before
21:38:49 <mizmo> but nbc does do similar patterns for the rainbow peacock tail
21:38:52 <mizmo> since their logo is a peacock
21:44:00 <schendje_> argh, i've got to go :(
21:44:15 <schendje_> have fun sketching you guys :)
21:44:18 <schendje_> bb
21:52:17 <Emichan_> sorry peeps - i gotta go too! it's been real! :)
21:52:32 <mizmo> later
21:52:34 <mizmo> #endmeeting