19:00:46 #startmeeting 19:00:46 Meeting started Tue Aug 3 19:00:46 2010 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:00:46 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:00:55 * ianweller will be here in a sec 19:01:07 #topic rollcall 19:01:12 here 19:01:14 * mizmo Máirín Duffy 19:01:14 here 19:01:15 * Schendje reporting 19:01:16 maria leandro :D 19:01:25 * maxamillion Adam Miller 19:01:37 (proper format for rollcall?) 19:01:40 * fabsh Fabian Scherschel 19:01:41 yay welcome to your first design team meeting maxamillion :) 19:01:48 there's no format, whatever works :) 19:01:50 * Emichan here! 19:01:51 mizmo: many thanks! 19:01:56 Alexander Smirnov 19:01:59 mizmo: very happy to be here 19:02:02 luya tshimbalanga there and greeting all 19:02:03 hey Alexander! 19:02:20 all right cool, let me hit up the first topic real quick 19:02:25 #topic schedule reminders 19:02:27 hey Máirín 19:02:30 we're got breathing room right now 19:02:37 in terms of tasks and when they are due 19:02:48 but things are going to get crazy once the F14 splashes are due I think 19:03:00 #info feedback period on alpha wallpaper ends 17 Aug. 19:03:09 #info supplemental wallpaper submission period ends 19 Aug. 19:03:16 noted 19:03:23 * nicubunu present too 19:03:24 so in terms of F14 those are dates we should be thinking of 19:03:30 that reminds me to submit my extra wallpapers 19:03:37 * kylebaker present 19:03:38 finalzone, please do! :) 19:04:02 i received two submissions this past week and they are pretty cool, one of my friends is a beekeeper and took a picture of his bees, another person from the fedora forums submitted a moon photo 19:04:03 okies =) 19:04:22 cool 19:04:23 okay any issues/concerns/questions regarding the schedule from anybody? 19:04:27 are they on the wiki? 19:04:35 fabsh, yep i uploaded them this morning :) 19:04:43 the last two in the gallery last i checked 19:04:53 aiight let's move on to the next topic 19:05:02 #topic fedora brand fonts project 19:05:02 mizmo: gotta see.... :) 19:05:44 #info ianweller posted a great summary of his conversation with pam chestek regarding our trademarks and fonts http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-July/003041.html 19:05:44 wow.... i love those mizmo. ace! 19:05:48 :) 19:06:15 so quick summary of ian's email (which also is a summary lol) 19:06:31 #info we shouldn't change the font of the fedora logo or the fedora remix logo (but we can change the remix logo colors) 19:06:37 * Schendje feels itchy on seeing the bees O_o 19:07:02 #info we shouldn't change the 'fudcon' logotype in the fudcon logo, but we *can* change the 'location' font to be comfortaa if we like 19:07:17 so 19:07:35 does it make sense, do you think, to change the location in the fudcon logo to comfortaa? 19:07:46 I think so 19:07:48 yes 19:07:48 would the two fonts look good next to one another? 19:07:58 yes 19:08:01 * maxamillion isn't familiar with comfortaa (apologies) 19:08:04 maxamillion, thats a good question. maybe ianweller could do a mockup 19:08:20 maxamillion, it's actually very similar to the font used for the fedora logo (bryant2) with a little more flourishes/characer 19:08:29 * tatica has test comfortaa... +1 19:08:31 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design/Fedora_Branding_Fonts 19:08:31 maxamillion: like this? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:Artwork_ArtTeamProjects_WikiDesign_ArtTeamN1.png 19:08:47 If the size relation of the location to the logo varies enough no one will notice they are different 19:08:54 ooo, I like it 19:09:15 looks good 19:09:20 I actually like Comfortaa better than the old font 19:09:20 i like how this one came out too http://identi.ca/group/fedoradesign (the group avatar) 19:09:25 maxamillion, same here lol 19:09:35 comfortaa package is currently under review 19:09:39 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=619518 19:09:41 okay so let's agree to update the fudcon logo with comfortaa for the location 19:09:53 #info we'll change the fudcon logo with comfortaa for the location 19:09:55 * finalzone nods 19:10:02 * Emichan agrees 19:10:05 the other font-related thing, cantarell vs droid sans 19:10:07 * ianweller nods 19:10:18 Emichan did an awesome job building an app to do the comparison 19:10:28 does anyone know yet how we can fix cantarell in inkscape? 19:10:35 Schendje, how is it broken? 19:10:41 the defaulting-to-bold thing 19:10:54 http://www.fightingcrane.com/emily/fedora/fontfight 19:11:00 if anyone hasn't seen it 19:11:05 the bug is with the font or with inkscape? 19:11:09 sorry...... my connection died :/ 19:11:12 #link http://www.fightingcrane.com/emily/fedora/fontfight Emily's font comparison app 19:11:29 fabsh_, it's all good, we are talking cantarell vs droid sans 19:11:38 * ianweller is finally back 19:11:46 that is cool 19:11:49 Schendje, i guess it depends where the bug lies. what we could do is decide to hold off a decision until we try to get the problem fixed 19:11:54 i prefer cantarell's spacing 19:12:02 I think Cantarell is easier on the eyes, in large amounts of text Droid Sans appears a bit cluttered 19:12:16 can anybody reproduce the cantarell bold bug? 19:12:22 although you can adjust for that with droid presumably 19:12:23 the spacing can be changed 19:12:29 #info cantarell has a bug in inkscape where it goes bold when it shouldn't 19:12:31 exactly 19:12:46 mizmo: i've had bugs like that in other (non-free) fonts 19:13:00 i think droid is generaölly easier to read 19:13:00 i thought more people had that bug in previous meetings? 19:13:12 yes, i have the bug too... complained on the list a few weeks ago and was adviced to use the text dialog (no workee) 19:13:16 droid would be easier to read if it was spaced the same 19:13:27 nicubunu: indeed, the text dialog also doesn't work 19:13:29 oh i see, it's a problem for me too, the bold button on the toolbar doesn't work 19:13:29 kylebaker: agreed 19:13:31 kylebaker: agreed 19:13:41 I don't have that bug, is it just for specific versions of inkscape? 19:13:43 nicubunu, making it bold via the text dialog works for me 19:13:50 nicubunu, but the bold button on the toolbar doesnt 19:14:03 mizmo: it's bold with me too, i can't get the regular version though 19:14:07 im using inkscape-0.47-6.el6.x86_64 19:14:12 I like the spacing of cantarell, too, but agree that droid is easier to read 19:14:14 for me in the text dialog it goes not bold until i hit apply 19:14:15 Schendje, weird! i get the regular version by default 19:14:37 Inkscape 0.47 r22583 here.. hmmm 19:14:53 * maxamillion tries to find a snarky comment about mizmo running EL6 and not Fedora but can't think of one 19:14:54 mizmo, what is your gut feeling? 19:14:57 :) 19:15:18 well i set the line-height to 1.5 em 19:15:29 so the line height for both cantarell and droid sans is the same in Emichan's webpage 19:15:37 I'm using inkscape 0.48 - the devel version 19:15:47 i still feel like cantarell is lighter, easier to read, and to me more elegant 19:15:55 i'll upgrade my inkscape, see how that goes... 19:16:01 and otherwise contact the inkscape developers 19:16:04 mizmo: what's this font fight for? what are we deciding between these to for? 19:16:07 s/to/two 19:16:09 -my- gut feeling would be to give cantarell a shot 19:16:20 maxamillion, for the fedora brand font recommendations 19:16:25 droid does have support for more scripts 19:16:26 ohhh ok 19:16:30 something to keep in mind 19:16:38 maxamillion, so we decided comfortaa is going to be our headline font; we need to decide our body font 19:16:40 Emichan: oh? ... that is something to keep in mind 19:16:48 mizmo: ahh, makes sense 19:17:15 i personally like cantarell more 19:17:19 droid has CJK support as well... so we wouldn't need a separate font for those scripts... 19:17:20 nicubunu, do you know if Dave has any plans to expand to Greek or Cyrillic? 19:17:28 Emichan: how many more though? and how much work would need doing to catch Cantarell up? 19:17:44 mizmo: i don't know his plans 19:17:50 because I really think Cantarell is a much easier font to read through 19:18:07 "Droid Sans Fallback is a font with CJK support." 19:18:21 what's CJK? 19:18:43 chinese japanese korean 19:18:43 chinese/japanese/korean 19:18:55 ah 19:19:15 so much about fonts I have to learn 19:19:28 If they are spaced the same in the style sheets Droid does not work as well 19:19:31 its a world in and of itself 19:19:45 cantarell has Basic Latin, Western European, Catalan, Baltic, Turkish, Central European, Dutch and Afrikaans 19:20:00 droid good support cyrillic. 19:20:01 according to http://abattis.org/cantarell/ 19:20:19 cantarell does have source availability which droid does not 19:20:25 one thing we could do if we like cantarell better is to pick specific fonts to fill in the gaps 19:20:45 +1 mizmo 19:21:12 mizmo: use Cantarell where applicable and Droid Sans for the gaps? 19:21:14 we could always use both: cantarell as default/droid for those scripts not supported by cantarell... 19:21:21 Emichan: +1 19:21:25 maxamillion: great minds! 19:21:32 :) 19:21:39 so i just verified droid sans doesn't support japanese it falls back to deja vu 19:22:03 oh 19:22:05 so we could do a fall back like this > Cantarell > Droid Sans > Deja Vu 19:22:10 Deja Vu Sans that is 19:22:12 well, these character sets a very different anyway 19:22:15 yeh 19:22:17 only worry i have is that deja vu looks nothing like cantarell or droid sans ;) 19:22:33 ianweller, deja vu Japanese goes fine with them though 19:22:37 hmm 19:22:43 most fonts designed for western characters use very generic characters for chinese and japanese anyway 19:22:51 should someone do a mockup? 19:23:06 have the same paragraph of text 19:23:08 ianweller: does the typeface matter that much with such drastically different character sets? 19:23:10 in all the lanaguages fedora supports 19:23:11 maybe we are better off picking a separate font for these locales 19:23:27 showing cantarell for the langs it supports and droid and deja vu sans picking up the gaps? 19:23:44 inkscaper, do you know of any good free cyrillic fonts that might go well with cantarell? 19:24:09 no 19:24:38 i used droid 19:24:54 and deja vu 19:25:10 inkscaper, do you think droid sans in cyrillic would be compatible with cantarell for latin? 19:25:49 #info development version of inkscape .48 does not have cantarell bug so it may well be an inkscape bug 19:26:00 can us use Emichan's app to compare droid and dejavu for cyrillic? 19:26:13 should try 19:26:18 #info current font proposal is to use cantarell where possible > fall back to droid > fall back to dejavu OR cantarell + specific hand-picked fonts per locale 19:26:42 nicubunu: sure - I can make the changes today 19:26:59 #action Emichan will add the ability to compare droid and dejavu for cyrillic in her font compare app 19:27:01 +1 to either of the proposals 19:27:03 okay cool 19:27:19 * ianweller checks to see if there were any other questions he had based on his summary from pchestek 19:27:47 is everybody cool with what was suggested in that email, btw? 19:28:00 i'm going to mock up the fudcon and foundations logos with the new font and post to the list. 19:28:20 * tatica is just doing that :S 19:28:29 ianweller, yep 19:28:32 or tatica is and i don't have to do work. 19:28:40 which is much better. :) 19:28:40 ianweller, a bunch of us agreed changing the location font to comfortaa in the fudcon logo is a good idea 19:28:49 ianweller, LOL 19:29:08 i dont understand all the points in the email but i cant factually argue with tm lawyers, i know that 19:29:08 not like that, but I'm doing a banner for latam-magazine right now and I was just going to ask that 19:29:19 I can export what I did 19:29:35 so does anybody have strong feelings against cantarell with fallbacks? 19:30:00 mizmo: I'm fine with that 19:30:06 NOPE 19:30:06 +q1 19:30:07 +1 * 19:30:11 sorry caps lock 19:30:14 keke 19:30:14 lol 19:30:20 not at all 19:30:41 okay, let's stick to our FLOSS roots and go cantarell. we just need to figure out which fallback fonts for those locales it doesn't support 19:30:41 sounds good to me 19:30:45 Emichan's app will help with that 19:31:07 #info We've decided on using Cantarell and will work to determine specific fallback fonts for uncovered languages 19:31:09 cool 19:31:17 any other font-related questions / issues / concerns? 19:31:25 mizmo: maybe ask on planet or on the fonts list for non-latin fonts suggestions? 19:31:30 mizmo: btw droid sans DOES support CJK, but you have to have droid sans fallback or droid sans japanese,etc installed 19:31:34 nicubunu, thats a great idea 19:31:51 Emichan, oh okay awesome! are those just as open or is ascender charging $$ for them? 19:31:58 mizmo: i think we should change all the fonts. i won't argue with the lawyers though ;) 19:32:02 mizmo: have to check 19:32:08 kk 19:32:16 so that would make CJK fallbacks easier 19:32:22 fabsh, i agree 100% :) 19:32:30 http://tatica.fedorapeople.org/Fedora_Artwork/Logos/fudcon-comfortaa.png 19:32:32 * mizmo designed the new gnome logotype because it was an MS font before!! 19:32:40 hmm... I need to fix those border... 19:32:44 woah 19:32:58 tatica, is the 'fudcon' part comfortaa? cuz we have to leave that modata 19:33:14 ahhhh 19:33:15 mizmo: cool. i like their new slogan :) 19:33:18 better 19:33:34 * tatica changing it 19:34:16 http://tatica.fedorapeople.org/Fedora_Artwork/Logos/fudcon-comfortaa.png <= done 19:34:16 kk 19:34:23 only country will be comfortaa? 19:34:25 oh! that works fine 19:34:27 yep 19:34:29 according to the versions I have installed DS fallback/japanese are apache v2 licensed 19:34:38 unfortunately :( the lawyers said we need to keep modata, tatica 19:34:43 Emichan, okay kick ass 19:34:49 * fabsh still thinks we should change the I in that font :) 19:34:52 mizmo, np, I guess they where going to say that 19:34:53 #info Droid Sans Fallback / Japanese have CJK support, apache v2 licensed 19:35:05 * Emichan agrees with fabsh 19:35:06 comfortaa package is submitted for review, it will be nice if there is someone taking it 19:35:08 fabsh, it definitely sticks out 19:35:18 finalzone: i would but i don't understand the font guidelines well enough :( 19:35:33 finalzone, matthew miller had volunteered to help package it. can you ask him to help with the package review? 19:35:40 i bet he'd be happy to do it 19:35:50 finalzone: is comfortaa not currently under review? 19:35:55 i want try create alpha banner using comfortaa and droid (cantarell) 19:35:58 mizmo, sure 19:36:20 inkscaper, that would be awesome!!!!!! i think it's due pretty soon 19:36:24 * mizmo not sure how it didn't end up on the schedule 19:36:36 #action inscaper to create alpha banner for f14 using comfortaa and droid 19:36:47 okay, lets move on to the next topic :) 19:36:52 #topic new Design wiki page 19:36:55 maxamillion: no one is currently assigned as reviewer =( 19:36:58 Emichan did a kickass job cleaning up our wikipage 19:37:05 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Design 19:37:06 thanks mo 19:37:08 finalzone: link me, I'll review it 19:37:15 and I think nicubunu and msourada made some edits as well 19:37:18 finally! 19:37:25 minor edits 19:37:33 nice work :) 19:37:38 #link http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork the artwork page is now happily deprecated :) 19:37:45 maxamillion: cool, I am doing it right now 19:37:56 i like the new banner too 19:38:01 should we have a list of people on the team or does that change too much? 19:38:04 still, i don't think is good for us to add a lot of stuff on the page, keep it readable 19:38:16 well 19:38:25 i definitely need to clean up the meeting notes section 19:38:30 i think i'll make a new wikipage for them 19:38:36 that should cut down on the page length a lot 19:38:54 kk 19:38:56 * fabsh doesnt think the page is too long 19:39:02 so does any body have questions/comments/concerns about the page? 19:39:06 the old artwork page also has some information on resources and guidelines that may need to be moved over 19:39:17 i'm not sure which of that stuff is still relevant 19:39:19 i think most of those are out-of-date 19:39:28 a lot of hte artwork requirements are totally different now 19:39:31 * ianweller has to run :( 19:39:43 maybe we should link to the new guidelines? 19:40:02 we don't actually have new ones :( i don't think 19:40:14 what we usually do every release is refer to the artwork from the release before to understand the specs 19:40:35 maybe we should work on that 19:40:36 it might be worth having a section that links to every release's artwork 19:40:36 eg 19:40:37 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F13_Artwork 19:40:40 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F12_Artwork 19:40:42 so on and so forth 19:40:42 ianweller: laters 19:40:46 later ianweller 19:41:20 okay so we have 20 minutes left 19:41:42 maybe we should talk about creating new guidelines in the next meeting? 19:41:46 * fabsh wants meetings in manaworld 19:41:53 Emichan, that sounds great 19:42:04 #action we'll discuss new artwork guidelines for fedora next meeting 19:42:07 i want to do open floor for at least ten minutes since we haven't had time for it in so long 19:42:14 #topic open floor 19:42:22 we could try the social half hour in mana world today 19:42:25 :) :) :) 19:42:38 if i manage to figure out how to find people :) 19:42:43 lol that'd be awesome 19:42:46 and i have no shirt in there... :/ 19:42:52 i never get very far in it, i get killed by wormy guys 19:42:57 * Emichan has never played 19:43:02 it's very cute 19:43:04 are shirts obligatory for meetings? darnit... 19:43:10 * Schendje neither :( 19:43:12 it's a 2d anime-ish mmorpg 19:43:15 and it's open souce 19:43:17 i just found out about it from mizmo 19:43:17 source 19:43:35 has anyone tried google wave for online meetings? 19:43:41 http://themanaworld.org/ 19:43:42 it breaks down 19:43:49 wave that is 19:44:02 i haven't tried it for live meetings. the gnome guys use it sometimes for long running conversations 19:44:03 not quite on the Firefly level yet, that... 19:44:07 * Emichan is a sad panda 19:44:33 i know gw has a vector drawing plugin and some other neat things 19:44:38 but i haven't used it yet 19:44:46 there's an open source gw thingy http://pygowave.net/ 19:45:03 and also https://echowaves.com/ 19:45:18 why sad panda Emichan 19:45:22 suse has one as well 19:45:44 fabsh, it's not open though :( 19:45:59 sad about gw breaking down - would be cool to try it... ;) 19:46:02 OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH 19:46:06 i forgot 19:46:07 wave looked so magical at first... then everybody tried it and went 'huh. well. ok.' (at least that's the feeling I had) 19:46:16 mizmo: it isn't? :( 19:46:18 http://django.parcodiyellowstone.it/pickpic/ 19:46:25 it's a little rough around the edges 19:46:40 but this is an app one of the students of the professors mchua met at oscon created 19:46:47 it's for collaborating on art 19:46:57 i was thinking it might be cool if we try it for F14 artworks 19:47:00 hmmm..... django. yum :) 19:47:00 mizmo: have you tried it yet? 19:47:08 Schendje, just for a few test images 19:47:11 the idea seems great but i haven't tried it myself yet... 19:47:23 it's hard to get a feel for how it would work collaboratively with just one off uploads tho 19:48:22 i 19:48:27 sorry.... 19:48:30 okay i just started an F14 proejct on there 19:48:32 i'd love to help test it 19:48:44 #link http://django.parcodiyellowstone.it/pickpic/singleproject/?projectid=112 19:48:48 join!!! 19:48:51 i should just create an account, right? 19:48:51 i could even poke at the code. django is one of the few code things i understand 19:48:54 cool :D 19:49:06 mizmo: I got errors 19:49:08 oops.... django error 19:49:15 my username on there is mairin 19:49:23 finalzone, fabsh can you guys sign up for accounts first? 19:49:30 * Emichan joined! 19:49:31 it went kaploooooo-ey! 19:49:37 mizmo: just a moment 19:49:39 mizmo: sorry :/ 19:50:02 i have account on pickpic 19:50:35 thats better 19:50:49 still broken on my end 19:50:59 now it works 19:51:08 maxamillion, what's it doing? 19:51:25 "GOOD JOB SCHENDJE" why thank you, dear pickpic! 19:52:00 they need to work on the design... lol ;) 19:52:38 fabsh: i'm thinking the dark grey on black is a little *too* dark 19:52:43 yeh it's a work in progress 19:52:49 it seems they are happy to hear our suggestoins though 19:52:56 cool 19:52:57 fabsh, it's AGPL :) 19:53:14 mizmo: http://www.fpaste.org/o1Xw/ 19:53:18 mizmo: ACE! I love the AGPL. 19:53:32 * fabsh loves his precious AGPL soooo much! :D 19:53:45 maxamillion, what happens if you go here? 19:53:45 maxamillion: i got that too, but it went away after i created an account 19:53:47 http://django.parcodiyellowstone.it/pickpic 19:54:17 mizmo: takes me to a page talking about collaborative toolkit for graphic designers 19:54:29 mizmo: should I register? 19:54:37 maxamillion, yep! then try the link again 19:54:47 so i guess let's make an effort to use pickpic and see how it goes! 19:55:00 if it works well enough maybe we can have our own installation set up 19:55:17 wow ... doesn't even ask for an email address ... interesting 19:55:20 something i wanted to mention..... 19:55:35 GUADEC got me really interested in Gnome Shell theming 19:55:48 I think we should have a look at that soon 19:55:48 mizmo: now it works :) 19:55:54 fabsh, i agree 19:56:00 i dont think gnome shell is going to be default for f14 now 19:56:07 apparently it's all CSS so it should be easier then Gnome 2 theming 19:56:07 but i think it'll be good to get our feet wet in theming for it 19:56:09 fabsh: I brought it up on the list a while back so i'm for it 19:56:12 :) 19:56:14 unfortunately i dont know anything about how to load the CSS into it 19:56:16 mizmo: really? wow! 19:56:19 i know there is a console 19:56:26 ive seen walters work with it before 19:56:30 i've played with the theming a bit 19:56:32 he has tools like firebug for it 19:56:36 Emichan, is it hard? 19:56:36 fasbh: you can do all kinds of things with it, apparently http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/214/3/7/GNOME_Shell___Ambiance_Theme_by_half_left.png 19:56:43 fabsh: look how close that is to the default ubuntu theme :O 19:56:49 it would be cool if we could write a how to or something for it 19:56:49 maybe we should talk to him about it 19:56:49 fabsh: fits really nicely methinks 19:56:54 not at all, esp if you are already familiar w/css 19:56:59 mizmo: console for gnome-shell? 19:57:00 http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell 19:57:05 for install instructions 19:57:06 #action we need to investigate gnome shell theming, it is not hard if you are famliar with css 19:57:11 greetings 19:57:17 v. easy - jhbuild does all the work for you 19:57:20 i'll look into it 19:57:22 maxamillion, yeh, he showed me a live javascript console, so you could set CSS properties and watch them change LIVE 19:57:27 this was months and months ago too 19:57:28 * Schendje will also try some theming 19:57:29 mizmo: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/LookingGlass 19:57:36 mizmo: its looking glass, info in the link :) 19:57:37 brb 19:57:41 * Schendje will do so after he actually get the shell working again haha 19:57:44 maxamillion, that's it!!! 19:57:48 then you just have to edit the gnome-shell.css file 19:57:57 #link http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell/LookingGlass GNOME shell firebug-like tool for editing 19:58:06 #link http://live.gnome.org/GnomeShell GNOME Shell install instructions 19:58:06 gnome-shell can be edited with css?? 19:58:08 i might talk to owen taylor ask him for some pointers on this 19:58:13 I'll put you in touch with Emanuele soon, re pickpic 19:58:22 #info to play with GNOME shell theming, install it then you just have to edit the gnome-shell.css file 19:58:23 i think it's in gnome-shell/source/gnome-shell/src/theme/gnome-shell.css 19:58:25