19:04:56 #startmeeting 19:04:56 Meeting started Tue Jun 1 19:04:56 2010 UTC. The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:04:56 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 19:05:00 yay! okay 19:05:02 wild 19:05:04 cool 19:05:06 Ok, here we go... 19:05:09 so we have 60 minutes and 6 topics 19:05:15 #topic agenda 19:05:28 so let's give each topic 10 minutes 19:05:31 here's the topics: 19:05:36 #1: F14 artwork schedule 19:05:48 #2: LGM 19:05:53 #3: F14 artwork concepts 19:06:04 #4: design team ticket queue - especially EMEA shirt design 19:06:14 #5: design collaboration tools 19:06:20 #6: new www.fpo website 19:06:35 so some of these topics i thought were worth brining up (5 & 6) but if we dont get to them it's cool 19:06:37 #info Topic item #1 - F14 artwork schedule 19:06:45 #topic F14 artwork schedule 19:06:51 #info Topic item #2 - LGM 19:07:00 so poelcat drew up a schedule for us for F14 based on the F13 schedule: 19:07:00 http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-design-tasks.html 19:07:09 has anyone had a chance to look at it? 19:07:10 #info Topic item #3 - F14 artwork concepts 19:07:20 (sorry, just doing this so the bot will pick them up) 19:07:22 and we have key milestones without dates here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork#Key_Milestones 19:07:26 does anyone have concerns about how the schedule went for f13 that we should use to tweak f14's? 19:07:27 * tw2113 passes out clean koolaid and cookies 19:07:36 #info Topic item #4 - design team ticket queue - especially EMEA shirt design 19:07:43 (thanks maxamillion) 19:07:54 timeline looks good for me so far. 19:07:56 #info Topic item #5 - design collaboration tools 19:07:59 me too 19:08:04 I went quickly through poelcat's one and matched some of the dates 19:08:15 i was really really happy with how f13 went this time 19:08:19 #info Topic item #6 - new www.fpo website 19:08:25 yeah, it went rather good 19:08:36 more folks than ever pitched in i think 19:08:41 yup 19:08:42 so we need to keep it up :) 19:08:43 lots of collaboration one single products instead of everyone doing their own thing 19:08:47 getting artwork in the alpha was a huge win 19:08:51 looked good to me, but i just started ;) 19:08:55 yeah, totally 19:09:23 does anyone want to volunteer to copy the dates from poelcat's schedule (http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-design-tasks.html) to the team wiki milestones page? (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork#Key_Milestones) 19:09:26 so we want again artwork in alpha and final wallpaper in beta 19:09:29 tw2113: +1 19:09:42 nicubunu, i think so, then we have a lot more time to get to all the collateral 19:09:52 the schedule looks good enough. of course design can be tweaked should delay occur. 19:09:57 would be even better to get the anaconda and firstboot artwork in the beta too 19:10:04 mizmo, I done some of the in them privately, I'll start posting the dates now and we can check them, right? 19:10:22 also is the .ics available for Thunderbird? 19:10:23 msourada, sounds good! 19:10:24 I can copy/paste the schedule 19:10:38 Ok, starting with wallpapers timeline: 19:10:41 finalzone, i think poelcat can make that happen ill ask him 19:10:46 Concepts submission deadline — 2010-07-06 19:10:55 #action mizmo to talk to poelcat to figure out what the ICS url is for the F14 artwork schedule 19:11:09 ok mizmo 19:11:11 is that yyyy-mm-dd? 19:11:18 yup 19:11:27 international standard 19:11:28 ok, just making sure. thanks! 19:11:30 tatica, it looks like msourada is working on it 19:11:36 you never know... ;) 19:11:42 jeje, I can see :D 19:11:49 #action msourada to copy F14 artwork schedule dates from peolcat's schedule to the f14 artwork wiki page 19:12:00 * liknus sorry for being late 19:12:09 hi liknus 19:12:14 hi all! 19:12:16 liknus, it's all good! we were just talking about the f14 artwork schedule and how things went in f13 19:12:23 * finalzone is greeting liknus 19:12:27 nice nice :) 19:12:33 okay does anyone have any other schedule-related points to bring up? 19:12:43 Southern_Gentlem, the "concept submission deadline" matches end of "conceptual design phase" 19:13:19 okay let's move on to the next topic then :) 19:13:20 I'd like to discuss a bit the alpha wallpapers deadline. 19:13:22 oh okay 19:13:24 sure 19:13:32 mizmo, not just only that :D 19:14:00 looks like the final date for the alpha wallpaper is 3 Aug 2010 19:14:14 ok, so to the deadline: I suggest we push it a little bit back. It's set on the same date as packaging now, but that takes a while (making the package, doing the review, ...) 19:14:46 I think about 3 or 4 days should be enough 19:14:51 anyone against that? 19:14:57 +1 19:15:01 +1 19:15:03 msourada, so if we make the wallpaper due July 31 so you have a few days to do packaging? 19:15:05 +1 19:15:10 msourada: +3...4 or -3...4 19:15:16 maybe july 30 would be better 19:15:16 mizmo, yep 19:15:21 july 30 is a friday 19:15:24 cool 19:15:34 cool sounds like a reasonable change to me 19:15:37 Ok, july 30 sound good. 19:15:42 so seems noone is against, /me jots it down 19:15:51 +1 19:15:53 #agreed move deadline for wallpaper to July 30 to give msourade more time for packaging 19:16:03 next is the Gathering feedback for Alpha wallpapers 19:16:06 (sorry about the typo) 19:16:26 we have the blog about alpha on Aug 3 19:16:27 it obviously starts at the same date as the packaging of the wallpapers, the question is the end. 19:16:37 then beta is due, Sep 7 19:16:51 (i think again we should move sep 7 back a few days so you have time to package) 19:17:12 should we add another task specifically for feedback gathering? 19:17:36 if the blog post goes out aug 3, and the wallpaper is due say sep 3, then we should gather feedback until maybe no later than mid-august 19:17:50 2 weeks to give feedback should be plenty of time, and that gives us at least 2 weeks to tweak the beta design in response 19:18:11 yeah, sounds reasonable, maybe coincide it with the Prepare wallpaper for Beta start? (2010-08-17) 19:18:19 sounds great 19:18:26 i've been doing lots of social media networking lately and follow a lot of designers on twitter/identica, perhaps I could gather up some professional-ish feedback from them as well 19:18:31 not just linux followers 19:18:39 #agreed add new gather feedback task to the f14 artwork schedule: start 3 aug 2010, end 17 aug 2010 19:18:44 tw2113, sounds great 19:18:46 tw2113, that would be amazing 19:18:51 yeh we should do more than just the blog tbh 19:18:55 tw2113: care to share that list somewhere? 19:19:06 ok, next are the supplementary wallpapers 19:19:08 i'd like to follow them as well 19:19:12 blog, fedora forum, fedora-users list, identi.ca... maybe deviant art? 19:19:16 basically we don't have any dates for that set 19:19:21 look at my following/follower list on those accounts 19:19:24 oh wait msourada 19:19:25 mostly twitter admittedly 19:19:26 ok 19:19:33 we'll push the date for the beta wallpaper to give you packaging time too right? 19:19:35 tw2113: ok, will do thanks 19:20:05 right now it's sep-07, that's a tuesday, we'll move it back to the friday before, sep-03? 19:20:14 I need more time only for the initial packaging, updating takes about day or so, but it's harder when there's freeze (we need to gather positive karma) :D 19:20:24 oh okay 19:20:34 so does sep 07 work then msourada? 19:20:40 yup 19:20:44 okay cool no change then 19:20:54 let me note the social networking expansion 19:21:14 #agreed need to gather feedback for alpha wallpaper not just via blog - twitter/identi.ca, forums, users list, etc. 19:21:25 okay next scehdule concern, we need a supplementary wallpaper task added 19:21:27 i can help with that if needed 19:21:31 we definitely dont want to miss those 19:21:37 does the artwork package get tagged as critpath-gnome? 19:21:39 fabsh that would be awesome :) 19:21:52 maxamillion, im not sure :( the thing is the package is a new package / new name every release.... 19:22:06 the supplementary wallpapers item is NOT dependent on anything 19:22:16 mizmo: right, but as I understand it critpath is a moving target up until the freeze 19:22:16 yeh 19:22:31 maxamillion, yup. It's in because of deps from gnome-desktop 19:22:40 i guess it would be good to get the supplementary wallpapers in time for beta just in case 19:22:51 +1 19:22:55 there's a few tasks associated with the supplementals - 19:23:00 #1 gather potential wallpapers 19:23:10 #2 whittle potentials down to a select few (maybe 6-8?) 19:23:17 msourada: ok, then there might need to be some coordination planning with the proventesters group for quick push through on the package since it will need the critpath "blessing" 19:23:20 #3 verify wallpaper licenses with authors / contact authors to thank them 19:23:23 #4 get 'em packaged 19:23:28 maxamillion: I think content-only packages may be treated differently -- for example, fedora-release-notes might be in that category too 19:23:35 stickster: ahhh ok 19:23:36 maxamillion, ah yes 19:23:49 maxamillion: msourada: Definitely deserves some clarification though 19:23:51 stickster: hadn't thought about the code vs. content bit 19:23:56 I * 19:23:56 * stickster eof, sorry mizmo 19:24:09 * maxamillion apparently also is uncapable of typing 19:24:21 does some one want to take up the task of figuring out the critpath issue? 19:24:26 ok, so for #4 we want probably the same date as beta package - i.e. 2010-09-07 19:24:30 mizmo: I will 19:24:34 cool thanks maxamillion 19:24:38 anytime :) 19:24:39 maxamillion++ 19:24:41 mizmo ^^ (my message) 19:24:54 #action figure out critpath blessing for artwork packages in f14 19:24:58 msourada, that seems reasonable 19:25:12 i think for contact with the artists we need to allow at least a week if not more, they can be hard to get in touch with 19:25:23 now the question are the other three. How much time we want to leave for #2 and #3? 19:25:23 im not sure how we will do the selection for the wallpapers 19:25:33 i dont know if we really want to do a vote.... 19:25:56 the person coordinating the supplementals can work in parallel with the process for default graphics 19:26:01 mizmo: set a coordinator and it's his/her call 19:26:02 i can tell you how we did it for RHEL if it helps - 19:26:09 Southern_Gentlem, for #3 leave about, say 10 days? 19:26:17 we had four people involved in the process create flickr galleries of their favorites 19:26:17 sorry, that was for mizmo 19:26:20 then we met and talked about them 19:26:30 nicubunu: maybe also have some input on the mailing list? 19:26:39 and there was one coordinator who picked the final set, he ended up using a few from each person's gallery 19:26:44 are we okay with using flickr for this process? 19:26:56 it's closed source :( and they can be jerks about accounts 19:27:04 fabsh,: surelu, to it transparently, maybe have a 3 people group making the call 19:27:07 but it's really easy to create galleries of cc-licensed images there 19:27:19 nicubunu: +1 19:27:22 is anyone here today willing to be the coordinator for the supplemental wallpapers? 19:27:26 i'm not happy with flickr 19:27:45 okay let's not use flickr then 19:27:47 too bad we don't have tha gallery instance running any more 19:27:49 is there an open source alternative for flickr? 19:27:59 but we can use the wiki 19:28:05 well gallery would be hard to use too... i mean really we could send around emails or wiki pages with the URLs to graphics we like 19:28:07 there won't be many images 19:28:16 what about picassa? 19:28:23 but it's hard to review - you have to look through the images one-by-one by clicking on the links, or the submitter has to upload every single image manually 19:28:36 can mediawiki galleries display remote images? 19:28:40 picasa is just as closed, right? 19:28:40 * mizmo didn't think they could 19:28:49 does picasa run on linux? 19:28:55 daniel_berryhill: picasa is the same thing as flickr, same downsides 19:29:14 picasa = picasaweb 19:29:20 ah okay 19:29:31 oh let me do this real quick 19:29:33 i'd go the wiki way 19:29:34 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/F14_Artwork#Key_Milestones 19:29:41 #link http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-14/f-14-design-tasks.html 19:29:48 * mizmo learning the wonders of zodbot :) 19:29:53 okay cool 19:29:53 I would wish we can have all in the wiki. That would be ONE place for all... 19:29:56 let's do the wiki then 19:30:10 it would be really nice if the wiki could display remote images... maybe there is a way to make it happen 19:30:22 so.... do we have any volunteers to coordinate the supplemental wallpapers? :) 19:30:31 how many do we think we need? 6-8 I'm thinking? 19:30:41 yeah, that sounds reasonable 19:30:52 i don't think i am fit for selecting, as i may send image proposals 19:30:56 #agreed 6-8 wallpapers for the supplemental wallpaper set 19:31:08 (total newbie asks): why not distribute wallpapers in aplha and pick the default from there? 19:31:31 #agreed supplemental wallpaper packaging due date should be 2010-09-07 19:31:32 this is not for the default kambu 19:31:33 I'm not very confident about selecting either. Maybe we could go through the set on a IRC meeting? 19:31:40 ah ok 19:31:43 kambu: because we don't have a way to measure wallpaper usage 19:31:52 yeh we can go through together on irc msourada 19:32:01 has anyone tried jalbum as flickr alternative? 19:32:05 I meant a collecting feedback on the wiki 19:32:15 nicubunu, i think we'll all probably submit some :) so i dont think anyone will be impartial. i think that's okay 19:32:20 mizmo: i can coordinate if you find no one else 19:32:36 are we talking mainly photos here? 19:32:40 mizmo: you mean we're going to get this packaged? https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/File:F13-concept-rocketlines.png ... or this planning for F14 supplemental? 19:32:43 kambu, is jalbum open source? 19:32:51 maxamillion, it's for f14 supplemental 19:32:59 not sure. lemme check 19:33:08 fabsh: we can also have illustrations, like in f12 19:33:12 mizmo: ah, ok ... I just couldn't resist posting the link :D 19:33:17 nicubunu: ok 19:33:19 hehe 19:33:41 http://alternativeto.net/desktop/flickr/ 19:33:45 I think we have to have a tool where we all can collaborate with. jalbum & Co is more or less a singleuser tool I think. 19:33:54 mizmo, so how does it sounds to make the decision on our usual meeting, that will take place at 2010-08-27? (more than week before packaging) Is that enough time to make sure the licensing is OK? 19:34:04 mizmo, that is the page I was looking 19:34:07 wiki is for now in my eyes for collective use a good start. not ideal, but workable. 19:34:31 msourada, if we package them sep-7 then i think 8-27 should be enough time 19:34:50 ok, if noone is against we can decide on that date 19:34:51 +1, wiki for f14, for f15+ we can think at something better 19:34:53 #agreed we will use the wiki to organize submissions for the f14 supplemental wallpapers 19:35:11 fabsh, mainly photos i think, yeh 19:35:15 +1, wiki for f14, for f15+ we can think at something better 19:35:21 mizmo: cool 19:35:32 fabsh, right now gnome comes with its own set of alternative wallpapers, they're kind of nature-y flowers / water / forest kinds of things 19:35:40 mizmo: Jalbum is not completely open source 19:35:43 fabsh, it's a good opportunity for us to show off our own style instead of just copy upstream 19:35:43 http://jalbum.net/developer/license 19:35:53 mizmo: i get you 19:35:58 i think it'd be nice to get some variety instead of always including the usual gnome provided ones 19:36:03 kambu, it is partially open source though i think that is cool 19:36:06 like targeting the categories we talked about in f12 19:36:11 #info jalbum is partially opensource (jalbum.net) 19:36:20 mizmo, we're dragging a bit behind time... can we agree on the 8-27 and move to next milestone? 19:36:26 yep let's move on msourada 19:36:35 +1 19:36:40 +1 19:36:42 #agreed 8-27 due date for deciding the supplemental wallpapers (at the design team meeting in IRC) 19:36:45 +1 19:36:50 +1 19:36:52 aehm oes jalbum use flash...?! 19:36:55 fabsh, should i pencil you in as coordinator? 19:37:03 mizmo: sure :) 19:37:14 ok, so do we want to leave some time before the meeting closed for submissions, so that people can get familiar with it? 19:37:15 #agreed fabsh will coordinate the f14 supplemental wallpapers effort 19:37:28 with *them 19:37:43 msourada, go over how to submit the wallpapers before the end of this meeting? 19:38:31 #agreed 8-26 due date for all wallpaper submissions (to be decided on at 8-27 meeting) 19:38:32 ok 19:38:35 er that's supplemtnal wallpaper submissions 19:38:38 wonderer, I think jalbum uses jquery or somehing 19:38:39 yep 19:39:14 we should try to contact the authors by maybe aug 30 19:39:18 then we have a week to hear back from then 19:39:25 hmm. 38min. and not come over agenda #2 :-) nice :-D 19:39:30 so i think we have a date for all the supplemental tasks now 19:39:39 #agreed contact wallpaper authors by aug 30 19:39:44 lol well this is a big item :) 19:39:51 msourada, did you have any other schedule concerns? 19:40:00 mizmo: leave at least a week, i did this for oggcamp promo material, it takes time 19:40:01 wonderer: agenda #1 is a hard one 19:40:06 :) 19:40:07 mizmo, ok, so lets see the rest of the milesones. In wiki we have I've set separate items for GRUB/Syslinux, Firstboot/Anaconda, KDM/KSplash. In poelcat's schedule there are just beta and final splashes... 19:40:35 fabsh, yeh i did for some wallpapers for rhel :) we'll have aug 30 - sep 7, hopefully enough 19:40:44 mizmo, would it be better to change the milestones and go with poelcat's? 19:40:56 mizmo: ok. will give my best :) 19:41:04 msourada, maybe have one milestone, splashes completed, and list the individual splashes after the milestone name in parentheses? 19:41:31 fabsh, we could push the decision back a week from aug 27 to give you another week to get confirmation from the artists if you'd be more comfortable with that? 19:41:47 hy poelcat. just in time ;-) 19:42:11 i felt something change in the force so I came 19:42:12 mizmo: might be worth it if we can afford that 19:42:16 mizmo, sounds reasonable. Do we want to have beta and final, or just go directly to for final? I don't think we made many changes to the splashes in the past 19:42:29 msourada, i think for the splashes we need to get them into beta - 19:42:49 msourada, there was a last-minute issue that came up with the anaconda ones for f13... so i had maybe 2 hours to fix it :) 19:42:51 poelcat that would be me, i had pizza recently 19:42:52 it sucked 19:43:03 tw2113: TMI 19:43:05 ;-) 19:43:07 if they'd been in beta it would have been a lot more easily fixed 19:43:17 mizmo, ok. So I'll use both the beta deadline and final deadline from poelcat's schedule. Sounds good with anyone? 19:43:22 +1 19:43:27 +1 19:43:40 +1.1 19:43:42 +1 19:43:48 agreed: splash milestones collapsed into one splash item as per poelcat's schedule, using beta deadline 19:43:50 grr 19:43:53 #agreed: splash milestones collapsed into one splash item as per poelcat's schedule, using beta deadline 19:44:14 IOW I don't need to change anything, just leave as is? 19:44:30 poelcat, we have a few changes we went over before you joined :) 19:44:39 okay, i can read logs after 19:44:43 poelcat, cool :) 19:44:48 mizmo, I don't have any more milestone items I want to discuss 19:44:52 okay cool 19:44:58 any last comments on the f14 schedule? 19:45:21 yup, have them early, even if they won't change 19:45:52 nicubunu, msourada: do you guys want to take the rest of the meeting to talk about lgm? 19:46:00 (we have abut 15 min left) 19:46:04 no, only 5 minutes 19:46:15 here's the link to their presentation anyway http://blip.tv/file/3697979 19:46:24 go watch it, cause i said to :) 19:46:24 nicubunu, okay 5 minutes then :) 19:46:27 all the links are at http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/design-team/2010-June/002551.html 19:46:29 hehe... nicubunu, do you think you can fit inside the 5 mins? :D 19:46:31 #topic Fedora design team at LGM 19:46:56 it was the largest LGM ever with the strongest Fedora presence ever 19:46:56 overall how do you guys think your presentation was received? 19:47:04 i saw the video on blip, it was great 19:47:06 very well 19:47:14 yep, I think so too 19:47:23 people coming after and saying "you are doing it right" 19:47:28 yay :) 19:47:32 non-fedora people 19:47:41 ^_^ 19:47:43 It's probably a good idea for the design team to attend on a regular basis on LGM 19:47:46 we are leaders 19:47:56 and people coning the next day and sayiong they talked over beers about how we are doing it right 19:48:24 do you knwo where lgm will be next year? 19:48:26 and people inspired by me saying "the process is more important than the result" 19:48:28 * mizmo hopes montreal again 19:48:32 and lots of people have been asking us how we manage to do the artwork in collaborative way 19:48:44 is not known yet, it may be in Asia 19:48:57 ooh maybe japan ^^ 19:49:00 Canada is a candidate too 19:49:03 tokyo? 19:49:03 * wonderer hopes to attend next time, too ... make the anime croud bigger ;-) 19:49:04 yup, some people are very hyped about Vietnam (me among them :D) 19:49:18 lets hope it will be Vancouver 19:49:20 sweet 19:49:34 i think its good for our team's process to get recognition 19:49:38 this is making me jealous :) 19:49:53 it can be hard to beat to our own drum when it's so easy to do the same as everyone else 19:49:53 actually maybe the next topic should be about some of the collaboration tools i wanted to talk about 19:50:09 I believe liknus set up some wiki page for the formal proposals of the next LGM (he was really productive there) 19:50:12 but we stick to our morals with the topic of freedom 19:50:13 there's some floss projects we might be able to test out to get some better/easier collaboration going 19:50:18 maybe we also could present next time more of our work itself. 19:50:21 * nicubunu personally for getting to talk with andyfitz and garrett 19:50:40 nicubunu, had you ever met them before in person? 19:50:51 mizmo: it was the first time 19:51:02 oh wow lol 19:51:30 * msourada discovered andyfitz going to be working in prague, so I'll have probably more chances to meeting him. Hi said I'm his only friend there :D 19:51:43 oh that's awesome!!!! 19:51:45 s/hi/he 19:51:51 * nicubunu sad to learn andyfitz is going to novell too 19:51:56 mizmo you're listed as our rock star in their presentation 19:52:02 he's going to novell? 19:52:04 * mizmo did not know that 19:52:21 mizmo, yup, that's why he's going to be in prague, they have their office there 19:52:27 cool 19:52:29 andyfitz drank the koolaid? :( 19:52:31 wow... interesting move at this time 19:52:50 aiight! 19:53:12 thanks msourada and nicubunu you guys did an awesome job at LGM and blogging about it too 19:53:24 what is pierros' nick? 19:53:24 pierros was awesome too 19:53:25 my word they blogged about it 19:53:29 * msourada blushes :D 19:53:31 mostly nicubunu but they all helped 19:53:32 is he here? 19:53:48 don't think so 19:53:54 tw2113, nicu totally likes to blog his pictures :D 19:54:08 ah okay 19:54:09 * tw2113 nods 19:54:13 well let's try to squeeze one more topic in 19:54:25 #topic design collaboration tools 19:54:30 i want to show you something i set up last week - 19:54:40 http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/ 19:54:45 http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/forum/1 19:54:53 * sijis loves drupal 19:54:54 it scrapes our mailing list and presents it in blog and forum format 19:55:11 i think using an app like this might make it easier for us to communicate and get more designers to participate 19:55:11 that's pretty cool! :) 19:55:11 mizmo: is that what lmacken put together? 19:55:24 my question here is do we have some concepts what "this" tool should do and what not? 19:55:32 i think mailing lists are really hard to do productive design discussions on (if any of you are subscribed to fedora-users this past week you'll know what im talking about :( ) 19:55:38 this is also good for linking to mailing list posts in a nice way 19:55:39 maxamillion, noppers it's a drupal plugin thing i set up really quick 19:55:48 mizmo: interesting .... :) 19:55:52 wonderer, yeh, kylebaker did a blog post about some ideas for it last week 19:56:00 oh let me link those 19:56:04 #link http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/ 19:56:06 #link http://linuxgrrl.com/drupal/forum/1 19:56:14 mizmo, I think the header is too big 19:56:16 this is more for easier reading right? not really posting? 19:56:20 #link http://blogs.fedoraproject.org/wp/kybaker/2010/05/21/creative-open-sorcery/ 19:56:28 we should collect them in the wiki ... 19:56:29 mizmo, but otherwise looks like a good idea 19:56:30 this helps when discussing topics from the mailing list in other forums 19:56:37 msourada, it's easily tweaked, i just stole the style from an old mockup, it's thrown together really quickly 19:56:40