21:55:06 <mchua> #startmeeting
21:55:06 <zodbot> Meeting started Sun Nov 29 21:55:06 2009 UTC.  The chair is mchua. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:55:06 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
21:55:10 <mchua> #chair tatica
21:55:10 <zodbot> Current chairs: mchua tatica
21:55:37 <tatica> ok, so first question is:
21:55:42 <tatica> *  How well do you think Fedora accomplishes  its stated goals in light of your role in the project?
21:56:04 * mchua looks for the list of Fedora's stated goals
21:56:37 <mchua> reading https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Overview#Our_Mission...
21:56:57 <mchua> "The Fedora Project's mission is to lead the advancement of free and open source software and content as a collaborative community."
21:58:15 <mchua> Thinking about this from the perspective of the Marketing team (in my opinion)...
21:58:41 <mchua> how well are we leading the advancement of marketing free and open source software and content as a collaborative community?
21:59:09 <mchua> I think we're on the forefront of trying to figure out what it means to *do* marketing "the open source way"
22:00:08 <mchua> not just marketing *of* FOSS software and content, but doing that with the same sort of culture that we use for our code.
22:00:29 <mchua> transparency, a do-ocracy, etc.
22:00:45 * mchua throws the other mission elements out there
22:00:48 <mchua> "The Fedora Project consistently seeks to create, improve, and spread free/libre code and content."
22:00:55 <mchua> "The Fedora Project succeeds through shared action on the part of many people throughout our community."
22:01:30 <mchua> I'd say that we're still in the very early stages of being able to do that marketing-wise, but open souce marketing is also still pretty young (compared to open source for code development)
22:02:21 <mchua> Fedora's leadership in other areas is what makes it possible for us to do this in Marketing as well.
22:03:37 <mchua> i.e. first you need a cutting-edge distribution to market before you can market it.
22:03:51 <tatica> true
22:04:06 <mchua> I'm not sure if I'm answering the question directly enough, though.
22:04:21 <tatica> lol, is great; only that I have to read it slow to get it right
22:05:26 <mchua> Oh, okay. So here's one thing I should explain:
22:05:50 <tatica> so, yo usay that os marketing is young... which are some goals you think are need to get it more mature?
22:05:58 <mchua> in my mind, the metric of "success" for Marketing - if, say, one metric for the packagers group is "more packages == good!" or for QA it's "finding and closing bugs == good!"
22:06:21 <mchua> tatica: oh, great! That question actually helps me better-phrase what I wanted to explain.
22:06:22 <tatica> oh, sorry... I'm interrupting you :\
22:06:28 <tatica> lol
22:07:05 <mchua> I think one of the things that FOSS marketing needs to mature is a notion of what kinds of goals - and metrics to measure progress towards those goals - FOSS marketing might have.
22:07:42 <mchua> The same way we count things like "number of commits" or "number of packages" or "number of committers" or "lines of code" or "tickets closed" for coding.
22:08:10 <mchua> Now, keep in mind that my background is in engineering, not in marketing...
22:08:35 <mchua> but I get the sense that usually, in a marketing department for a company, that metric is money. Sales, revenue... basically, income.
22:09:02 <mchua> And that doesn't work as a metric in the Fedora world, because we don't sell anything, our 'users' don't pay us in cash.
22:09:14 <mchua> But what we do hope they will do is to contribute.
22:09:35 <mchua> So "contributions" are our "income," in a way.
22:10:06 <tatica> mchua, ok
22:10:10 <mchua> (Some other projects might measure "users" or "downloads," and we do that too, but I think "contributions" are the metric we would value more.)
22:10:23 <tatica> I have something to say more than a question
22:10:27 <mchua> tatica: go for it.
22:10:45 <tatica> just a random example I was just talking a while.
22:10:58 * mchua is just thinking out loud - trying out these thoughts as I say them, hoping people will disagree and push back and make them better thoughts. ;)
22:11:02 <mchua> tatica: yep?
22:11:44 <tatica> if there was a way to measure how many people are installing with media give in events; (just smolt do) and if we could count how many users install from X dvd
22:11:58 <tatica> and if that dvd Xnumber is reply in several pc after that
22:12:22 <tatica> couldn't that be a (small) way to know if our marketing media is reaching and being used?
22:12:52 <mchua> Yep, that's one good example.
22:13:19 <tatica> obviously this couldn't be measured with stickers or other items
22:13:22 <mchua> That measures usage more than contribution, but it's still a good metric.
22:13:23 * mchua nods
22:13:35 <tatica> great
22:13:47 <mchua> A 'contribution growth' metric might be "how many new FAS users do we have for this release?"
22:13:52 <mchua> er, FAS accounts?
22:13:59 <tatica> nop
22:14:16 <tatica> I mean, new users... then new contributors
22:14:29 <tatica> for example
22:14:37 <mchua> Or to get a little more sophisticated, "how many packages this release were done by people who had never made packages for any prior release?" (to get an idea of how much "new blood" we had in a particular area.)
22:14:47 * mchua waits for tatica's example
22:15:03 <tatica> if we could measure how many people start using fedora with this release, and then we could count how many of them turn into contributors
22:15:35 <mchua> Ooh!
22:15:38 <mchua> I like that.
22:16:10 <tatica> something like linux ID, but as a fedora user
22:16:54 <tatica> so if they turn into contributors
22:17:28 <tatica> you could know since when he/she is using fedora and how long did he/she take to help directly to fedora
22:17:46 <mchua> That would be great.
22:18:11 <tatica> well, just a crazy idea, lol
22:18:20 <mchua> So stepping back a little, one of the questions that we're asking is "how do we encourage folks to come up with the sorts of questions and metrics like the one you just described"
22:18:27 <mchua> "and how can we make it easy for them to find the answers?"
22:19:05 <tatica> ok
22:19:17 <tatica> yes, because next question is difficult, lol
22:20:04 <tatica> is there some goals that are really difficult to get in marketing? even if you already say that FOSS marketing is starting
22:21:20 <mchua> Yep.
22:21:30 <mchua> To wrap up the first question - perhaps a shorter answer to the original question ("How well do you think Fedora accomplishes its stated goals in light of your role in the project?") is the same answer that every other team seems to be giving, which is "well, but we could be doing better."
22:21:38 <mchua> Fedora is doing well, because we have (1) a good distro to market - a distro that's leading the way, advancing FOSS, and truly made by a community, and (2) a good selection of opportunies to contribute that we can market ("hey, you can join these teams and do cool things to help, here's how!").
22:21:43 <mchua> We could be doing better by... and now your second question comes in, so let me try to answer that.
22:22:23 <mchua> tatica: is this question about goals of the Fedora Project itself, or goals of the Marketing team, or both?
22:22:44 <tatica> marketing team, them how they affect fedora project
22:22:49 <mchua> Okay.
22:23:21 <mchua> so if you look at the https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing#What_we_do page
22:23:35 <mchua> our goal is to ensure "that people in Fedora can consistently explain to everyone what Fedora is, why the project can help them, and how they can help the project."
22:23:54 <mchua> let's take those one by one.
22:24:00 <mchua> * consistently explain to everyone what Fedora is
22:24:04 <mchua> this is hard.
22:24:28 <mchua> we're in the middle of lots of discussions (on f-a-b, mostly) on "what is Fedora?"
22:24:42 <mchua> if we can't explain it to ourselves, how can we go explain it to other people?
22:25:19 <mchua> So that goal is difficult to reach because it seems like Fedora, as a community, is still trying to figure out what Fedora (as a project, and as a distribution) is.
22:25:25 <mchua> next:
22:25:31 <mchua> * why the project can help them
22:25:36 <mchua> This is also hard.
22:25:45 <mchua> First, because we don't know who "them" is.
22:26:08 <mchua> (And these are all things that the Marketing team also needs to work on, and help solve and figure out, it's not something we should just sit back and wait for an answer on.)
22:26:16 <mchua> (in my opinion.)
22:26:25 <tatica> lol
22:26:26 <tatica> true
22:26:47 <mchua> If we don't know who our users are, who we're targeting for our contributors, it's hard for us to say "here's how this helps you."
22:26:53 <mchua> Same thing for the last point
22:26:56 <mchua> * how they can help the project.
22:27:10 <mchua> It's pretty easy, I think, to figure out how Fedora helps you and how you can help fedora
22:27:14 <mchua> once we know who "you" are.
22:27:25 <mchua> But we need a target to aim at.
22:27:38 <mchua> Or maybe we need a way to figure out a target to aim at.
22:28:05 <tatica> * How is Fedora not meeting those goals?
22:28:13 <tatica> do you think we are missing something?
22:28:49 <mchua> tatica: Yes, but this is something that's hard for me to explain, so tell me if I'm making sense here...
22:29:15 <mchua> I think that what we're missing is a sense of what it's like for a beginner.
22:29:49 <mchua> Fedora has been leading the advancement of FOSS for so long, it's sort of become "normal" for us to do this.
22:29:52 <mchua> (which is good.)
22:30:03 <mchua> but part of leading is not just being out in front, but making it possible for others to follow after you.
22:30:08 <mchua> to teach, in a way.
22:30:32 <mchua> And I think that sometimes people look and go "wow, they're leading... and I have no idea how they do this magical open source thing!"
22:30:55 <mchua> or "wow, that's really cutting-edge... and it's not for me, I don't see how a new person like me could get started, and learn to be at that level."
22:31:17 <mchua> Which - if Marketing's mission is to grow the user base and the contributor base of Fedora (which is another way of wording it)
22:31:25 <mchua> makes it really hard for us to do our job, because the barrier to entry is so high.
22:31:37 <mchua> tatica: ...does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm being clear here.
22:31:45 <tatica> yes, completely
22:31:55 <tatica> I live that myself :)
22:32:38 <tatica> ohh, see this question
22:32:38 <mchua> There's a t-shirt that I saw (I think it was a Red Hat shirt) and really liked.
22:32:41 <tatica> I think is great
22:32:47 <mchua> it said "You're free, now go and help the others"
22:32:55 <mchua> I think we do the "you're free" part really, really well
22:33:08 <tatica> lol
22:33:13 <mchua> and that by being super-transparent we've left a trail that other people can follow
22:33:25 <tatica> I think people get scared when they see too much success
22:33:29 <mchua> and doing things like having *all* our infrastructure, content, tools, and so on being open source.
22:33:34 <mchua> so anyone can pick it up and clone it.
22:33:35 * mchua nods
22:33:52 <mchua> tatica: I would phrase that as "I think people get scared when they see success, and don't understand how it was done - it looks like magic to them."
22:34:05 <tatica> lol.. .that's it!
22:34:13 <tatica> see read this now
22:34:15 <tatica> Helo Mel!
22:34:15 <tatica> I'm very excited to participate in this "personas" make
22:34:15 <tatica> *  How well do you think Fedora accomplishes  its stated goals in light of your role in the project?
22:34:15 <tatica> * How is Fedora not meeting those goals?
22:34:15 <tatica> * What questions do you have about Fedora's target audience that you'd like to see answers so that your team can help get Fedora closer to its goals?
22:34:19 <tatica> AHHH
22:34:21 <tatica> long paste
22:34:24 <mchua> I think we can do a better job of "going back and helping the others."
22:34:26 <tatica> just last one... sorry
22:34:26 * mchua grins
22:34:42 <mchua> tatica: what questions do I have about Fedora's target audience?
22:34:46 <mchua> Uh... well, "what is it?"
22:34:48 <tatica> yes
22:34:52 <tatica> and sorry about long paste
22:34:55 <mchua> no worries.
22:35:08 <mchua> I'd ask a few questions.
22:35:11 <mchua> What is our target audience?
22:35:21 <mchua> And how does our answer to that question change?
22:35:52 <mchua> (By that I mean "is the target audience something that the board decides on once and it's that way forever? or is it something all of us as individuals decide at any time? or where in between the two is it?")
22:36:25 <mchua> And once we have a target audience, there are some questions I would want to ask that audience.
22:36:52 <mchua> (And I would hope that target audience includes existing Fedora contributors, Fedora users who are not contributors, and people who are not Fedora users.)
22:36:59 <mchua> For those who are contributors:
22:37:03 <mchua> * how did you start using Fedora?
22:37:08 <mchua> * how did you start contributing to Fedora?
22:37:14 <mchua> (I'd like stories for these)
22:37:25 <mchua> * tell me stories of cool Fedora contribution experiences you've had
22:37:48 <mchua> * and stories of things you've tried to do within the Fedora community but which were really frustrating (whether they worked out in the end or not)
22:38:03 <mchua> like "I tried to make X happen, but it was blocked by Y and Z, and this is really aggravating"
22:38:30 <mchua> This next question is a weird one, and I don't like the way I'm phrasing it right now, but...
22:39:15 <mchua> * "If you could make 10 clones of anybody in the Fedora community, who would you clone?"
22:39:24 <tatica> LOL
22:39:35 <tatica> +1
22:39:47 <mchua> What I'm trying to get with that question is "who is doing valuable things, but is the only person doing those things and should not be?"
22:40:07 <mchua> for instance, we should have 1 FPL (as a position), not 10
22:40:37 <mchua> but maybe an additional 10 people in QA might give us "more benefit" in a way that another 10 packagers might not, because we have more packagers than QA people right now
22:40:44 <mchua> (this may not be a good example)
22:41:08 <mchua> so that would help us figure out where we need to concentrate, for recruiting.
22:41:24 <tatica> I'm curious, how do you think the "10 clones" question could help fedora to get closer to their goals?
22:41:31 <tatica> lol... you just answer my question
22:41:37 <mchua> :)
22:41:52 <tatica> ok, another one
22:42:26 <tatica> once you know what people you need (to start), how do you think to recruit them?
22:42:45 <mchua> I'd want to start with people who are Fedora users, but not contributors
22:42:58 <mchua> because I think we're usually motivated to make the things we use better :)
22:43:08 <mchua> some questions I might have, for people who use Fedora but don't contribute to it:
22:43:13 <mchua> * how did you start using Fedora?
22:43:17 <mchua> * did you know you can contribute to Fedora?
22:43:33 <mchua> (I think a lot of folks either don't know that, or don't realize that this applies to them)
22:43:57 <mchua> (you know, the "oh, they mean other people who Know How To Do Things can contribute, I don't know how to do this" sort of thing)
22:44:18 <tatica> yup
22:44:39 <mchua> * what things do you enjoy doing (because we can probably find a way that this will help us out) or what things do you want to learn (because you can learn by doing it and also help us out that way)?
22:44:54 <tatica> so basically, is a "ge to know them better" issue
22:44:55 <mchua> and that's how I would recruit them.
22:44:57 <mchua> Yep.
22:45:03 <mchua> I think it needs to be individual-to-individual.
22:45:23 <tatica> beside do questions, what else would you like to do?
22:45:29 <mchua> (This fits in with my notion of the Marketing Team as helping Ambassadors do their job.)
22:46:12 <mchua> Analogy: If FOSS is water, and the goal is to get everybody wet, Marketing makes the water balloons, Ambassadors throw them.
22:46:28 <mchua> tatica: what else would I like to do? hm.
22:46:30 <tatica> LOL! that was so awesome
22:47:07 <mchua> I would like to host more "getting started" events - FADs, but with the explicit purpose of inviting new contributors to make their first contribution there. ("We'll teach you what you need to get started.")
22:47:43 <mchua> That would be an Ambassadors type thing, I think. But Marketing could help with the materials and the infrastructure for that, so Ambassadors can focus more on deploying and actually working with people at their event.
22:47:57 * tatica feels that this answer is perfect for what she is doing in latam :$
22:48:05 <mchua> I would like to be able to measure contributions from two different points of view.
22:48:47 <mchua> The first one is from the project point of view (or maybe the subproject point of view, even) - how do we make it possible for people to ask and answer the sorts of questions like the ones you were asking earlier?
22:49:59 <mchua> questions like "how many contributors first started using Fedora with F11 as opposed to F12?" or "how long does it take someone to figure out how to make their first package?" or "how many bugs does someone usually find on their first Test Day" or "out of 100 design students who install this spin, how many of them end up coming back and contributing to the Design Team"?
22:50:20 <mchua> The second one is from the individual contributor point of view.
22:50:47 <mchua> A better way of phrasing that is "How do we make it easier for people to make portfolios that showcase the work they do in the Fedora community?"
22:51:53 <mchua> For instance, I know people use the work they do in Fedora as examples when they're applying for school, or for jobs. And I know that schools and employers look at Fedora contributors as one source of good students/employees.
22:52:45 <mchua> Fedora as a distribution showcases the best in free and open source software. Or rather, we make it possible for the best in free and open source software to showcase themselves.
22:52:47 <tatica> as (professional ) reference
22:53:23 <mchua> And we should make this true for people as well as code. Give people the ability to display the value they're contributing *and* the value they're getting from contributing.
22:53:57 <tatica> as a portfolio
22:53:58 <mchua> tatica: yeah, it's tricky because I *love* the Fedora community's focus on "being rather than seeming"
22:54:14 <mchua> that is, we do good work, rather than worrying about "do I look good"
22:54:26 <tatica> yeap
22:54:39 <tatica> so main goal is to be both
22:54:52 <tatica> be good and also show that we are good enough to bring new people
22:55:05 <tatica> but they need to understand that if they want to archieve new goals
22:55:08 <mchua> Yep. It's a balance.
22:55:13 <tatica> they will have to work too
22:55:39 <tatica> this is excelent mchua
22:55:48 <tatica> mchua, anything else you want to say?
22:55:56 <tatica> I'm out of questions :)
22:56:10 <mchua> But if we *seem* to be something, it *has* to be because we *are* that something.
22:56:15 <mchua> I think it's a good problem to have, to be good but not have people realize it yet. It's a better problem than having people think you're really good at something that you're not actually good at.
22:56:26 * mchua finishes typing up that thought
22:56:34 <mchua> tatica: hrm. Uh... yes, I do have one more thing.
22:56:52 <mchua> The biggest question in my mind for Marketing right now, for the F13 release cycle
22:56:58 <mchua> is "how can we get more Marketers to do Marketing?"
22:57:15 <mchua> and that colors a lot of how I look at Fedora's goals, and the Marketing team's goals, for the next 6 months.
22:57:27 <mchua> The place that question comes from is this:
22:57:43 <mchua> if you look in the Infrastructure team, you see a lot of sysadmins being sysadmins
22:58:05 <mchua> if you look in the engineering teams you see engineers being engineers
22:58:16 <mchua> if you look in the documentation teams you see writers being writers
22:58:55 <mchua> but if you look in the Marketing team - I mean, take me as an example, I'm an engineer trying really hard to figure out what "marketing" is
22:59:12 <mchua> and I would like to be able to look at Marketing 6 months from now and see marketers doing marketing.
23:00:13 <tatica> yes, I completely understand
23:00:30 <tatica> I'm a programmer trying to do artwork
23:00:34 <mchua> not necessarily that they've studied marketing, or are a marketer for their day job, but people who want to "have their marketing hat on" when volunteering for Fedora stuff.
23:01:02 <mchua> tatica: and you do it very well :)
23:01:22 <tatica> lol, I'm still learning
23:01:26 <tatica> but I get your point
23:01:46 <tatica> might new tactics to reach marketing and commerce universities could help?
23:02:00 <tatica> try to make our programmers do something that claims their attention?
23:02:14 <mchua> The contributions that a small handful of people with a marketing background have made to the F12 cycle are *so* extraordinary that I would *love* to see more of that.
23:02:18 <mchua> So yes, I think that would be awesome.
23:02:38 <mchua> Reaching out to schools and students of marketing as a user group and being able to show them... what was the phrasing before?
23:02:47 <mchua> "how Fedora helps you, how you can help Fedora"
23:02:52 <tatica> yes
23:03:03 <tatica> exactly what I'm doing in latam with this release party
23:03:18 <mchua> (and people who are not students, but who are marketers, too.)
23:03:20 <mchua> tatica: REALLY? YAY!
23:03:37 <tatica> latam people will teach people to *do* things (packages, artwork, programming... ) and everything they do
23:03:42 <tatica> will remain as part of fedora
23:03:46 <mchua> imo, that is *exactly* right
23:03:53 <mchua> capacity-building is vital.
23:04:00 <tatica> obviously with be basic stuff, but if they like the results
23:04:10 <tatica> they will know that they *are* inside the project
23:04:17 <mchua> doing more things ourselves is great - getting other people to the point where they can help us do more of it is even better. ;)
23:04:18 <tatica> is not something like a wall or anything difficult
23:04:20 <mchua> tatica: +100000
23:04:50 <tatica> I think a lot of contributors doesn't know that they *really* can help this project
23:05:26 <mchua> "This awesome stuff we do isn't magic; it's hard work, but you can help tremendously. Here's how."
23:05:28 <tatica> because they don't have people to exploit their skills
23:05:33 <mchua> tatica: YES
23:05:40 <tatica> or doesn't know the tools
23:06:00 <tatica> a few people aren't too happy with venezuela installfest
23:06:18 <tatica> think that we should people the "release notes" and teach them how to install
23:06:35 <tatica> but I plan to use live dvd's, and show them what's inside that dvd
23:06:38 <tatica> how to use it
23:06:41 <tatica> and then say to them
23:07:11 <mchua> (there's a picture from the first POSSE this summer that I think you'd like, it's of a whiteboard... trying to see if I can find it)
23:07:11 <tatica> "did you like this environment? did you had a great time learning and helping us? ok... then use it!"
23:07:19 <tatica> oki
23:07:23 <mchua> Oh, I'm *so* looking forward to hearing more about that
23:07:43 <mchua> here it is!
23:07:44 <mchua> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ianweller/3740350432/in/set-72157621755223020/
23:07:51 <mchua> I'll transcribe, because it's text
23:08:21 <mchua> the photo says: participation barriers
23:08:21 <mchua> 1. I don't have it
23:08:21 <mchua> 2. I'm not allowed to use it
23:08:21 <mchua> 3. I'm not allowed to play with it
23:08:21 <mchua> 4. I don't know I can tweak it
23:08:59 <mchua> 5. I don't know how to tweak it
23:08:59 <mchua> 6. I don't know why I'd tweak it
23:08:59 <mchua> 7. I don't know anyone would care about my tweaks (that I should "push them upstream")
23:09:03 <mchua> 8. I don't know who would care about my tweaks ("which upstream should I push to?")
23:09:14 <mchua> 9. I don't know how to approach [upstream]
23:09:30 <mchua> (in other words, sometimes we get annoyed with new people when they come in because they don't know how to ask questions and such.)
23:09:44 <mchua> (but how are they supposed to know how we want them to ask questions?)
23:09:59 <tatica> LOL this is great, I think I could do a poster with this that says "the 10 rules you should break" :D
23:10:07 <mchua> 10. I don't know that the [preceding 9 barriers on this list] aren't my fault.
23:10:26 <mchua> (not that they can't do anything to overcome those barriers, but that we should start seeing those as "bugs in our community we need to fix")
23:10:54 <mchua> (rather than "well if they *really* want to contribute to FOSS they'll find Ways to Overcome Them")
23:11:11 <mchua> tatica: heh, that would be awesome
23:11:30 <mchua> tatica: so if Marketing has a "list of bugs we're working on," those 10 would certainly be on there.
23:11:36 <mchua> to use a more familiar metaphor.
23:12:01 <mchua> (because I'm an engineer... but note that the word "bugs" may not necessarily mean anything to a marketing student, say.)
23:12:22 <mchua> tatica: ...and now I think I'm done and out of ideas and things to say, unless you had any other questions :)
23:12:33 <tatica> not right now
23:12:35 <tatica> :D
23:12:44 <mchua> Ok, I think we're set then.
23:12:46 <mchua> This was fun!
23:12:53 <tatica> really, so awesome
23:13:02 * tatica will need help with zodbot :\
23:13:22 <mchua> tatica: to end logging, type #endmeeting
23:13:28 <tatica> ok
23:13:37 <tatica> #endmeeting