18:00:00 <nirik> #startmeeting Web Browsers and Web tools in Fedora
18:00:01 <zodbot> Meeting started Sun Oct  3 18:00:00 2010 UTC.  The chair is nirik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:01 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:01 <nirik> #meetingname web-browsers-web-tools
18:00:01 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'web-browsers-web-tools'
18:00:01 <nirik> #topic Introduction
18:00:14 <nirik> Welcome everyone, to another Fedora IRC Classroom session.
18:00:35 <nirik> Today I am going to be talking about web browsers and some web tools available in fedora.
18:00:56 <nirik> Some of them you will all know, but others may be not as well known.
18:01:21 <nirik> As always, feel free to jump in with questions as we go...
18:01:58 <nirik> Shall we dive in then?
18:02:09 <nirik> #topic toolkits
18:02:21 <nirik> There are a number of web browsers available in fedora.
18:02:31 <nirik> Groups of them use the same backend processing toolkits.
18:03:05 <nirik> The big ones are:
18:03:10 <nirik> * xulrunner
18:03:26 <nirik> This is the gecko engine used by firefox and the mozilla products.
18:03:32 <nirik> * webkit
18:04:02 <nirik> This toolkit has gtk and qt ports as well as other os ports.
18:04:10 <nirik> konqueror uses qtwebkit
18:04:22 <nirik> many of the gnome browsers use webkitgtk
18:04:47 <nirik> There are some other ones out there, but those are the biggies
18:05:14 <nirik> These backends control rendering the raw html stream into a web page, and other convience functions.
18:05:39 <nirik> so, if there's a particular bug in one of these, you would probibly see it in any browser that uses that toolkit.
18:06:17 <nirik> any questions on toolkits? Just wanted to go over that for background...
18:06:52 <nirik> ok, moving along then...
18:07:09 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup
18:07:37 <nirik> I will spend just a minute or two going over each of the browsers available in fedora...
18:07:56 <nirik> if anyone has others I missed at the end, feel free to chime in with them.
18:08:22 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: arora
18:08:34 <nirik> First up (in alpha order ;) is arora
18:08:43 <nirik> This is a qtwebkit based browser.
18:09:00 <nirik> It's pretty nice and small and fast... and has many of the features the other webkit browsers have.
18:09:18 <nirik> You can use mozilla plugins with it (as with many of the webkit browsers).
18:09:43 <nirik> There's a very nice web inspector that lets you measure performance of pages, and gather all sorts of data on them.
18:10:02 <nirik> some screenshots: http://code.google.com/p/arora/wiki/Screenshots
18:10:51 <nirik> This is a nice small webkit browser. I would suggest trying it particularly if you are using QT based apps otherwise.
18:11:13 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: dillo
18:11:24 <nirik> dillo has been around a long time... but many people don't know of it.
18:11:35 <nirik> It's a VERY small/VERY fast little web browser.
18:11:56 <nirik> unfortunately it's so fast becase it's not as featurefull as many other browsers these days.
18:12:37 <nirik> It doesn't use any of the backends, it's it's own thing... it has no plugin or javascript support.
18:12:43 <nirik> http://www.dillo.org/screenshots/index.html for some screenshots.
18:13:05 <nirik> I would suggest using dillo if you need something thats lightning fast, but doesn't need js, or are very memory constrained.
18:13:51 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: epiphany
18:14:06 <nirik> epiphany is a gnome/webkitgtk based browser.
18:14:20 <nirik> it's got a lot of features, but has a nice simple interface.
18:14:46 <nirik> This is the default upstream gnome browser.
18:14:52 <nirik> http://projects.gnome.org/epiphany/ for screenshots.
18:15:14 <nirik> It has it's own extensions system as well as being able to load mozilla plugins.
18:15:44 <nirik> I would suggest using this one if you are a gnome user and want a simple easy to use browser.
18:15:53 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: firefox
18:16:04 <nirik> Anyone ever heard of this niche browser? ;)
18:16:22 <nirik> This is the default browser shipped with many Fedora spins and desktops.
18:16:35 <nirik> it's gecko/xulrunner based.
18:17:17 <nirik> I would suggest using this if you want a fully featured browser that does everything. :)
18:17:28 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: galeon
18:17:50 <nirik> galeon is another gnome/gtk browser.
18:18:01 <nirik> It's based on gecko/xulrunner instead of webkit however.
18:18:13 <nirik> http://galeon.sourceforge.net/Main/Screenshots has screenshots.
18:18:33 <nirik> It's a good choice if you use gnome, want a simple easy to use browser, and have run into a webkit bug. ;)
18:18:47 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: konqueror
18:18:57 <nirik> Here we have the default KDE browser
18:19:45 <nirik> This browser is well integrated into KDE and used for many things there.
18:19:57 <nirik> It's worth noting that this is in the fedora 'kdebase' package if you are looking for it.
18:20:05 <nirik> http://www.konqueror.org/features/ has a features list and more information.
18:20:47 <nirik> I would suggest using this if you are using KDE and want a more featurefull browser than arora provides.
18:21:00 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: midori
18:21:08 <nirik> midori is the Xfce web browser.
18:21:27 <nirik> it's webkitgtk based and designed to be very fast and small memory friendly.
18:21:46 <nirik> It has it's own plugin/extension system as well as being able to use mozilla plugins.
18:22:59 <nirik> http://www.twotoasts.de/index.php?/pages/midori_summary.html has some more info and screenshots.
18:23:21 <nirik> I would suggest using midori if you are using Xfce or another small gtk based desktop, or want a smaller/lighter browser.
18:23:34 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: uzbl
18:23:46 <nirik> uzbl is another gtk/webkit based browser.
18:24:09 <nirik> it has a sort of different design/philospohy.
18:24:18 <nirik> http://www.uzbl.org/
18:24:41 <nirik> It tries to make the browser as simple as possible and easily integrated with other commands or data.
18:25:24 <nirik> there is a browser based on it's core module, but it's designed so you can build your own commands and such.
18:25:51 <nirik> I would recommend uzbl if you have a specific browser setup need or want to design such a setup.
18:26:05 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: links
18:26:14 <nirik> now a few text mode browsers. ;)
18:26:46 <nirik> links is a text mode browser that does tables and frames nicely.
18:27:04 <nirik> http://links.sourceforge.net/ and http://links.sourceforge.net/screenshots/this_page.png
18:27:21 <nirik> it does colors and is nice to look at some simple pages when you don't have a gui session available.
18:27:51 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: lynx
18:28:01 <nirik> there is also a 'lynx' text mode web browser.
18:28:16 <nirik> This one is much more simple than links.
18:28:19 <nirik> http://lynx.isc.org/
18:28:41 <nirik> This is a usefull tool if you need to view the text of some page quickly and without hassle.
18:28:50 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: w3m
18:28:59 <nirik> Finally, the king of the text mode web browsers.
18:29:22 <nirik> http://w3m.sourceforge.net/
18:29:41 <nirik> w3m does frames and colors and can do a pretty nice job of rending web pages in a text window.
18:30:08 <nirik> if you are using a terminal that can handle it, it can also display images in the terminal.
18:30:31 <nirik> #topic Browser roundup: q&a and others
18:30:49 <nirik> So, those are the major ones... there are in fact a number of others available too. It's a very rich space
18:30:59 <nirik> Does anyone have any general questions on any of the above browsers?
18:31:04 <DiscordianUK> Err so there are a few more : like firefox or did I miss that bit
18:31:48 <nirik> yeah, I mentioned firefox. ;)
18:32:03 <nirik> not too much to say there, as most people probibly know it well.
18:32:08 <DiscordianUK> yeah
18:32:12 <PhilipPhilip> nirik, I like the feature of the page inspector in arora - do other browsers have similar features, like firefox, just search for the rquivalent plugin?
18:32:47 <nirik> PhilipPhilip: the inspector is a webkit thing. So, most webkit browsers will have that... modori, arora, etc...
18:32:50 <fenris02> nirik, did anyone ever package amaya recently?  or just too messy of a source tarball?
18:32:59 <nirik> firefox has a number of plugins that do similar things...
18:33:01 <PhilipPhilip> ah i see.
18:33:11 <nirik> I think firebug(?) is one?
18:33:25 <DiscordianUK> There are few others too which while not in Fedora/RPMFusion's repos are available for Fedora : Google's Chrome Beta, and Opera
18:33:37 <nirik> fenris02: it was not being developed for a long time... so if it is again, someone could.
18:33:38 <fenris02> yes, firebug and related tools for firefox do more than 'page inspector'
18:33:47 <fenris02> nirik, *nod*
18:34:05 <nirik> DiscordianUK: yep. There are a number not available directly in fedora, but available for fedora.
18:34:06 <fenris02> DiscordianUK, chromium or google's chrome?
18:34:29 <nirik> #info repos.fedoraproject.org has chromium and firefox4 repositories for interested folks.
18:34:34 <DiscordianUK> Well spot has a chromium package in his repos
18:34:46 * nirik hasn't looked at firebug, but webkit inspector does a lot these days. ;)
18:34:55 <DiscordianUK> and google chrome is in Google's Yum repo
18:35:05 <DiscordianUK> Both stable and beta versions
18:35:11 * nirik nods.
18:35:19 <DiscordianUK> I use Chrome these days
18:35:24 <PhilipPhilip> ta nirik
18:35:57 <nirik> ok, any other general web browser questions/comments?
18:36:25 <DiscordianUK> i assume w3m on the console uses SDL
18:36:49 <kc8hfi_> either that or ncurses
18:37:16 <nirik> I'm not sure off hand... would have to look.
18:37:30 <nirik> it can basically do everything except javascript and flash. ;)
18:37:33 <DiscordianUK> Well if it does graphics
18:37:54 <DiscordianUK> I doubt it uses ncurses for that
18:38:16 <kc8hfi_> yeah, probably not
18:38:48 <DiscordianUK> I hadn't heard of uzbl
18:38:50 <nirik> it doesn't require sdl at least.
18:39:02 <nirik> anyhow, can look and see at some point on that DiscordianUK.
18:39:20 <nirik> Shall we move along to some simple web tools available in fedora?
18:39:45 <DiscordianUK> sorry
18:39:59 <nirik> no problem at all.
18:40:05 <nirik> #topic Simple web tools
18:40:18 <nirik> So, there are a number of handy web interacting tools in fedora.
18:40:27 <nirik> First up are the basic "get this file for me"
18:40:36 <nirik> wget is the simpilest of these.
18:40:52 <nirik> http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/
18:41:11 <nirik> it supports cookies and resuming and many other features.
18:41:25 <nirik> Many people use 'wget' as their first tool to fetch things.
18:42:02 <nirik> Next up in this same space is curl.
18:42:29 <nirik> curl has a command line tool to fetch things that has the same feature set as wget.
18:42:42 <nirik> curl also however has a library, making it easy for other packages to use a curl backend.
18:42:44 <nirik> http://curl.haxx.se/
18:43:21 <nirik> Most folks find wget easier from the command line, but a large number of programs employ curl on the backend.
18:43:42 <nirik> Another downloader thats worth a quick mention is 'urlgrabber'.
18:44:07 <nirik> This is a VERY simple tool to download files, and it's backend is used by 'yum', so everyone who uses fedora uses it.
18:44:22 <nirik> http://urlgrabber.baseurl.org/
18:44:37 <nirik> It's a python library, but there is a command line tool as well.
18:45:29 <nirik> I'll note a nice factoid I learned a while back.
18:45:53 <nirik> To debug urlgrabber issues: 'export URLGRABBER_DEBUG=1' and you will get a TON of debug from urlgrabber or things that use it (like yum)
18:46:54 <nirik> ok, there are a bunch more of these downloaders available, but those are the big ones.
18:46:57 <loomsen> there's also aria2 for metalinks... http://aria2.sourceforge.net/
18:47:31 <nirik> loomsen: yep.
18:47:39 <loomsen> i quite like it
18:47:51 <nirik> also, lftp is one that use a fair bit... mostly for it's 'mirror' feature.
18:48:01 <nirik> any folks have any others worth mentioning?
18:48:34 <PhilipPhilip> is bog standard "ftp" defunct now nirik ?
18:48:55 <nirik> PhilipPhilip: not really defunct, but it lacks many of the features people like these days.
18:49:14 <DiscordianUK> and the ftp protocol as such is insecure
18:49:15 <nirik> for example, it requires you to be interactive and login, instead of just passing a single url and having it download
18:49:30 <nirik> yeah, ftp has pretty largely given way to http
18:49:30 <PhilipPhilip> aye, insecurities the main issue
18:49:59 <nirik> it's worth noting that most if not all of the browsers mentioned earlier also have download ability...
18:50:31 <nirik> ok, moving on from downloaders... some other web utils:
18:51:10 <nirik> http_ping is a nice simple command line tool to download/get a url and determine your speed from the indicated site.
18:51:24 <nirik> ie:
18:51:26 <nirik> http_ping http://fedoraproject.org
18:51:26 <nirik> 6601 bytes from http://fedoraproject.org: 58.977 ms (15.761c/24.658r/18.558d)
18:52:09 <nirik> httping is similar
18:53:07 * nirik realizes he hasn't been tweaking the topic.
18:53:12 <nirik> #topic Performance tools
18:53:44 <nirik> httperf is a nice tool for looking at web performance.
18:54:49 <nirik> http://www.hpl.hp.com/research/linux/httperf/
18:55:14 <nirik> And related, if you are testing performance or wanting to stress test your site, 'siege' is a nice tool.
18:55:42 <nirik> siege can autogenerate a load of any type you like against your site.
18:56:00 <nirik> You do have to be carefull that you don't hit a DOS level of testing. ;)
18:56:17 * DiscordianUK chuckles
18:56:18 * nirik sees he's running low on time.
18:56:23 <nirik> #topic Other http tools
18:56:38 <nirik> Any other general web tools folks would like to mention/go over?
18:57:24 <loomsen> surl for cli short url creation
18:57:53 <nirik> loomsen: good one. ;)
18:58:14 <loomsen> :)
18:58:34 * nirik sees they don't have support for the new google one yet. ;)
18:58:57 <nirik> #topic Questions and Answers
18:58:58 <loomsen> goo.gl didnt release an API yet
18:59:06 <nirik> loomsen: that would explain it.
18:59:28 <nirik> ok, any general questions? things folks would like to see convered in another session?
18:59:28 <loomsen> searched for it recently as i wrote my own surl script in bash :)
18:59:49 <PhilipPhilip> surl doesn;t appear to have a man page, you wouldnt be able to provide a quic usage for me please nirik / loomsen
19:00:02 <nirik> PhilipPhilip: try 'surl --help'
19:00:06 <PhilipPhilip> ok
19:00:19 <PhilipPhilip> yep, thanks
19:00:30 <loomsen> PhilipPhilip: no need for a manpage :)
19:00:47 * PhilipPhilip is a noob
19:00:54 <nirik> no problem, good question.
19:01:13 <nirik> well, if no more questions I will go ahead and close things out...
19:02:04 <nirik> Thanks for coming everyone!
19:02:13 <nirik> #endmeeting