10:00:00 <spevack> #startmeeting
10:00:00 <zodbot> Meeting started Thu Jan  7 15:01:16 2010 UTC.  The chair is spevack. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
10:00:00 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
10:01:00 <spevack> #topic Fedora Classroom -- Ambassadors Tips & Training
10:01:00 <sspreitzer> threethirty, its a french airport, they dont care about things like security as long as you speak french with them. ^^
10:01:00 <spevack> Hi everyone!
10:01:00 <threethirty> hi max
10:01:00 <biertie> hi mr spevack
10:01:00 <sspreitzer> hey max
10:01:00 <cmpahar> hello
10:01:00 <loupgaroublond> 'afternoon all
10:01:00 <derikonto> hello
10:01:00 <spevack> Welcome to what is, I think, the first Fedora Classroom session of 2010.
10:01:00 <slipp3d> good day to all...
10:01:00 <cunningham> Hi All
10:01:00 <franciscod> hey everyone
10:02:00 <tatica> *\o/*
20:02:22 * \o/* 
10:02:00 <cmpahar> it's the third session :P
10:02:00 <spevack> It's certainly the first Fedora Ambassadors Tips & Training session of 2010 -- we did a few of these sessions last year, but I haven't done one for probably 5 months or so, which means it's definitely time to do it again
10:03:00 <biertie> it's the first time I'm here anyway, so I am looking forward to learn ;)
10:03:00 <cwtucker> +1
10:03:00 <threethirty> +1
10:03:00 <derikonto> +1
10:03:00 <spevack> This is going to be a very interactive session -- I am going to try to ask some questions, and I hope that you guys will give responses, and ask questions of your own
10:04:00 <spevack> My goal is to be finished in 90 minutes, so we have a lot of time.
10:04:00 <spevack> Here's a general agenda for today:
10:04:00 <spevack> (1) What the Fedora Ambassadors project is, and why it is important.
10:04:00 <spevack> (2) What the Fedora Ambassadors project is *not*.
10:04:00 <spevack> (3) How Fedora Ambassadors interact with other parts of the larger Fedora Project.
10:05:00 <spevack> (4) How things operate for Fedora Ambassadors in your particular region of the world.  What do you need to know?  Where do you need to be paying attention to stuff?  What are your resources?
10:05:00 <spevack> (5) Whatever else I feel like :)
10:05:00 <spevack> 
10:05:00 <spevack> Before we get into that -- I'd like to hear from you.  Where are you from, and how long have you been part of Fedora, or a Fedora Ambassador?
10:05:00 <spevack> #topic introductions
10:06:00 <spevack> go ahead :)
10:06:00 <giannisk> may i start?
10:06:00 <biertie> hi, I'm from Belgium, and I have been in the fedora project for about a year now
10:06:00 <spevack> everyone can talk -- no need to wait
10:07:00 <loupgaroublond> 'lo, i'm yaakov m. nemoy, living in the netherlands, been with fedora since spring 2007, i'm an ambassador and rhce / sysadmin
10:07:00 <cmpahar> Hello my name is Christos Bacharakis, i am 22 years old, and i am a part of the fedora community the past one year and a half
10:07:00 <cmpahar> i forgot to say that i come from Greece :)
10:07:00 <derikonto> Hello, I am from France and I'm using fedora since Werewolf (fedora 8), and I'm Ambassador since a few day.
10:07:00 <giannisk> my name is Giannis,I am new ambassador from Greece and I have been using fedora for over 7 months...
10:07:00 <franciscod> hey,I'm Ankur,21, from India, been an ambassador for about a year and a half.
10:07:00 <cunningham> Hi, I'm from Western North Carolina, and am a Fedora user since Fedora 8, and am very new to the greater Fedora community
10:08:00 <cwtucker> Hi, Dallas, Texas area, been a regular user since, redhat 7, then to FC, put it on everyone around, decided to do more with the project, so I am recent ambassador as in two weeks ago
10:08:00 <spevack> threethirty: were you recruited by other Ambassadors at Ohio Linux Fest?
10:08:00 <jensm> Hi, i'm from Germany, using Fedora since F10 and beeing Ambassador since May'09
10:08:00 <threethirty> spevack: nope by spot
10:08:00 <frankiemangoa> hi
10:09:00 <frankiemangoa> have i missed anything in the meeting so far
10:09:00 <brianritchie> from Malaysia. Been lurking around > 1yr w/ Fedora. considering getting more active now that i am clear on my goals, career wise.
10:09:00 <spevack> so we've got folks here from literally all over the world.
10:09:00 <sspreitzer> my name is sascha and and im part of the project since maybe a year or two. im from germany and switzerland. i travel much and dedicated my private life to spreading the word of freedom. im 24, live in a relationship and have like 80 friends. yes, im a community guy.
10:09:00 <franciscod> frankiemangoa: we're introducing ourselves :)
10:09:00 <sspreitzer> i do linux since im 13 years old
10:09:00 <etank> Hi. I'm Eric Lake (etank) from Lexington KY and I have been an ambassador for about 1 month i think :)
10:10:00 <sanju> #lug-jaipur
10:10:00 <etank> been using Fedora for about that long
10:10:00 <frankiemangoa> i am frankiemangoa I am 21...just joined a fw weeks ago...from s.a but now in kenya
10:10:00 <spevack> Ok.  Anyone else?
10:11:00 <slipp3d> my name is Chris and i'm in the USA ... 29 ...
10:11:00 <giannisk> oh,i forgot to mention that I am 15 and a half years old ;)
10:11:00 <spevack> giannisk: wow!  Fedora contributors keep getting younger and younger.
10:11:00 <giannisk> yes! ;)
10:11:00 <cwtucker> LOL@ the Tundra
10:12:00 <spevack> Ok -- now that we're done with introductions, I'll make my next point -- and tatica already sort of hinted at it.
10:12:00 <tatica> o_O
10:12:00 <fugolini> hi
10:12:00 <spevack> The range of people who have showed up for this session is remarkable.  From 15 years old to 150 years old (inode0) -- and from all over the world.
10:12:00 <slipp3d> inode0, I don't know I would bet that us in Montana would be in that frozen tundra comment
10:13:00 <spevack> More than any other part of the Fedora Project, I believe that the Ambassadors group has the largest variety of people.
10:13:00 <spevack> This is part of what makes the Ambassadors project valuable, but it also presents some challenges and that is something we'll talk about later.
10:14:00 <tatica> lol @ inode0 150 years old
10:14:00 <spevack> But now, I want to ask another question -- and I don't need all of you to answer or else we'll have chaos -- but I'd like a few people to answer.  New folks.
10:14:00 <spevack> What do you think the purpose and goals of something like Fedora Ambassadors is?
10:14:00 <sspreitzer> may I?
10:14:00 <cwtucker> Promotion, Awareness. for starters.
10:14:00 <cunningham> To spread the good news that is Fedora ;)
10:14:00 <threethirty> to be an offical cheerleader for Fedora and Free Software
10:14:00 <jensm> To spread Fedora all over the world
10:15:00 <jensm> :)
10:15:00 <spevack> What else?
10:15:00 <frankiemangoa> fedora is there to provid solutions to problems that arise around the world in a clean way and best of all a free way
10:15:00 <tatica> omg... cheerleader
10:15:00 <sspreitzer> spread the word, speak to people, bridge it back to the project
10:15:00 <cmpahar> to show them the other side of operating systems
10:15:00 <ke4qqq> grow the contributor base
10:15:00 <jensm> to recruit new contributors :)
10:15:00 <fugolini> Find new users and contributors, ready to join the wide development of a great community and a great system
10:16:00 <giannisk> Fedora Ambassadors spread fedora and promote free and opensource software
10:16:00 <slipp3d> to be the public face of fedora
10:16:00 <spevack> ok -- those are all great answers -- and I've seen basically all of the words that I was waiting for in these answers.
10:16:00 <franciscod> to help people learn about fedora, its different teams , how the community works..
10:16:00 <tatica> you can't/must not spread what you don't do
10:16:00 <spevack> Let me comment on a few of these answers.
10:17:00 <spevack> Pretty much everything that folks said is correct -- but in my personal opinion, the #1 goal of Fedora Ambassadors is to be a friendly recruitment engine -- Fedora Ambassadors provide tremendous value in their ability to not only create new Fedora users -- but most importantly to *convert Fedora and Linux users* into Fedora *CONTRIBUTORS*
10:17:00 <spevack> It is a fundamental rule of communities that any community which is not growing is doomed to stagnation and failure.
10:18:00 <spevack> Fedora Ambassadors help make sure that the total Fedora contributor pool continues to grow and change.
10:18:00 <spevack> promoting Fedora, spreading the word about Free Software and its value, and showing people the other options in computing are all part of that
10:19:00 <spevack> and being the public face of Fedora at shows and conferences and schools is also part of it.
10:19:00 <spevack> But one of the things that I always come back to is the fact that we need to be looking for people who want to also help contribute back to the community.
10:19:00 <spevack> threethirty is a Fedora Ambassadors because of the folks he met at Ohio Linux Fest -- a show organized by Ambassadors, and that other Fedora folks like spot were also at doing Fedora stuff.
10:20:00 <spevack> The fact that threethirty is in this classroom today is a perfect example of the success of Ambassadors.
10:20:00 <tatica> I have something to add, since my experience as mentor now
10:21:00 <spevack> go ahead
10:21:00 <kital> ambassadors act in- and outside
10:21:00 <kital> eof
10:21:00 <tatica> ambassadors must have personal goals just next to make people use fedora and get more ambassadors. Sometimes ambassadors only try to recruit more ambassadors but we also need contributors to every team
10:21:00 <spevack> #topic What is Fedora Ambassadors?
10:22:00 <frankiemangoa> true but I must that sometimes there is a chalenge in holding these events in school.how sure are we that the message we are spreading is the same across the globe.i think the functions of an ambassador can not be ust said in a few words..we need to expound on this especaally to new members.maybe revise the fnctions in a good way
10:22:00 <spevack> Two great points by tatica and kital -- and two points that we will probably discuss again later, but are worth mentioning again now.
10:22:00 <frankiemangoa> that is apart from what is in the wiki
10:22:00 <tatica> is an ambassador don't know how to contribute in anything, he must/should learn, so he/she can also encourage other people to help fedora and show that to the world
10:22:00 <ke4qqq> yes - perhaps to grow on that - it's also liaison between fp.o and other projects, and while not necessarily directly, but serendipitously growing the entire FLOSS ecosystem. For instance, we help zikula, and we both benefit.
10:22:00 <spevack> (1) In many cases, Ambassadors are able to serve as the interaction between different parts of Fedora.
10:23:00 <tatica> there is always a little time to do something more besides make an event or attend to one
10:23:00 <tatica> eof
10:23:00 <spevack> (2) Ambassadors need to be thinking about recruiting folks who can participate in ANY part of Fedora, not just other Ambassadors.  Or else it's just a big pyramid scheme :)
10:23:00 <etank> ke4qqq: fp.o?
10:23:00 <jensm> etank, fedoraproject.org
10:23:00 <etank> thanks jensm
10:24:00 <jensm> ;)
10:24:00 <spevack> #topic Interactions between Ambassadors and the rest of Fedora
10:24:00 <spevack> I'd like to talk a little bit about this, and just share a few of my personal experiences
10:24:00 <spevack> Since it was mentioned by kital, it's worth spending some time here.
10:24:00 <alukin> .fas alukin
10:24:00 <zodbot> alukin: alukin 'Oleksiy Lukin' <lukin@stu.cn.ua>
10:25:00 <spevack> Whenever I go to a Fedora event in my Ambassador role and talk to users or answer questions, here is what happens EVERY SINGLE TIME
10:25:00 <spevack> * About 50% of the time, I know the answer to the question and I can show someone a link or send them away 100% happy RIGHT THEN.
20:02:22 * About 50% of the time, I know the answer to the question and I can show someone a link or send them away 100% happy RIGHT THEN.
10:26:00 <spevack> * About 25% of the time, I have to write their question down, get their email address, and then send them the answer after I can find it myself.
20:02:22 * About 25% of the time, I have to write their question down, get their email address, and then send them the answer after I can find it myself.
10:26:00 <alukin> Hi everybady! Today is eastern X-mas, so... Merry X-mas and Happy New Year!
10:26:00 <spevack> * About 25% of the time, I have ZERO IDEA what the answer is, and I know that I'm going to need to talk to someone in a different part of Fedora in order to find out.
20:02:22 * About 25% of the time, I have ZERO IDEA what the answer is, and I know that I'm going to need to talk to someone in a different part of Fedora in order to find out.
10:26:00 <spevack> This last part is particularly important for Ambassadors, for two reasons:
10:26:00 <spevack> Reason #1 -- It is OK to say "I don't know"
10:27:00 <spevack> No one expects a Fedora Ambassador to be an expert about everything, all the time.
10:27:00 <spevack> Reason #2 -- Fedora Ambassadors, as part of their job, need to *pay attention* to what is happening in different parts of the Fedora Project.
10:27:00 <spevack> This way, you can always have a pretty general understanding of what is going on -- you can talk about the current release, you can talk about features that are in the next release, etc.
10:28:00 <spevack> It's good to get to know other Fedora contributors in your region.  If I'm at an event in Germany, for example, and someone has questions about packaging, I can point that person at Christoph Wickert and feel 100% confident that they will get the help they need.
10:28:00 <spevack> 
10:29:00 <tatica> (sidenote: we can't do everything, but we have a team that can)
10:29:00 <spevack> Some Fedora Ambassadors are also very active in other parts of the project -- they are packagers, they are designers, they write documentation, etc.
10:30:00 <alukin> IMHO  it is importtant for ambassadors to be a some kind of bridge between users and developers?
10:30:00 <biertie> spevack: +1
10:30:00 <spevack> 
10:30:00 <biertie> it's important to know the people in the project, and in the region, so you can direct people to other people that are more experts on that theme
10:31:00 <biertie> you have to learn to act as a team when you're at an event
10:31:00 <ke4qqq> +1 - at a minimum at least subscribe to fedora-advisory-bard mailing list - and try and get involved in at least one other area of fedora
10:31:00 <franciscod> and its important to ask questions, as many as you can.
10:31:00 <ke4qqq> s/bard/board/
10:31:00 <biertie> true, I know I still ask a lot of stupid questions :-)
10:31:00 <franciscod> a lot of folks dont ask questions because they're sort of scared of getting *flamed*
10:32:00 <slipp3d> franciscod, that was one of the hardest things for me to get over
10:32:00 <tatica> maybe the best thing an ambassador can do is to be a bridge between developers/designers/packagers and new contributors
10:32:00 <sspreitzer> i think you need to have a certain subset of social skills as an ambassador
10:32:00 <franciscod> slipp3d: :D
10:32:00 <franciscod> sspreitzer: +1
10:32:00 <slipp3d> and some thick skin ...
10:33:00 <sspreitzer> slipp3d, +1
10:33:00 <spevack> slipp3d: thick skin is required in all open source projects :)
10:33:00 <cwtucker> LOL@inode0
10:33:00 <spevack> heh
10:33:00 <spevack> #topic What should you be paying attention to within Fedora?
10:34:00 <spevack> Let's move on to this topic -- which will probably be a little bit shorter, but is worth mentioning.  I'd like to involve some of our long-time Ambassadors in this topic as well.
10:34:00 <alukin> My expirience shows that people need to know some person near them to ask questions and get answers so task of Ambassador to be the right person who can find answers
10:34:00 <spevack> What are the things that you folks pay attention to, in order to keep up to speed with what's happening in Fedora, without it taking up your entire life
10:35:00 <ke4qqq> irc, and mailing lists - specifically #fedora-meeting and #fedora-ambassadors (though there are lots of other valuable chans) and.....
10:35:00 <ke4qqq> fedora-advisory-board and fedora-devel mailing lists are a nice place to start
10:35:00 <franciscod> IRC, mailing lists, the planet, FWN
10:35:00 <ke4qqq> +1 for the planet and FWN
10:35:00 <spevack> #link http://planet.fedoraproject.org/
10:35:00 <biertie> the planet: every morning || the mailing lists || talk to other people on irc || the wiki about specific things
10:36:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FWN
10:36:00 <spevack> FWN == Fedora Weekly News
10:36:00 <franciscod> and importantly , attending meets whenever possible, whether on the IRC or physically if time permits
10:36:00 <spevack> #link http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-advisory-board
10:36:00 <spevack> #link http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-ambassadors-list
10:37:00 <spevack> kital, tatica: anything you want to add?
10:37:00 <kital> yes
10:37:00 <franciscod> #link https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-india  ;)
10:37:00 <tatica> yes
10:37:00 <spevack> go ahead :)
10:37:00 <alukin> I'd like to point to sites like http://fedorasolved.org - it is very important  to quicky find solution with quicky moving distro like Fedora
10:37:00 <kital> knowing the infrastructure that we use for communication and colaboration is imperative
10:37:00 <franciscod> alukin: +1
10:37:00 <ke4qqq> alukin: some of that is 'forbidden content'
10:38:00 <slipp3d> +1 for fedorasolved.org
10:38:00 <tatica> my personal experience is a little hard in this way. A lot of people come to me asking me a lot of stuff that most of the time I dont have a clue
10:38:00 <loupgaroublond> i would add that following the docs and marketing lists are good too, keep up with drafts of release notes and publicly facing material
10:38:00 <tatica> a lot of new fedorians just need someone to hold their hands and help them to work
10:38:00 <loupgaroublond> if you can see where the buzz is going to be, you know what to research so you can talk more about it
10:38:00 <alukin> The point is: not all things can be officially discussed on Fedora site, I mean proprietary drivers and so on...
10:38:00 <franciscod> ke4qqq: forbidden? please elaborate a little?
10:38:00 <tatica> a good advice is to "let them think they are doing the things by their own" we are not gods to make everything for them
10:38:00 <tatica> we are only a support
10:39:00 <biertie> tatica: +1
10:39:00 <kital> so in my opinion every Ambassador should have something that could explain how we colaborate
10:39:00 <franciscod> +1 tatica
10:39:00 <tatica> so we need to pay attention to this:
10:39:00 <tatica> if we want great and active ambassadors, don't let them be lazy doing their task...
10:39:00 <derikonto> +1 kital
10:39:00 <kital> in my case it is a bit out of date ;) but maybe a good start for creating his own
10:39:00 <kital> http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/fedora_comm.pdf
10:39:00 <tatica> we all have compromises, and the other ambassadors has to, help them to help you but don't do their work
10:40:00 <spevack> franciscod: come back to that question later on and we'll answer it -- i don't want to get side-tracked
10:40:00 <spevack> kital: would you tell folks about what that pdf you just linked to is?
10:40:00 <spevack> #link http://jsimon.fedorapeople.org/fedora_comm.pdf
10:40:00 <franciscod> spevack: aye
10:40:00 <alukin> ke4qqq, it id "forbidden" only in USA but Ok in EU
10:40:00 <ke4qqq> alukin: yes - and as an ambassador you represent the distribution - which can't include them - it's important to know why we can't.
10:40:00 <kital> spevack: something that could explain how we colaborate
10:40:00 <franciscod> i found this quite a long time back
10:40:00 <franciscod> #link http://ankursinha.fedorapeople.org/misc/community.odp
10:40:00 <ke4qqq> alukin: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems
10:40:00 <franciscod> probably very outdated
10:41:00 <ke4qqq> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Conduct <-- first point is important - you are Fedora
10:41:00 <frankiemangoa> i agree some of these are realy outdated...have t be revised asap
10:41:00 <kital> spevack: but also a bit outdated and made for my purpose (german ...)
10:41:00 <alukin> ke4qqq, sure I know that and I know why but the world is a bit bigger then USA :)
10:41:00 <franciscod> ke4qqq: understood, we use fedorasolved as a quick help at #fedora
10:41:00 <spevack> franciscod: that's an old presentation that I wrote, about 2 years ago
10:41:00 <franciscod> spevack: i found it somewhere, still show it around to folks :D
10:41:00 <spevack> franciscod: a lot of its ideas still apply, but the examples are a bit old.
10:42:00 <spevack> franciscod: i'm glad it's been useful
10:42:00 <spevack> Ok, to sum up this section a little bit and get us back on track:
10:42:00 <spevack> There are obviously a TON of resources for Fedora Ambassadors
10:42:00 <spevack> And we've linked to a lot of them here.
10:42:00 <spevack> I want to take a moment though, to talk about the Fedora Marketing team a little bit.
10:43:00 <spevack> Because there is a good overlap between Fedora Marketing and Fedora Ambassadors
10:43:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing
10:43:00 <spevack> #link http://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/fedora-marketing-list
10:43:00 <spevack> Earlier on in this session, someone made the excellent point that it is difficul to have a consistent message across different regions and languages worldwide.
10:43:00 <spevack> This is 100% true.
10:44:00 <spevack> Therefore, one of the things that we try to do in Fedora is to provide a *starting point* for people to have the right ideas and messages that we want to spread, and then allow folks to build their own talks around this core set of ideas.
10:44:00 <spevack> Where do these core ideas come from?  The Fedora Marketing team.
10:44:00 <spevack> There are two links that I would like people to see:
10:45:00 <spevack> actually, three links :)
10:45:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundations
10:45:00 <spevack> This is the four foundations of the Fedora Project.  For the last year or so, whenever I have given the "general what is Fedora about/introduction to Fedora" talk at an event, I have always made a point of talking about the four foundations.
10:46:00 <spevack> These are pretty general
10:46:00 <spevack> But we also have more specific resources for folks.
10:46:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/TalkingPoints
10:46:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_12_Talking_Points
10:46:00 <spevack> The last link, in particular, I'd like to mention.
10:47:00 <spevack> Every single release, the Fedora Marketing Team produces a list of "talking points" about the new release.
10:47:00 <spevack> These are INCREDIBLY VALUABLE.
10:47:00 <spevack> Back when I was the Fedora Project Leader -- and I know that Paul Frields is the same way as the current Fedora Project Leader -- a list like this helps a ton when we are doing interviews with the press about the new release.
10:47:00 <spevack> And it can help every single Fedora Ambassador
10:48:00 <spevack> to talk about some of the most interesting stuff in the release.
10:48:00 <etank> do you recommend that ambassadors run rawhide at some point before the new releases to have a better idea of what to come? if so how soon before the actual release is recommended.
10:48:00 <spevack> You can see that we try to break it down into three categories -- things that everyone will like, things that sysadmins will like, and things that developers will like.
10:48:00 <spevack> Because those tend to be our three main user buckets.
10:48:00 <spevack> etank: good question.  What do people think?
10:49:00 <spevack> first of all -- can someone please tell everyone what Rawhide is? :)
10:49:00 <cwtucker> development
10:49:00 <threethir> do it in Virtual Box make life easy on yourself etank
10:49:00 <frankiemangoa> you have to keep updated...always..but closer to relaease....say a month or so
10:49:00 <etank> threethirty: that was my thought too
10:49:00 <ke4qqq> etank: I generally start at the alpha - it's also helpful to help during test days with QA - it's genreally low hanging fruit - I run LiveCDs til Beta -and install at beta
10:49:00 <franciscod> rawhide is the latest stuff that the package maintainers push to the public
10:50:00 <biertie> I think it's a matter of opinion, I don't run rawhide before the beta release, but if you run rawhide you have responsibilities like: reporting bugs, and having to deal with problem sometimes
10:50:00 <franciscod> note, that latest does *not* imply stable
10:50:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Rawhide
10:50:00 <biertie> and problem can be annoying when you are running rawhide on a computer you don't want to break:P
10:50:00 <cwtucker> It is 'fairly' stable on my macbook :)
10:50:00 <spevack> that's why running it in a virtual instance can be so useful, biertie
10:50:00 <biertie> hehe, touché
10:51:00 <franciscod> cwtucker: you've been lucky then :P rawhide is known to be "explosive"
10:51:00 <cwtucker> franciscod, can be..
10:51:00 <spevack> etank: I think it's useful to have some knowledge of what is going on in Rawhide.
10:51:00 <biertie> anyway, I don't think you HAVE to do it, but it can help you when you have to talk about a new release: you know what's in it
10:51:00 <spevack> In the early part of a release cycle, maybe that is just knowing what the upcoming features are.
10:52:00 <spevack> As we get closer to the alpha and beta -- I think that it's a good idea to actually have Rawhide running *somewhere*.
10:52:00 <spevack> Especially at an event -- I think it's nice to be able to show someone "here is the current version of Fedora" and "here is the development version that will become the next release."
10:52:00 <spevack> it gives an Ambassador a chance to explain a bit about how Fedora's releases work, etc.
10:53:00 <derikonto> +1 spevack
10:53:00 <spevack> 
10:53:00 <etank> that was my thought too spevack
10:53:00 <spevack> One of the things that I always try to do, whenever I have a conversation about Fedora with someone new -- is to ask a lot of questions, and try to figure out what that person cares the most about.
10:53:00 <spevack> Then I will talk to that person about whatever part of the Fedora Project is also working on the same thing.
10:54:00 <spevack> And try to help the person to see that there are a bunch of people RIGHT NOW working as a team on the sorts of things that this person cares about, and it's easy to go and help them.
10:54:00 <spevack> 
10:54:00 <spevack> 
10:54:00 <spevack> Ok -- any other questions or comments right now?
10:54:00 <frankiemangoa> yeah
10:55:00 <derikonto> can I suggest a link about marketing ?
10:55:00 <spevack> go for it
10:55:00 <derikonto> #link http://blog.melchua.com/2009/12/24/whats-marketing-doing-for-f13-anyway-a-show-with-dancing-penguins/
10:55:00 <frankiemangoa> I think  it is good for us then to advice pple to run that rawhide on virtual machine...
10:55:00 <spevack> fugolini: see you soon!
10:56:00 <spevack> 
10:56:00 <spevack> #topic Regional structure of Fedora Ambassadors
10:56:00 <spevack> We have about 30 minutes left
10:57:00 <spevack> And I think it's time to talk for a bit about how a project as large and spread out as Fedora Ambassadors actually works.
10:57:00 <spevack> And the honest answer is that there is a little bit of chaos -- but we try to make sure that the chaos is organized, and regional :)
10:58:00 <spevack> The fedora-ambassadors-list is the global list for all Ambassadors
10:58:00 <spevack> But we have regional meetings, where the Ambassadors from the same general area are able to discuss their local issues, organize their activities, and pool their resources.
10:58:00 <spevack> ke4qqq, inode0, kital, tatica -- you guys can jump in with any comments that you have
10:59:00 <spevack> #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Meetings
10:59:00 <MohammedSafwat> Can I jump in with anything I have?
10:59:00 <spevack> sure
11:00:00 <MohammedSafwat> OK, just go on, I do not want to interrupt :)
11:00:00 <spevack> The key point I want to make is that it is *ESSENTIAL* that you attend the meeting for your region, because that is where almost all of the decisions are made.
11:01:00 <spevack> The Fedora Ambassadors Steering Committee is sort of the oversight group of Ambassadors -- but they don't tell folks what events to go to, or how to spend their budget.  Mostly we try to give complete decision making to the regions -- and most of that work is done in the local meetings.
11:01:00 <spevack> Anyone -- feel free to jump in with what you want to say.
11:01:00 <spevack> MohammedSafwat: go ahead
11:02:00 <franciscod> we're trying to hold fortnightly meets at #fedora-india, been on schedule so far. the attendance has been steadily increasing :)
11:03:00 <spevack> franciscod: where are those meetings being advertised?
11:03:00 <tatica> LATAM... latam... Latam is starting to grow up. Is not a secret to anyone that Brasil is the point of attention at this moment and maybe since ever. Our goal is to be more involved into everything
11:03:00 <franciscod> spevack: generally the fedora-india mailing list
11:03:00 <franciscod> and blog posts
11:03:00 <spevack> franciscod: and if someone is a New Ambassador -- and only on fedora-ambassadors-list, how will then find out that the fedora-india list even exists? :)
11:03:00 <tatica> Latam is working hard, but some people are pushing too hard the local efforts that some of us are putting down... so
11:03:00 <biertie> spevack: I can add to that: next to the emea meeting, some groups hold extra meetings too (like we have a belux meeting)
11:04:00 <inode0> mentoring process I hope
11:04:00 <tatica> little patience and goals are showing up... just like the examples of gomix with rpmdev. yn1v with freemedia and marketing
11:04:00 <tatica> myself having artwork in the official release
11:04:00 <franciscod> spevack: the new method involves mentorship, generally people of the same region, they make sure their "students" are around :)
11:04:00 <etank> how do the mentors work with the new ambassadors?
11:04:00 <spevack> franciscod: cool :)
11:04:00 <franciscod> but i will post to the ambassadors list in the future, to be on the safer side
11:04:00 <spevack> kital: do you want to talk a little bit about Mentoring?
11:04:00 <etank> what is the expectation on both sides
11:04:00 <tatica> I don't know what else to add since I work directly with contributors and ambassadors and not with organize items of latam
11:05:00 <tatica> yn1v, would you like to add something else from your point of view ?
11:05:00 <spevack> Any of our current Ambassadors want to talk about what Mentoring is like within the Ambassadors Project?
11:06:00 <frankiemangoa> i think he proces is ok.
11:06:00 <frankiemangoa> had a good one by nayyar ahmed
11:06:00 <cmpahar> when you are an Ambassador you have a mentor. One lucky guy who is always there to help you and show the direction
11:06:00 <spevack> how do you get your mentor?
11:06:00 <biertie> for me a mentor is somebody that cares about you, but off course, you have to gaint that respect
11:07:00 <ke4qqq> pick it from a list on the wiki from your region
11:07:00 <kital> spevack was away
11:07:00 <derikonto> Mentoring is a good way to become a good ambassador
11:07:00 <yn1v> I think one of the new abassadors duties is to read a lot on the fedora wiki. Then you bump into many usefull things...
11:07:00 <threethirty> spevack: i chose ke4qqq becuase we have a mutual buddy
11:07:00 <biertie> I know I had a good mentor:: I asked him stuff, he helped me when I had troubles
11:07:00 <kital> find the mentoring process here
11:07:00 <kital> https://fedorahosted.org/fama/wiki/mentoring
11:07:00 <biertie> he sugested things,
11:07:00 <yn1v> like mailing list, but also features, work in progress
11:07:00 <spevack> #link https://fedorahosted.org/fama/wiki/mentoring
11:07:00 <biertie> but it's not a guy had holds your hand off course
11:07:00 <inode0> spevack: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors/Join <- listed where when up
11:08:00 <spevack> thanks for coming, franciscod
11:08:00 <spevack> #topic What else?
11:08:00 <tatica> franciscod, :)
11:09:00 <tatica> !
11:09:00 <kital> mentoring helped to gave new candidates a person to start with direct communication if no relationship to the project exists
11:09:00 <spevack> Ok -- for the folks who are long-time ambassadors -- what have I missed?  What else should we talk to the new ambassadors about?
11:09:00 <spevack> inode0: go ahead!
11:09:00 <sspreitzer> !
11:09:00 <sspreitzer> reimbursements
11:09:00 <inode0> from the perspective of Fedora the mentoring process has a bit different purpose, easily stated I think
11:10:00 <sspreitzer> explain this topic plz to the crowd
11:10:00 <inode0> make sure we get good representatives of the Fedora Project
11:10:00 <tatica> would be a good idea o get *ideas* of what are we doing ok and what should we change from new ambassadors? a feedback of what they see as new members that sometimes we forget for having too much responsibilities?
11:10:00 <inode0> I don't want to necessary make a life long commitment to each person I mentor
11:11:00 <inode0> But I do make a commitment to Fedora to try my best to help that person be prepared to represent us
11:11:00 <tatica> a mentor should just follow the new ambassador work until he can do it alone
11:11:00 <biertie> inode0: lolz, well, it should be a pro-active roll, I think
11:11:00 <tatica> mentor is a support
11:12:00 <kital> sspreitzer: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Reimbursements
11:12:00 <kital> ticket is imperative https://fedorahosted.org/famsco/
11:12:00 <ke4qqq> spevack: talk about getting $stuff
11:13:00 <spevack> ke4qqq: you want to do it? :)
11:13:00 <sspreitzer> kital, where are the limits? will I be payed if I book a cheap airfare and hotel room ?
11:13:00 <etank> kital: the first link Reimbursements seems to not be working
11:13:00 <spevack> #topic Money!
11:13:00 <spevack> A few words about budget
11:14:00 <kital> sspreitzer: bring your desire to famsco (ticket) and famsco will see if the benefit for fedora is good to help you out with something and if we have the money we will help you
11:14:00 <ke4qqq> tatica: why not?
11:14:00 <kital> this is different from case to case - depends on the expected benefit
11:14:00 <kital> for fedora
11:14:00 <spevack> I am part of Red Hat's Community Architecture team -- and one of the things that my team has budget for is regional community building around the world.
11:14:00 <kital> or for the contributor
11:14:00 <spevack> A lot of this money is spent within the Fedora Ambassadors project.
11:14:00 <tatica> not now, not here
11:14:00 <kital> it is also good to sponsor a trip if this helps people to evolve personaly
11:15:00 <spevack> Mostly we spend it to help contributors either get to events, to have the resources they need to set up an event, etc.
11:15:00 <sspreitzer> kital, it is just an example. if i visit fosdem or cebit or openexpo? do i get a return or do I have to rethink 5 times whether I should play with money?
11:16:00 <spevack> We often subsidize travel for community members, and we make lots of swag to give away at Fedora events -- stickers, shirts, etc.
11:16:00 <tatica> question:
11:16:00 <tatica> for latam... every budget request must pass for Rodrigo and his boss?
11:16:00 <kital> you definitely should be aware that we are not a trave funding agency ;)
11:16:00 <spevack> sspreitzer: for big events, we often will have a "travel sponsorship" budget and people who need either a partial or a full sponsorship can get it.
11:17:00 <sspreitzer> wow ok
11:17:00 <spevack> but kital is right -- it is IMPOSSIBLE for us to pay the travel costs of everyone who wants to attend FOSDEM, for example
11:17:00 <spevack> we'd have no money left.
11:17:00 <spevack> sspreitzer: there is no 100% firm rule -- simply because we need to have flexibility.
11:17:00 <kital> so fosdem is a major event and also a meet up and it make sence to get as much people together as we can to meet and plan for 2010
11:17:00 <kital> but it would not make sence to make this for every event
11:17:00 <biertie> kital: +1
11:17:00 <spevack> but my personal belief is that Ambassadors are already giving us lots of their time and effort -- and I don't want them to have to spend lots of their own money also.  We have a budget, and we should use it to help grow the project.
11:18:00 <ke4qqq> in FAMNA we try and pay for speakers who are traveling, if they request it, but not every person who attends an event on our behalf - but there are exceptions.
11:18:00 <sspreitzer> spevack, im not satisfied by this answer. there should be a commitment.
11:18:00 <tatica> :X
11:18:00 <kital> so as told before - it depends from case to case and it is imperative to communicate and point out why it is important for you to do things and also imperative if you get sponsoring to make proper eventreports and tell us what achievements we had
11:18:00 <spevack> sspreitzer: ok -- we'll talk about it more outside of this classroom session, and I'll try to make some more firm guidelines.
11:19:00 <sspreitzer> basically its up to my risk, and its RHs revenue. sry, this is no good world.
11:19:00 <ke4qqq> sspreitzer: so submit your proposal to the regional leaders in EMEA - see if they want to fund you.
11:19:00 <spevack> tatica: we can talk about regional budget issues outside of this classroom session also -- perfect for a famsco meeting :)
11:19:00 <spevack> sspreitzer: typically someone will come to their regional meeting and say "hey, I have a budget request for $X and here's what we're going to do with it" and then we try to make it happen.
11:20:00 <spevack> And if that budget request includes travel, so be it.
11:20:00 <spevack> We would never make somene spend money first, and then *maybe* get a reimbursement or maybe not.
11:20:00 <spevack> zodbot seems to be dead, along with the Fedora wiki :)
11:20:00 <biertie> problems witht he load balancer :(
11:21:00 <sspreitzer> ok, spevack we will have to qry this later
11:21:00 <cwtucker> wiki is running rawhide today :)
11:21:00 <sspreitzer> i need to board my plane now, see you guys
11:21:00 <threethirty> later on sspreitzer
11:21:00 <sspreitzer> ;>
11:21:00 <spevack> ok -- we've got about 10 minutes left in this classroom.  Any other questions or comments or anything people want to say?
11:21:00 <ke4qqq> spevack: +1 I am convinced some of the date back to 2006
11:21:00 <frankiemangoa> thanks guys...am also out..will review the logs later..learnt a lot.
11:21:00 <spevack> ke4qqq: that's bad.
11:22:00 <ke4qqq> yep
11:22:00 <spevack> Ok -- well in conclusion, I want to say Welcome again to all of our new Ambassadors
11:22:00 <spevack> The best thing you guys can do is ask lots of questions, and don't be afraid to make mistakes.
11:22:00 <spevack> Nothing bad will happen!
11:23:00 <tatica> I can bite you all
11:23:00 <tatica> :D
11:23:00 <threethirty> thanks for this spevack it was super helpful
11:23:00 <spevack> And remember -- your mission is to help make people excited about Fedora.
11:23:00 <biertie> no you can't tatica
11:23:00 <tatica> lol
11:23:00 <etank> thanks for the insight spevack. fantastic class
11:23:00 <spevack> It's fun, and rewarding.  You are the folks helping to grow our community every day.
11:23:00 <tatica> have fun being ambassadors, and make everyone else feel the same
11:23:00 <slipp3d> thanks spevack ... i picked up a few things that i didn't know
11:23:00 <spevack> We'll do it again in a month or two, I'm sure.
11:23:00 <spevack> Have a good day or night, everyone, depending on where you are in the world!
11:24:00 <spevack> #endmeeting