18:10:03 <jsmith> #startmeeting Fedora Board IRC Meeting: Protocol listed at https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Board_public_IRC_meetings 18:10:04 <zodbot> Meeting started Fri Sep 10 18:10:03 2010 UTC. The chair is jsmith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:10:04 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic. 18:10:29 <jsmith> #chair smooge mdomsch caillon ctyler jds2001 spot 18:10:29 <zodbot> Current chairs: caillon ctyler jds2001 jsmith mdomsch smooge spot 18:10:38 <jsmith> #meetingname Fedora Board 18:10:38 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_board' 18:10:59 <jsmith> #topic Open Questions and Answers from the Community 18:11:11 <smooge> I guess we need to do the Roll call again just for logs sake 18:11:22 <smooge> mdomsch 18:11:22 <smooge> * caillon for a while 18:11:22 <smooge> * jsmith is here 18:11:22 <smooge> * mbroyles is here 18:11:22 <smooge> * ctyler here 18:11:28 <smooge> smooge is here 18:11:43 <smooge> ok done my part :) 18:11:48 <jsmith> #info mizmo and jds2001 can't make it today 18:11:56 <jsmith> OK... now on to questions! 18:12:05 <Camberwell> ? 18:12:16 <jsmith> => Camberwell 18:12:33 <Camberwell> sorry if this isn't the place to ak, but will f13 see the new kde 4.5 18:13:17 <smooge> not the place to ask in my opinion. that is more of a FESCO question 18:13:29 <jsmith> You can certainly ask, but that's really a FESCo decision 18:13:36 <Camberwell> ok sorry 18:13:46 <jsmith> That being said, the Board (before I got here) created a vision statement for updates 18:13:55 <ctyler> the package maintainers would be the best ones to talk to, or the kde sig 18:13:55 <caillon> also, the KDE sig probably can answer such questions too. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SIGs/KDE 18:14:25 <jsmith> To make a long story short, we set the vision for the updates, and FESCo then creates the implementation based on that vision 18:15:04 <SMParrish_mobile> FYI. Kde 4.5 is in testing ATM. Still a few issues to work out 18:16:07 <Camberwell> ok thanks your replies anyway 18:16:17 <jsmith> No problem 18:16:17 <inode0> ? 18:16:25 <jsmith> => inode0 18:16:43 <inode0> A few weeks back spot proposed something regarding appointments/board approval - anything more come of that? 18:17:01 <jsmith> No, not really 18:17:14 <jsmith> As the FPL, I decided to take a step back for a bit, and try to do a few things first 18:17:21 * jsmith wanted to make sure we did things in the proper order 18:17:46 <jsmith> First of all, I want to make sure that the Board is working well, and that I have a good working relationship with each member of the Board 18:18:15 <jsmith> After that, I want to make sure that I have a chance to meet with the steering committees (FESCo, FAMSCo, etc.) 18:18:34 <jsmith> Once that's done, I think it's proper to discuss the governance structure 18:19:03 <inode0> Do you expect those things to be done this year? 18:19:10 <jsmith> When we do that though, I'd like clear proposals on 1) What problem are we attempting to solve, 2) Have other attempts been made to solve said problem, 3) How does this proposal solve the problem 18:19:57 <jsmith> I would hope that the Board is working well and I've met with the steering committees this year, obviously. As for the other changes, I can't venture a guess. 18:20:16 <jsmith> It'll depend on the proposed changes. 18:20:48 <inode0> No, I was asking about whether the discussion of those other changes might be able to begin by the end of the year really. 18:21:08 <jsmith> Sure, the discussion will obviously happen before the end of the year 18:21:10 <inode0> That is good, thanks for the update. EOF 18:21:25 <brunowolff> ? 18:21:47 <jsmith> => brunowolff 18:21:59 <brunowolff> jsmith, do you plan on using your blog more going forward? 18:22:29 <brunowolff> Paul used to post a lot of Fedora stuff and it seems you are using it sparingly? 18:22:55 <brunowolff> It seems that this is a good soap box for the FPL to be using for advocacy. EOF 18:23:10 <jsmith> brunowolff: Yes, I do. As I explained in one of my (infrequent?) blog posts, I'm still in "listen to lots of people" mode. I'll certainly blog more once I have to say. 18:23:37 <jsmith> brunowolff: The way I like to describe is like the CEO of a company... you wouldn't want a new CEO to walk in the first day and start telling everyone what to do, or what they're doing wrong. 18:24:08 <jsmith> brunowolff: But in general, you're right -- my blog should be a good spot for Fedora advocacy, and I can certainly be more vocal there. 18:24:59 <skvidal> ? 18:25:00 <jsmith> brunowolff: Please feel free to prod me often if I'm not blogging :-) 18:25:04 <jsmith> => skvidal 18:25:46 <skvidal> What can we do to help burnout issues from contributors? I know we've seen a fair number of people just stop being able to keep up with the rate and non-stop fight. jwb as a case in point. 18:26:20 <jsmith> I think there are several things we can do. 18:26:54 <jsmith> It's been my own experience that the primary cause for people to leave a project is that they don't feel like anyone values their input or effort 18:27:24 <jsmith> So my primary reaction is that we need to be better at saying "thank you" 18:27:41 <jsmith> (and that means even if we don't agree with the person's viewpoints) 18:28:26 <jsmith> As a follow-on point, there's obviously a level of negativity and shrill voices in many of our mailing lists 18:28:55 <mdomsch> we did talk about mentorship and how to on-board more participants in our meeting - briefly... 18:29:44 <jsmith> Some people seem to thrive on the conflict in the lists -- I know I certainly don't. 18:29:48 <mdomsch> one problem with burn-out is that some people wind up doing quite a lot, and could progress to mentor others, but it is often faster and easier to simply do the work themselves rather than mentor someone new 18:30:18 <jsmith> mdomsch: That's certainly part of it too -- It takes self-discipline to know when to delegate and/or train someone up, and it's by no means easy 18:30:19 <mdomsch> finding tasks that a new contributor can do, and helping them do it, is time consuming 18:30:33 <ctyler> mdomsch: and for a geek that's not a people person, 2x 18:30:46 <jsmith> ctyler: Very good point 18:31:03 <mdomsch> I have been doing that a lot at work this year, and it is difficult, and can be hard to demonstrate progress 18:31:14 <mbroyles> how about if some people are dedicated 'teachers'? 18:31:29 <ctyler> or mentor-to-mentor 18:31:37 <mdomsch> so come performance review time, I am dorked because I did not get a lot done myself, and I have only a few I can point to as having helped them grow. 18:31:39 <caillon> there may also be value in sending $swag to contributors without making them fly to $fudcon to collect them 18:31:43 <jsmith> mbroyles: It's easy to say that, but in reality it's very hard to get someone to agree to only be a mentor 18:31:52 <ctyler> but I think a lot of the most effective mentoring is casual, not formal, and introducing a mentoring program doesn't mesh with that 18:31:58 <jsmith> caillon: Look for an announcement shortly regarding that :-) 18:32:15 <caillon> jsmith, oh? i will indeed! 18:32:26 <jsmith> One of the things that helps the mentoring process is documentation of standard operating procedures 18:32:54 <jsmith> Having written SOPs helps on-board new contributors more quickly, and obviously helps avoid the "eaten by raptors" problem 18:33:18 <jsmith> But having someone do an "apprenticeship" of sorts of document what you do also helps get the SOPs written 18:33:42 <jsmith> So, to summarize, I really see two efforts we need to make: 18:34:02 <jsmith> 1) Show more appreciation for the people who are doing fantastic work, but get little praise 18:34:48 <jsmith> and 2) Help make sure that we effectively mentor new contributors to help shoulder the burden 18:35:02 <mmcgrath> ! 18:35:13 <jsmith> => mmcgrath 18:35:30 <mmcgrath> just a quick comment. I'm not so sure doing more work (1, 2) is the best way to prevent burnout :) EOF 18:35:55 <smooge> 3) Remind people that "You are doing it wrong" is not the same as saying "Could you try this instead next time." 18:36:45 <jsmith> mmcgrath: Sure, there's a balance there. Like I said, it takes discipline to know when to make the extra effort to help train someone else, and when to just keep doing it yourself. 18:37:19 <jsmith> mmcgrath: As I'm sure you're aware, it's a *hard* thing to mentor someone to the point where they're self-sufficient in a particular set of skills 18:37:38 <brunowolff> ! 18:37:58 <jsmith> mmcgrath: But if Fedora as a community is going to scale, we have to scale the internal processes as well, which either means more people doing the work, or more work for the people in the middle 18:38:02 <jsmith> => brunowolff 18:38:19 <brunowolff> Since this case kind of applies to me I'd like to comment. I am doing work as a temporary fill in because currently 18:38:47 <brunowolff> there isn't anyone else willing to do it. I am not good at recruiting new people, which is a skill needed for the position 18:38:53 <brunowolff> I am filling in. 18:39:28 <brunowolff> Saying "Good job" helps a little, but I am going to stop doing the temporary stuff at some point and go back to working on 18:39:44 <brunowolff> the parts of Fedora I find more fun/interesting to do. 18:40:07 <brunowolff> That will either happen after the F14 or F15 release, I haven't decided yet. 18:40:26 <brunowolff> So what do we do about a situation like that? 18:41:00 <ctyler> brunowolff: we don't have a "Fedora Job Postings" board, but have you tried to publicize the need? Perhaps via planet and/or the lists? 18:41:05 <brunowolff> Someone needs to be recruiting a replacement (actually more like two people)? EOF 18:41:12 <jsmith> I'm assuming you're talking about the Spins work? 18:41:22 <brunowolff> Yes, the Spins SIG. 18:41:42 <brunowolff> I am effectively both the lead and the wrangler and I really don't want to be either. 18:42:04 <mbroyles> it would be nice to have a "board" of some sort...i would like to help, however not sure the best entry point to the project 18:42:26 <caillon> fyi i need to drop off now 18:42:43 <jsmith> In general, SIGs are self-guided. If you're the only one working on it, and nobody else feels strongly enough about the work to step up and help, there's not a lot we can do. 18:43:11 <jsmith> I'd hate to see the Spins SIG die, but at the same time, I know it's a burden on you that you'd rather not have to do by yourself. 18:43:24 <brunowolff> How is that going to affect spins? Are we willing to drop the add ons or review or what? 18:44:00 <brunowolff> It's me and Kevin Fenzi, though Kevin is more busy with Fedora than I am and I don't want to dump it on him. 18:44:13 <jsmith> This is what I often refer to as the STP problem 18:44:16 <brunowolff> There are some spin owners but mostly they just worry about their own spins. 18:44:22 <jsmith> (STP = Same Two People, or Same Ten People) 18:45:09 <smooge> by caillon 18:45:19 <jsmith> Not speaking about the Spins SIG, but about SIGs in general for a moment -- We either have to recruit more volunteers and help them get up to speed, or decide that "That's a great idea, but we don't have the resources to do it now" 18:45:55 <jsmith> If people are interested in a particular SIG and think it's a good idea, they should be willing to help 18:46:29 <jsmith> "scratch the itch yourself, pay someone else to scratch your itch, or convince someone else that it's their itch", as the saying goes 18:46:33 <brunowolff> The trouble with Spins SIG is that right now it's mostly a gatekeeper, not really an interest group. 18:47:36 <jsmith> I'd love to sit down with you and FESCo (and anybody else that might be interested) and discuss the Spins SIG in more detail, and see if we can't form a plan for helping you out 18:47:48 <ctyler> The SIGs behind each spin are more like SIGs than the Spins SIG itself 18:48:05 <brunowolff> I am certainly willing to do that. 18:48:13 <skvidal> ! 18:48:17 <jsmith> That brings up another point I should probably mention... If you're a Fedora contributor and you're feeling burned out -- please speak up before you hit the tipping point 18:48:27 <jsmith> We want to help! 18:48:33 <jsmith> => skvidal 18:48:34 <mdomsch> jsmith: +! 18:49:00 <skvidal> nevermind 18:49:04 <skvidal> EOF 18:49:36 <jsmith> OK... we've got about ten more minutes for questions here, or as always feel free to ask questions asynchronously on the advisory-board list 18:50:48 <smooge> mdomsch, ? 18:51:00 <mdomsch> smooge: typo - keyboard failing today 18:51:08 <smooge> ah ok 18:51:10 <mdomsch> or just my fingers 18:52:51 <smooge> I think one of the issues with burnout is that we have a culture of trying to do as much as we can and usually hit a rock before knowing we have taken too much 18:53:38 <Camberwell> ! 18:53:40 <smooge> we then end up saying "No" (in various forms getting worse and worse) 18:53:58 <jsmith> => Camberwell 18:54:01 <smooge> and not "I don't know how." or "I don't have time." 18:54:03 <smooge> sorry 18:54:11 <smooge> EOF 18:54:33 <jsmith> smooge: No problem... I'm sorry that I assumed you were done :-/ 18:54:40 * jsmith should follow protocol! 18:54:53 <smooge> anyway Camberwell when you are ready 18:54:55 <jsmith> Camberwell: Go ahead :-) 18:54:56 <Camberwell> its a shame that there people in the project who are wanting/needing help and then theres people like me who are just joining and anxious to help 18:55:23 <Camberwell> has anyone thought about a position vacant board? 18:56:03 <jsmith> In some ways... every position is vacant 18:56:15 <jsmith> Every team and SIG and group in Fedora can use extra help 18:56:45 <Camberwell> but then i suppose you need people who are good at one thing rather and ok at lots f things? 18:56:45 <jsmith> And one of the great things about the open source way is that leadership changes happen all the time too 18:56:56 <Camberwell> s/and/than 18:56:57 <jsmith> Not necessarily... 18:57:15 <inode0> ! 18:57:19 <jsmith> Look, we have some of the smartest and most amazing people in the world helping out 18:57:26 <jsmith> Some of them choose to concentrate on one area 18:57:36 <jsmith> Some of them spread out among a lot of different areas 18:57:40 <jsmith> Both approaches are OK 18:58:03 <jsmith> I just wanna make sure that they have the support they need, and the gratitude for what they do 18:58:09 <jsmith> => inode0 18:58:12 <inode0> Camberwell: we have lots of open positions that we don't even know exist. They are created by people like you. 18:58:23 <skvidal> ! 18:58:36 <jsmith> => skvidal 18:58:54 <skvidal> there's an issue of trust - some of the heaviest hit, least flexible, highest-impact positions are ones that require that people who do them be highly trusted 18:59:06 <skvidal> being available to work on new things means something, that's ture 18:59:08 <skvidal> err true 18:59:27 <skvidal> but we cannot let anyone push pkgs or maintain various services. 18:59:29 <skvidal> EOF 18:59:43 <jsmith> Good point, skvidal 19:00:04 <jsmith> In some parts of Fedora, we require formal "approval" or mentorship 19:00:17 <jsmith> Especially in areas of high risk, such as infrastructure and packaging 19:00:37 <jsmith> In other areas (such as documentation), almost anybody can dive in and start helping without a lot of formal process 19:01:14 <Camberwell> ! 19:01:20 <jsmith> There are certainly things I can do as the FPL to help lower some of those barriers to entry, but trust is a big part of dynamic that makes Fedora tick 19:01:24 <jsmith> => Camberwell 19:01:52 <Camberwell> i have applied for the docs group as i am interested in creating some kde documentation.... 19:02:17 <jsmith> Great! 19:02:17 <Camberwell> i'v also joined the triage group because someone said they are crying out for help 19:02:30 <Camberwell> i just need a mentor 19:02:34 <jsmith> (Docs was the first group I signed up for too!) 19:02:47 <mdomsch> apologies, I must leave now 19:02:55 <jsmith> mdomsch: Thanks for your time! 19:03:37 <jsmith> Camberwell: The two best ways to get some mentorship are to ask for it on the mailing list, and then hang out in the IRC channels and show people that you're willing to help. 19:03:47 <jsmith> Camberwell: If you have questions, don't be afraid to ask. 19:03:57 <Camberwell> but then in a burnout context its asking someone to put more time in to help me 19:04:56 <jsmith> It depends on what part of the project you're working on 19:05:12 <jsmith> In many cases, we have people who have the time and energy to help mentor new contributors 19:05:17 <jsmith> In others, it's more difficult 19:05:23 <Camberwell> ok cheers i will ask about the kde sig as to anyone else interested or already working on kde documentation 19:05:40 <Camberwell> can i just start putting drafts up on the wiki? 19:05:41 <jsmith> I'm sure they'd appreciate it :-) 19:05:48 <jsmith> Camberwell: Yes -- it's a wiki :-) 19:05:53 <Camberwell> ok excelent 19:06:09 * inode0 thanks the board for sharing its time with the community today 19:06:09 <jsmith> Ok, we're past the top of the hour 19:06:23 <jsmith> inode0: You're most welcome... thanks for keeping us on our toes :-) 19:06:33 <Camberwell> indeed thankyou all for your time with me too 19:08:12 <jsmith> #endmeeting