20:19:55 <mizmo> #startmeeting
20:19:55 <zodbot> Meeting started Wed Sep 22 20:19:55 2010 UTC.  The chair is mizmo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:19:55 <zodbot> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #halp #info #idea #link #topic.
20:20:05 <mmcgrath> zodbot is go
20:20:05 <jsmith> mizmo: Good call
20:20:11 <mizmo> the last time we chatted on this i think there were three different suggestions
20:20:11 <mether> mizmo, I am just saying that, it is not the impression only for people who are not involved in fedora. people deeply involved in fedora don't know either
20:20:13 <skvidal> jsmith: but I thought the board did that by defining the target audience?
20:20:14 <mizmo> for the focus
20:20:23 <mizmo> mether, yep agreed 100%
20:20:30 <mmcgrath> skvidal: I was part of the board when we did that and I have no idea what to make of it.
20:20:37 <brunowolff> If you remember the meeting name from the last meeting, use #meetingname to set the name to the same thing.
20:20:40 <mether> mmcgrath, "others" as in anyone who views spins as a key focus of fedora
20:20:46 * mizmo doesn't remember :(
20:21:08 <mmcgrath> mether: yeah, I'm certainly not blaiming them.  I was saying we were possibly mistaken for displaying them so prominantly.
20:21:11 <jsmith> skvidal: I (half-jokingly) suggested last time that our vision statement should be to make Fedora be the best it can to serve our target audience... but got quickly shot down :-(
20:21:42 <mizmo> target audience is good but not the whole story, it's like having a story with characters but no plot
20:21:42 <skvidal> jsmith: on what basis?
20:21:54 <mether> mmcgrath, perhaps. would require deciding whether or not, they are important first. not sure who is in charge of that
20:22:08 * mmcgrath isn't sure either
20:22:12 <jsmith> I don't remember the exact wording, but essentially that focus was different that vision
20:23:32 <jsmith> In my keynote in Zurch, I tried to outline what the things are that I think we should focus on
20:23:42 <mmcgrath> with the vision, I think we have to be willing to be wrong.  But I think we need a strong vision.
20:23:53 <mmcgrath> if it blows and we find that out, we can fix it.
20:23:59 <mizmo> i think vision is where you wanna be in 5-10 years. focus is what you're doing to get there in the next year or so
20:24:07 <mizmo> mmcgrath, +1
20:24:48 <mizmo> mether, the reason we did all the work on spins.fpo to make it all nice and usable was to give better access to KDE spin stuff, so we could make the main get.fpo page much simpler
20:25:05 <jsmith> mmcgrath: Agreed.  It should be strong.
20:25:06 <brunowolff> Please set the meeting name to: fedora_20_visioneering
20:25:15 <mizmo> #meetingname fedora_20_visioneering
20:25:15 <zodbot> The meeting name has been set to 'fedora_20_visioneering'
20:26:25 <mizmo> one of the ideas from last meeting
20:26:33 <mizmo> #1 (web?) developer-oriented desktop
20:27:14 <jsmith> Playing devil's advocate for a second, isn't that excluding the vast majority of our existing users?
20:27:26 <mizmo> sigh
20:27:28 <jsmith> How many of our existing users are web developers?
20:27:30 <mether> mizmo, I appreciate your effort but if spins are not important, we need to highlight them less and highlight only the default and KDE perhaps.
20:27:36 <mizmo> saying "focus on x" does NOT mean "focus on y"
20:27:38 <mizmo> we cannot have this conversation
20:27:42 <mizmo> if that keeps getting assumed
20:27:43 <mizmo> seriously
20:27:48 <mmcgrath> jsmith: we have no data on that anyway
20:28:11 <mmcgrath> I'm pretty sure where we are, is such a cluster@#% that it's not worth looking at.  We should probably just focus on where we want to be.
20:28:13 <rbergeron> No, but if we are actively advertising ourselves as the web developer oriented desktop, that makes people automagically assume "this isn't for me."
20:28:33 <mmcgrath> If we look at where we want to be, the possibilities are greater I think.
20:28:40 <mizmo> where was it suggested that we advertise ourselves that way?
20:28:42 <jsmith> Right... I never would have joined Fedora if I thought it was a distribution for web developers
20:28:57 <mizmo> are rollerboard suitcases advertised for flight crew only? no. but that was their focus
20:29:04 <jsmith> If that's what we're focusing on, wouldn't it make sense to advertise for that particular audience?
20:29:19 <mizmo> it really depends
20:29:33 <mmcgrath> besides, web development will be done _in the web_ soon anyway - https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/
20:29:59 <jsmith> Taken to an extreme, people might see that as "Fedora focuses on web developers... others are welcome to eat the crumbs that fall under the table."
20:30:03 <mizmo> i think the impetus behind the web devloper suggestion lat time
20:30:09 <jsmith> I personally think that focus is *way* too narrow
20:30:10 <mizmo> was that right now the web is a bunch of proprietary services
20:30:16 <mizmo> and we'd like to encourage web devs to be FLOSS
20:30:19 <smooge> mizmo, we will keep having this conversation as long as we don't define what we are meaning. especially with computer people who define their world in if ! X then Y
20:30:44 <mizmo> i dont understand why people take it to that extreme
20:30:52 <jsmith> I think "focus on the web developer" is too narrow, and "focus on the average computer user" is too wide
20:30:53 <smooge> mizmo, it is the nature of the work.
20:30:54 <mizmo> when you go to a party
20:30:58 <mizmo> you talk to small groups of people
20:31:06 <mizmo> unless you have a bullhorn its a bit nuts to try to talk to everyone at once
20:31:32 <brunowolff> So it's like politicians, a different promise to every group.
20:31:44 <mizmo> no....?
20:32:25 <jsmith> Besides, "web developers" sounds to me like more of a target audience than a vision for what we want Fedora 20 to be.
20:32:47 <mizmo> the full suggestion was "(web?) developer-oriented desktop"
20:32:55 <mizmo> that came out of the last IRC meeting
20:32:56 <mmcgrath> We need a Fedora Rally for sanity.
20:33:03 <jsmith> That's still a target audience, not a vision
20:33:05 <mizmo> not just "web developers" but "developer-oriented *desktop*"
20:33:08 <mizmo> a desktop isn't an audience
20:33:17 <jsmith> It's not a vision
20:33:18 <mizmo> mmcgrath, lol +1
20:33:26 <smooge> mizmo, many of the people who see it as !X then Y don't go to parties because they can't talk to small groups at a time. Do you know what its like to not be able to shutoff every conversation in a room? Anyway when your world is like that you tend to see things in X || Y versus X in the set of Y unless defined to be that
20:33:51 <rbergeron> mmcgrath: with blue ribbons? and rubber bracelets?
20:34:01 <smooge> so define it as X is in the set of Y and X is the focus and it makes it clearer to some people :)
20:34:10 <smooge> does that help?
20:34:14 <mizmo> no, the vision behind the statement is that web developers by fedora 20 will be using fedora as their desktop, building and deploying FLOSS webservices so we aren't at the mercy of twitter and flickr and facebook
20:34:36 <mizmo> since right now it's looking like by fedora 20 even if we have a kickass desktop it'll just be to open a browser to some proprietary service
20:34:40 <jsmith> mizmo: There, that's a vision.  (I don't necessarily agree with it, but that's a vision)
20:34:52 <mizmo> yeh i said that above too
20:34:56 <mmcgrath> Side note: we're largely talking about the OS here.  The vision should be for the organization.  Our future state or fundamental objective.
20:35:18 <jsmith> mmcgrath: I agree -- but mizmo specifically asked "What do you want Fedora 20 to be."
20:35:18 <mizmo> note that canonical's vision is to beat microsoft on the desktop, which seems rather short-sighted
20:35:39 <mmcgrath> jsmith: not in this meeting though I thought?
20:35:49 <jsmith> mmcgrath: See the meeting name?
20:36:00 <mmcgrath> ah, so it is
20:36:28 <mmcgrath> soooo.  hm.  Are we talking about the Fedora Project's vision?  or Fedora 20?
20:36:42 <skvidal> mizmo: s/short sighted/ unlikely to ever happen/
20:36:42 <brunowolff> I think fedora's vision should be along the lines of enabling people to use "free" technology.
20:37:10 <mmcgrath> brunowolff: but it has to be beyond that I think.  Something being free doesn't make it good :(
20:37:11 <jsmith> I hope that Fedora is always a community of people who bring their ideas/wants to the table, communicate with those who share their ideas, and work together on advance the Four Foundatoins.
20:37:15 * jsmith can't type
20:37:30 <brunowolff> I think that is what the enabling to use needs to imply.
20:37:38 <jsmith> But as far as what Fedora 20 is, we've gotta be a bit more specific than that.
20:37:44 <mizmo> skvidal, well seriously, 'copy the other guy' is kind of dumb. why not 'do something incredibly different and innovative'
20:38:01 <mizmo> jsmith, that was the meeting name from last time, brunowolff asked we name this one the same
20:38:07 <skvidal> mizmo: different and innovative is really hard
20:38:09 <brunowolff> It needs to be good to use by itself and it needs to not be locked out of whatever services people want to use because
20:38:15 <jsmith> Oh... I thought we were continuing the same conversation
20:38:20 <jsmith> If not, my mistake
20:38:22 <brunowolff> of proprietary protocols or the like.
20:39:17 <brunowolff> We can probably adjust the meeting names later with nirik's help. But it would be nice to keep the logs in the same place.
20:39:18 <mmcgrath> brunowolff: the stuff we produce has to not just be free.  But it has to be better then the propriatary stuff.  As it is, OS's like Fedora have largely flatlined.  We quite literally can't give this stuff away.
20:39:50 <brunowolff> That's not even sufficient depending on how you mean better.
20:40:11 <brunowolff> We can be locked out by network effects even if our product is better.
20:40:52 <mmcgrath> mizmo: so are we talking about a fedora project vision statement, or a Fedora 20 goals?
20:41:11 <mizmo> well the vision statement is what we need for the 27th
20:41:28 <mizmo> but to be honest when i brought up fedora 20 goals on the list that was more to help generate ideas for the vision statement
20:41:49 <mizmo> the language around this whole thing seems to be causing a lot of communication issues
20:41:58 <brunowolff> I think they are related, so even if one is the primary goal for this meeting, thinking a bit about the other may be useful.
20:42:08 <mizmo> yeh
20:42:21 <mmcgrath> Here's a bold statement: I think free software is largely over valued by us free people.  I think we should start shifting to free protocols and interoperability.
20:42:25 <mizmo> if you think about yourself using fedora 20, it kind of puts your brain in the context for thinking about vision
20:42:38 <skvidal> mmcgrath: +1, sadly.
20:43:00 <jsmith> mmcgrath: I agree -- but free protocols and interoperability aren't enough -- I think we need free software, open standards, and free data
20:43:15 <mizmo> mmcgrath, i dont like it :(
20:43:19 <mmcgrath> We have the free software, we don't have the interoperability
20:43:21 <brunowolff> I have thought those have been important for a long time. It would have made a much better settlement of the Microsoft case than
20:43:26 <mizmo> mmcgrath, but if we want to make caroline happy that is probably what we have to do
20:43:30 <mmcgrath> mostly because there's not much to interoperate with.
20:43:31 <brunowolff> the proposed dividing of the company up.
20:43:48 <mdomsch> bah, sorry I'm late
20:43:58 <brunowolff> It's also why I dislike software and business method patents moreso than other types of patents.
20:44:01 <mmcgrath> mizmo: I'm not that unlike caroline.  I don't do much of anything in fedora these days.  I didn't realize it until recently but everything I used all day today was to access something hosted somewhere else.
20:44:30 <mmcgrath> mail, irc, firefox, pidgin.
20:45:08 <mmcgrath> I know I'm sort of a hard core sysadmin/engineer type.  But I don't do that stuff at home.
20:45:14 <mmcgrath> with the exception of virtualization.
20:46:14 <mmcgrath> sorry I'm still stuck on the OS.
20:46:22 <mmcgrath> hard to get off of our primary purpose.
20:46:27 <mmcgrath> :)
20:46:51 <mizmo> smooge linked to a suse vision discussion recently
20:46:54 <jsmith> "The Fedora Project works to create a world in which free/open-source software is pervasive, collaboration is the norm, and people are empowered to control their own data and devices." is the vision statement I proposed
20:47:08 <brunowolff> That sounds pretty good.
20:47:14 <jsmith> It's not perfect... I won't even say it's great.
20:47:15 <mmcgrath> s/works to create/creates/
20:47:25 <mizmo> their vision ideas were
20:47:26 <mizmo> *  Home for developers
20:47:26 <mizmo> * Mobile and cloud ready distribution
20:47:27 <mizmo> * Base for derivatives
20:47:28 <skvidal> we create a world?
20:47:32 <mizmo> *  openSUSE – the #1 KDE distribution
20:47:32 <mizmo> * openSUSE – For the productive poweruser
20:47:32 <mizmo> * openSUSE – The Linux distribution platform
20:47:32 <mizmo> * openSUSE – Status Quo, and quantified so
20:47:38 <mmcgrath> skvidal: yes, have you not visited it yet?  there's pancakes :)
20:47:48 <jsmith> But I think it does address some of the things mmcgrath was talking about
20:48:10 <rbergeron> mizmo: they also decided to scrap it and start over, fwiw :)
20:48:29 <mizmo> yeh but i think part of that was the novell marketeers weren't really doing it very openly
20:48:37 <brunowolff> That vision covers the generallities of why I am here, though I have games as a special interest.
20:48:38 <jsmith> Right... and I'm sure not all of you are old enough to remember the Debian debates of a decade ago
20:48:50 <jsmith> I am
20:49:10 <jsmith> And in the end, they pretty much decided that "It's OK to be a general-purpose operating system"
20:49:37 <brunowolff> Really, that's not my outsider's perspective of Debian?
20:50:17 <mizmo> yeh i kind of think debian is the linux os for technical folks who dislike corporate-backed distros
20:50:30 <smooge> jsmith, oh yeah.. I was trying to remind someone about that and then realized they were in elementary school when it happened
20:50:45 <smooge> well maybe high school
20:50:47 <jsmith> mizmo: Right, but that's the reality of it, not their vision
20:50:53 <jsmith> smooge: *sigh*
20:50:59 <mizmo> they definitely operate along those lines though
20:51:05 <smooge> but basically we are doing exactly the same place and same arguments from 12 years ago in Debian
20:51:18 <mizmo> eg many debian contribs like the fact their website isn't colorful and inviting
20:51:26 <mizmo> it accurately reflects their values
20:51:28 <mdomsch> I'm with mmcgrath that a big part of our "we're a great OS" focus should be on the server-side of delivering services.  Infrastructure as a Service, Platform as a Service environments, to build SaaS
20:52:24 <mdomsch> I don't mind the "we're a great Desktop OS" focus too, and i'm not conceding that part, but we definitely need some server focus to balance the desktop focus we've had over the years, but step-wise gains...
20:52:25 <jsmith> mdomsch: I love the idea of IaaS and PaaS, but I'm not sure the Fedora life cycle are idea for those environments
20:52:40 <mizmo> well if we're a developer desktop we could do both
20:52:52 <mizmo> but it might be with the understanding, you develop this on fedora then serve it on rhel
20:52:52 <mdomsch> jsmith: that may be; but the Oracle announcement this week shows that the RHEL lifecycle isn't perfect either
20:52:53 <rdieter> jsmith: if upgrades were easier/painless... maybe.
20:52:55 <mizmo> but im not sure that always works
20:52:58 <skvidal> jsmith: so maybe it is owrht it to lay it all out there
20:53:08 <mdomsch> maybe we could work towards something in between
20:53:19 <jsmith> mdomsch: I wish you could have been in Zurich... I drew a Venn diagram with two overlapping circles... and suggested we focus on the overlap between the desktop and the server
20:53:28 <jsmith> (because there is a *huge* amount of overlap there)
20:53:41 <mdomsch> jsmith: bring it to tempe - sorry I couldn't travel across the pond
20:53:47 <jsmith> mdomsch: Will do
20:53:58 <skvidal> jsmith: we can't be a desktop b/c that eventually hurts rhel - since red hat is our primary funder and resource we don't want to poison the tree. We can't be a server b/c our life cycle is too short and increasing our life cycle also tends to poison the tree if we are a server
20:54:17 <mizmo> being a desktop doesnt hurt rhel
20:54:17 <skvidal> jsmith: so... we need the space between?
20:54:26 <mdomsch> between the candle and the flame
20:54:27 <skvidal> mizmo: it does if you can't build a server out of what's left over
20:54:38 <mmcgrath> mizmo: some of it does.  NetworkManager, for example, had to be engineered out.
20:54:49 <mizmo> oh i see
20:54:51 <rbergeron> Yes, but we can be a developer platform that is the springboard for all of those technologies....
20:54:51 <mizmo> well
20:55:00 <mizmo> still doesnt necessarily, you gotta be smart about it is all :)
20:55:08 <skvidal> umm
20:55:12 <mizmo> i like developer platform/desktop
20:55:15 <mizmo> thats what we used to b
20:55:17 <mdomsch> as much as I love developers - there also needs to be a focus on _deployments_.
20:55:28 <mdomsch> that's where Ubuntu has done a nice job, IMHO.
20:55:30 <mizmo> i used to go to guadec and i think the non novell hackers all used fedora
20:55:51 <mizmo> mdomsch, can you explain the difference?
20:56:01 <brunowolff> I think the reason to support the SaoS stuff is to try to get open protocols established so that network effects aren't used to
20:56:04 <mdomsch> and where all the software management tasks (look at all the puppet/rPath/... type config management tools) are going.  they help manage deployments.
20:56:12 <brunowolff> make our OS mostly useless.
20:56:24 <smooge> jsmith, ok here is my laas Paas dream: we focus ever 3 releases on a LTS that is laas/Paas directed 18 month lifetimes and such. The 2 releases before that are meant to focus on getting to the 18 month goal but can push boundaries.
20:56:26 <mmcgrath> mizmo: developers tend to focus on themselves and their needs.
20:56:29 * mmcgrath knows he does.
20:56:32 <mizmo> mdomsch, deploying a server or deploying a desktop?
20:56:38 <mdomsch> mizmo: yes
20:56:49 <mdomsch> deploying and maintaining {some environment, for your users}
20:56:52 <mizmo> mdomsch, so we make it 'the most-easily managed deployed desktop/server
20:57:02 <mizmo> the forest, not the tree
20:57:10 <rbergeron> well, deployments to whom? if we're saying we want to be #1 in deployments to developers, that's a lot easier than saying we want to be #1 in deployments to $totalavailablemarket
20:57:32 <mdomsch> there you go.  And we don't step on Red Hat's toes, because that isn't really a RH focus
20:57:48 <mizmo> well, easily-managed deployed server does step on rh's toes
20:57:49 <skvidal> mdomsch: oO?
20:57:51 <jsmith> smooge: I'll be honest.  I don't think your employer or mine would be comfortable with every third release having an extended lifecycle (depending, of course, on just how long that might be)
20:57:53 * mizmo used to work on satellite team....
20:58:01 <mizmo> mdomsch, do you know how we get around that?
20:58:20 * rbergeron notes there is a go-no-go meeting in 2 minutes for those going to that
20:58:22 <mdomsch> satellite is a small part of that picture, I think.
20:58:36 <jsmith> rbergeron: Yeah, thanks for the reminder
20:58:43 * jsmith didn't realize the time had flown so quickly
20:58:47 <smooge> jsmith, there have been discussions internally and some people are more comfortable if it shows that the bigger product is more ready .
20:58:47 <mdomsch> an important part, but not all of it
20:59:08 <mizmo> mdomsch, i dont mean satellite literally though i mean there are efforts to make rhel server deployments easily-managed
21:00:32 <mdomsch> mizmo: agreed
21:00:56 <mdomsch> to be continued...
21:01:47 <brunowolff> If we do an LTS, theer needs to be some thought as to what that means with respect to updates.
21:02:20 <brunowolff> The updates policy is being worked on now, but there isn't a lot of guidance on how version N and N-1 are different.
21:04:30 <brunowolff> If we are done now, there needs to be an #endmeeting. I am not sure if the pause is due to meeting is over or just a pause.
21:04:36 <mizmo> im not sure either
21:04:39 * mizmo had gotten a phone call
21:05:16 <abadger1999> So I was wondering a bit more about focus -- if focus is not exclusionary; what does it mean?
21:05:20 * jsmith is in the go/no-go meeting, but will try to lurk
21:05:35 <brunowolff> Focus is a tie breaker if things conflict.
21:05:50 <brunowolff> It may also control resources that are flexible.
21:06:05 <brunowolff> At least some developers will devote part of their time where asked.
21:06:10 <abadger1999> Okay -- so for me, focus would be "be flexible towards your contributors"
21:06:38 <abadger1999> Or -- "enable your contributors to do great things"
21:06:43 <mizmo> yeh focus is the framework with which you use to make decisions / break ties
21:06:59 <mizmo> abadger1999, but i think that's the opposite of a focus
21:07:14 <mizmo> thats basically leaving the project to the wind and whims of whomever decides to show up and stay a while
21:07:18 <mizmo> but if the project itself has a core focus
21:07:28 <abadger1999> Which, for me would be applied like this:  When you have contributors who want to do conflicting things, the first thing you look at is -- can we enable both parties to do what they want to work on?
21:07:31 <mizmo> then it's easier to attract contrbutors cuz they know what we're doing
21:07:49 <mizmo> it's a lot easier to get involved in a project that knows what it is doing than one that does not
21:07:54 <mizmo> the latter is a huge time sink and disappointer
21:08:05 <mizmo> and i believe we appear to the outside world to be the latter
21:08:33 <mizmo> i think that if you have contributors who want to do conflicting things, you got to back up a bit and figure out why they want to do those things. what problems are they trying to solve?
21:08:38 <mizmo> they may even have the same problem & passion in common
21:08:42 <abadger1999> I don't really agree with that -- Fedora does seem to be a huge time sink and a disappointer but not because it's directionless....
21:08:47 <mizmo> you gotta start with the problem, not the implementation/solution
21:08:58 <mizmo> it is directionless
21:09:03 <mizmo> where do we have any direction
21:09:11 <mizmo> except where a contributor stands up and provides it in their little fiefdom?
21:09:22 <mizmo> eg it is hard work to produce designs for fedora
21:09:38 <mizmo> it's exponentially harder work to produce a stand-in vision for fedora to enable said design work because none exists
21:09:41 <mizmo> (does that make sense?)
21:10:08 <abadger1999> i think gregdek expressed it better when he was talking about if you see a need you want to address, just start addressing it and you'll become the leader of that effort and get things done.
21:10:23 <abadger1999> I think we had a lot more of that early on and a lot less of it now.
21:11:04 <abadger1999> expressed it -- expressed swhat I'm feeling -- I started typing before you did; sorry.
21:11:44 <mizmo> that's asking a LOT of people though abadger1999
21:11:53 <mizmo> and it's really limiting the kinds of contributors we can support
21:12:05 <skvidal> abadger1999: I think we have a fair bit of working on thigns and being a leader. The issue is that we end up arguing about doing those things at all
21:12:07 <mizmo> i think what we did in the early days doesn't scale now
21:12:20 <abadger1999> I don't think so.... I mean it's how I got into Fedora, why I loved it, and why I am where I am now in it.
21:12:30 <abadger1999> skvidal: <nod>
21:12:33 <skvidal> mizmo: doesn't scale why? S/N ratio?
21:12:38 <mizmo> skvidal, exactly
21:12:43 <abadger1999> skvidal: And I would ask is there a problem there that we can address?
21:12:44 <skvidal> okay
21:12:50 <mizmo> plus as the project gets bigger it devolves into small fiefdoms that don't talk to each other
21:12:56 <skvidal> abadger1999: sure. Silence everyone who is not contributing :)
21:12:59 <skvidal> abadger1999: with a stick
21:13:05 <mizmo> that come up with different independent directions that directly conflict
21:13:25 <abadger1999> Where instead of saying, "we need less leaders who don't agree with me" we can say "we need to find an outlet for the energies that these leaders have"
21:13:45 <mizmo> there needs to be a core focus though
21:13:58 <skvidal> mizmo: that's where the argument comes from
21:14:07 <mizmo> its not to say folks working outside of that core are unwelcome, just that it is clear to them it isn't the core focus so they dont come in with high expectations that can never be met
21:14:07 <skvidal> when the 'core' says 'this is what we're doing with OUR distro'
21:14:13 <skvidal> and it alienates the periphery
21:14:20 <mizmo> the periphery is already alienated
21:14:23 <skvidal> yes
21:14:26 <skvidal> and they are rebelling
21:14:29 <mizmo> because their expectations have been built up to something we can never, ever support
21:14:37 <mizmo> we need to be more honest, not wishy-washy as we are today
21:14:41 <skvidal> and if that's the case
21:14:49 <skvidal> that they have overly high expectations
21:14:59 <skvidal> then, well, there is only one way down from a pedestal
21:14:59 <mizmo> and i say can never-ever support because we can only do so many things well at once
21:15:26 <mizmo> you can do a lot of things but kind of shittily, or you can do a few things really well
21:15:29 * jsmith still isn't convinced that it's a zero sum game
21:15:40 <abadger1999> I don't agree with that either.
21:15:42 <mizmo> zero sum game?
21:15:50 <mizmo> explain?
21:15:51 <skvidal> mizmo: meaning you have no additional inputs
21:15:53 <brunowolff> I think having published priorities will also help people find consensus when there are conflicts. Otherwise diverse opinions will
21:15:55 <skvidal> you have to work with what is in the systme
21:15:59 <skvidal> if you Add X to project Foo
21:16:05 <skvidal> that means removing X from something else
21:16:06 <mizmo> brunowolff, exactly
21:16:13 <abadger1999> zero sum == there's a set amount of resources and then you have to divide those among the issues/people/desires that you want to solve.
21:16:19 <brunowolff> have equal standing and result in long flame fests with little benefit.
21:16:22 <skvidal> mizmo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-sum
21:16:43 <skvidal> brunowolff: I don't think anyone objects to that
21:16:49 <skvidal> in principle
21:16:49 <mizmo> hum im not really sure where anything ive said reflects 'zero sum game'
21:16:53 <skvidal> but
21:16:59 <mizmo> that's certainly an oversimplification
21:17:00 <skvidal> if that is what happens
21:17:03 <abadger1999> [14:15:26] <mizmo> you can do a lot of things but kind of shittily, or you can do a few things really well
21:17:15 <skvidal> then it has to shut be willing to shut down the dissenters
21:17:17 <mizmo> abadger1999, yes but its way more complex
21:17:20 <skvidal> and live with the losses, if they come
21:17:31 <mizmo> the more visions you have for example the more complex and difficult communication is
21:17:48 <mizmo> it's not just, 6 people = 6 tasks or 3 tasks with two people each, that is oversimplifying it
21:18:04 <abadger1999> mizmo: But that's not inherent in having multiple visions.... it's in how we've decided to setup our enacting of those visions.
21:18:17 <mizmo> the more things we're doing the more complex the project is, the harder it is to describe, the harder it is to communicate, the harder it is to get anything done on an exponential scale
21:18:21 <mizmo> zero sum seems to assume linear
21:18:33 <mizmo> abadger1999, i believe it *is* inherent in having multiple visions
21:18:42 <mizmo> i dont see how it can't be
21:19:10 <abadger1999> mizmo: I think it isn't inherent.  I think it's in how we've set it up.
21:19:17 <mizmo> i dont understand
21:19:20 <mizmo> can you explain?
21:19:40 <abadger1999> We've made things be interdependent to an extent that people have to communicate with each other in complex ways.
21:19:59 <mizmo> im not talking about our specific implementation. no matter what, the more complex a system (any system - a distro, a public library, a church, a government) the more difficult it is to get things done with the same # of people
21:20:14 <abadger1999> But if the complexity of communication is our limiting factor, then we should be optimizing that -- even if it means other resources are being used quicker.
21:20:57 <mizmo> " We've made things be interdependent to an extent that people have to communicate with each other in complex ways." <= can you give a specific example of this? i'm not totally grokking it
21:21:52 <abadger1999> So, for instance, what if Fedora produced different distros which could have separate package sets?  If that were the case there'd be more manpower needed, more room for files to be taken, but there would be less need for someone working on the "Fedora Server" to have to communicate with the person working on the "Fedora Desktop"
21:22:15 <mizmo> i thought that was the idea behind spins...
21:22:31 <mizmo> and i really kind of dislike the idea of spins
21:22:38 <mizmo> just because it makes the idea of 'fedora' extremely complex
21:22:46 <abadger1999> mizmo: I thought that too but mmcgrath notting and others said no, not really -- and currently, they aren't.
21:22:48 <mizmo> 'i want to download fedora - wow which of these 50 permutations is fedora?'
21:23:18 <mizmo> i think that is because folks complaining that they dont agree with the direction don't really step up
21:23:18 <abadger1999> mizmo: I think that's a brand problem and we could definitely solve that, yes.
21:23:18 <maxamillion> mizmo: should we break out and have a bunch of different forks like *buntu and break the community up?
21:23:29 <mizmo> so i dont think enabling them is really going to accomplish anything
21:23:34 <brunowolff> I am not a big fan of published spins myself. I want ways to make custom spins and example ks files as starting points.
21:23:51 <mizmo> if someone really cared about 'fedora server' they should have done it by now
21:24:02 <mizmo> if nobody has, there isn't enough interest, so why the heck should we be focusing on such a thing?
21:24:20 <abadger1999> mizmo: Let's say that we had Fedora (which is the desktop spin) and Lacrosse (which is a hypothetical Server Spin), they could have separate branding, separate urls, etc.
21:24:32 <mizmo> i think we kinda gotta pay more attention to the votes made with feet, not mouths
21:24:40 <abadger1999> but still all use koji and have Shared SOPs for rel-eng, etc.
21:24:54 <mizmo> that's not fedora
21:24:59 <mizmo> that's fedora + something else based on fedora
21:25:04 <mizmo> which is completely possible today
21:25:07 <mizmo> but nobody has done it
21:25:31 <mizmo> (am i missing something?)
21:25:33 <abadger1999> it's Fedora in that we're sharing the resources that the Fedora Project has.  It's not Fedora in that It's its own distribution.
21:25:43 <mizmo> but how are we not enabling that today?
21:25:44 <abadger1999> Which I think may be something that we should look at --
21:25:52 <brunowolff> Who is we?
21:25:55 <mizmo> anybody who wants to make lacrosse can do that right now
21:25:58 <mizmo> we is the fedora project
21:26:01 <abadger1999> mizmo: They can't .
21:26:03 <mizmo> what other we would there be
21:26:04 <mizmo> why not?
21:26:52 <brunowolff> The ones that want this so badly, but don't seem to be working on it?
21:27:19 <smooge> maxamillion, as an outsider I think the Ubuntu micro-communities (different spins) look more 'united' than we do with our single sping. But that is probably grass is greener context :)
21:27:25 <abadger1999> They don't have the www.lacrosseproject.org website.  Or the lacrosseproject.org/wiki instance or a lcs-1 branch in git.
21:27:34 <brunowolff> Just like the ones that want special repos for recent releases of particular packages but insist on someone else doing it, after
21:27:46 <brunowolff> it is pointed out that they can just go ahead and do it.
21:27:51 <mizmo> brunowolff, yeh i dont understand wouldn't we see some attempts towards making it?
21:27:55 <mizmo> if there were really interest in such a thing?
21:28:00 <abadger1999> I think the closest we had to something like that was OLPC -- but OLPC was a different kind of project than Fedora.
21:28:12 <mizmo> maybe they couldn't get 100% there, abadger1999, but certainly if the (foot, not mouth) interest existed we'd see some efforts towards that
21:28:31 <maxamillion> smooge: I spent 8 months contributing to Xubuntu before finding my way to Fedora and the Spins bit is much more united, anything that's not strictly Ubuntu is a bastard child and more or less ignored by anyone from Canonical (or at least that's how it was when I left ... maybe things have changed)
21:28:42 <brunowolff> It may be that people want to but don't know they can. Or maybe those people are using centos or maybe there isn't much interest.
21:29:18 <brunowolff> But spins is not sustainable in its current form.
21:29:44 <brunowolff> The spin owners all seem to run off into their own corners and do stuff individually and not as a group.
21:30:02 <maxamillion> brunowolff: isn't that kind of the point?
21:30:04 <smooge> maxamillion, it probably has not changed.. but the outside view of it was that they are all a happy community all working towards the greater good  :). The infighting does not get front page coverage on LWN :)
21:30:07 <brunowolff> No.
21:30:08 <abadger1999> brunowolff: +1  spins as currently implemented are in a sorry state.
21:30:16 <maxamillion> smooge: good point
21:31:03 <mizmo> abadger1999, i think if we did as you suggested we'd be a distro incubator, not a distro
21:31:06 <brunowolff> There isn't really infighting. It's pretty much a lack of collaberation.
21:31:12 <abadger1999> mizmo: Exactly.
21:31:17 <abadger1999> mizmo: at one level.
21:31:21 <brunowolff> It makes it hard to develop best practices and the like.
21:31:24 <abadger1999> mizmo: We have the Fedora Project.
21:31:32 <abadger1999> and we have the Fedora Distribution.
21:31:54 <mizmo> abadger1999, but how does that further our cause?
21:31:54 <maxamillion> and then we have Fedora Spins
21:32:03 <mizmo> abadger1999, eg suse has such a system with their builder stuff
21:32:04 <brunowolff> If it were just up to me, I'd drop everything but Desktop and KDE as offiicial spins and make everything else unoffiicial.
21:32:08 <mizmo> abadger1999, has it really helped them?
21:32:09 <abadger1999> make multiple "Fedora Distributions" that are all supported by the Fedora Project and the Project can continue to grow.
21:32:25 <mizmo> abadger1999, but that is going to be spreading ourselves thinly
21:32:30 <abadger1999> but the distributions can each establish their own identity.
21:32:34 <mizmo> in the same way we have all these spins that are barely maintained
21:32:37 <mizmo> each has its own identity
21:32:43 <abadger1999> mizmo: I think it's more like foresight Linux and RPath than like OpenSuse.
21:32:53 <mizmo> the design suite spin isn't even building now. the iso we have on spins.fpo has no network support. and it took months for the maintainers to realize this.
21:33:10 <mizmo> i dont see how enabling 100 different distros makes the world a better place
21:33:14 <abadger1999> Opensuse seems to have just a flexible build-system.... but what alternate distributions have you heard that are built from opensuse?
21:33:15 <maxamillion> brunowolff: if you're going to go that far, why even keep KDE? just stick with the golden child and ignore the rest
21:33:17 <mizmo> i feel like the more distros we have, the mo' problems
21:33:36 <abadger1999> bbi 10 min.  picking up kid.
21:33:47 <mizmo> because to outsiders who dont know much about linux, as it is the fedora - suse - red hat - ubuntu - debian split is overwhelming
21:34:04 <brunowolff> I think KDE is a pretty big interest group that can do effective QA and related stuff.
21:34:04 <skvidal> mizmo: and to be fair - that segment
21:34:15 <brunowolff> The rest are pretty small.
21:34:16 <skvidal> users who don't know what linux is?
21:34:25 <skvidal> and who are moving toward it?
21:34:31 <skvidal> is a really small number of people
21:34:36 <skvidal> not b/c everyone knows what linux is
21:34:41 <mizmo> i know what linux is
21:34:46 <mizmo> and i dont even know why i would ever want to use suse
21:34:50 <skvidal> but b/c we've plateaued in user adoption
21:34:59 <mizmo> my guess is 'a good kde distro' but i really have no clue
21:35:02 <mizmo> there are too many linux distros for me
21:35:19 <mizmo> skvidal, i dont think thats the case
21:35:28 <maxamillion> mizmo: opensuse is actually a pretty solid distro if you want to be able to do *everything* from a gui ... its what I like to call "linux for my mom"
21:35:38 <mizmo> skvidal, i had a meeting with a priest this afternoon who is part of the outreach program at a local church
21:35:42 <maxamillion> I run it in a VM every now and again to see what they are up to in the opensuse camp
21:35:55 <skvidal> mizmo: really? I worry that non-server deployments are on a long plateau
21:36:00 <mizmo> fedora could meet a lot of their needs. they have never heard of linux before. they need design tools to publish their bulletins etc
21:36:04 <mizmo> but they can't afford the adobe suite
21:36:09 <mizmo> they are looking to up their game
21:36:11 <skvidal> but that's not about linux
21:36:16 <mizmo> it is
21:36:16 <skvidal> that's about free software
21:36:17 <skvidal> isn't it?
21:36:33 <mizmo> well fair enough
21:36:43 <skvidal> linux == giant pain in the ass for the users
21:36:44 <mizmo> it is more about free software
21:36:50 <mizmo> but it doesn't have to be
21:36:55 <mizmo> it really doesnt
21:36:57 <skvidal> free software == free tools and "freedom"
21:37:08 <mizmo> maxamillion, please don't say "linux for my mom"
21:37:17 <maxamillion> mizmo: why?
21:37:19 <mizmo> every time someone says "linux for my mom" or "linux for my grandma" another blood vessel pops in my forehead
21:37:40 <maxamillion> mizmo: heh ... alright, I will refrain
21:37:42 <mizmo> because it is perpetuating the notion that older females are somehow less competent in technically sophisticated systems
21:37:45 <mizmo> my mom
21:37:49 <mizmo> is fucking awesome with computers
21:37:58 <maxamillion> mizmo: ok ... "linux for my dad"
21:38:03 <mizmo> thank you
21:38:04 <mizmo> :)
21:38:10 <mizmo> my forehead thanks you as well
21:38:12 <maxamillion> mizmo: both my parents are equally fail infront of a computer
21:38:19 <maxamillion> mizmo: actually ... my dad is probably more so than my mom
21:38:28 <maxamillion> poor guy can't setup a printer without calling me
21:38:35 <mizmo> skvidal, they care about free as in beer and quality
21:38:37 <maxamillion> annnnnyhoo
21:38:47 <mizmo> skvidal, they are using microsoft publisher now because it came with their computers - but it isn't up to snuff
21:39:04 <mizmo> we can solve that problem
21:39:10 <skvidal> mizmo: would we help them more
21:39:17 <skvidal> by solving it by making inkscape or something
21:39:19 <skvidal> run on windows
21:39:24 <mizmo> skvidal, yep inkscape & scribus can do a lot of things publisher cant
21:39:28 <skvidal> or by putting linux on their computers and dealing with that headache?
21:39:44 <mizmo> how about making linux not a headche instead :( what is wrong with that?
21:39:49 <maxamillion> ok, so lets put in a ticket to FESCo or the Board ... or whoever needs to bless it, to drop the spins and let the elected officials hash it out... would that make everyone happy?
21:39:51 <skvidal> mizmo: linux - sure
21:39:53 <skvidal> fedora?
21:39:54 <skvidal> maybe not
21:39:58 <mizmo> why not?
21:40:01 <rbergeron> inkscape runs on windows, unless i'm having severe memory problems
21:40:03 <skvidal> b/c our target is NOT them
21:40:08 <mizmo> rbergeron, scribus does not
21:40:19 <brunowolff> There is also discussion about spins going on in the blocker meeting.
21:40:22 <mizmo> rbergeron, generally ported versions of gimp are well behind the linux supported versions
21:40:40 <maxamillion> brunowolff: what channel?
21:40:43 <skvidal> I don't think our users are the mostly computer illiterate who really love upgrading nearly-constantly.
21:40:51 <mizmo> skvidal, our official target as stated on the wiki certainly fits the priest i spoke to this afternoon
21:40:53 <jsmith> maxamillion: #fedora-meeting
21:40:55 <skvidal> and have computers old enough to run ms-publisher
21:40:56 <brunowolff> There really needs to be a board discussion on that topic very soon.
21:40:58 <maxamillion> jsmith: thank you sir
21:41:04 <brunowolff> fedora-meeting
21:41:10 <mizmo> skvidal, they are running ms publisher on windows 7....
21:41:23 <mizmo> and htey're not computer illiterate
21:41:43 <skvidal> mizmo: they are APP literate but overly "computer" illiterate I would bet
21:42:09 <skvidal> ie: can use many computer apps but don't know or care what kind of network card or disk they have
21:42:09 <mizmo> skvidal, no this is a pretty tech savvy church
21:42:19 <rbergeron> gimp isn't anything i'd throw at any average end user, regardless of what OS they were using.
21:42:23 <mizmo> hardware illiterate i'd give you :)
21:42:25 <smooge> may drop off .. Georgette is dropping a couple of inches of rain here
21:42:38 <mizmo> rbergeron, gimp is pretty easy for kids, harder for people who have molded themselves into the photoshop way of doing things
21:42:49 <maxamillion> I'm with skvidal on this one, if they haven't found a solution and they have just defaulted to publisher ... I can't agree they are very will versed in the ways of computrons
21:42:54 <mizmo> but there is no such thing as an average user it is a myth
21:42:55 <rbergeron> yes, i have 2 gimp addicts who love to stamp things here.
21:43:03 <mizmo> maxamillion, they can't afford adobe creative suite
21:43:11 <mizmo> maxamillion, the only reason they have been using publisher is because of the $$
21:43:12 <maxamillion> mizmo: right, but that's not the only option
21:43:17 <mizmo> maxamillion, they have well outgrown publisher
21:43:23 <mizmo> and they'd rather not pirate...
21:43:26 <maxamillion> mizmo: there are free alternatives
21:43:31 <mizmo> like what?
21:43:32 <skvidal> piracy is immoral
21:43:34 <skvidal> :)
21:43:37 <rbergeron> ARRRRRRRR
21:43:44 <skvidal> it's as bad as molesting children
21:43:45 <skvidal> oh
21:43:45 <maxamillion> mizmo: I thought many were just listed, scribus being one of them
21:43:45 <skvidal> wait
21:43:48 * skvidal went there
21:44:07 <mizmo> skvidal, this is a catholic church whose congregation is 25% homosexual
21:44:08 <rbergeron> scribus's webpage says they have windows downloads, not to go down a rabbit hole :)
21:44:12 <maxamillion> skvidal: I can respect that coming from you, as a person who makes their living writing code
21:44:20 <maxamillion> skvidal: devs gotta eat ;)
21:44:26 <mizmo> yeh, lets not go down a rabbit hole as its not productive
21:44:31 <skvidal> indeed
21:44:41 <smooge> ok lets get out of the rabbit hole please
21:44:56 <abadger1999> skvidal: And talking in the theater?
21:45:04 <skvidal> abadger1999: the special hell
21:45:12 <abadger1999> :-)
21:45:16 <mizmo> i am so frustrated
21:45:17 <brunowolff> I was going to say that.
21:45:22 <mizmo> i should just give up
21:45:34 <mizmo> people want to nitpick about bullshit
21:45:38 <mizmo> instead of get things done
21:45:41 <mizmo> and i am so, so tired of it
21:45:45 <brunowolff> But considering Christina Hendricks, maybe going to the special hell would be OK?
21:45:49 <skvidal> mizmo: I believe that is the crux of the problem
21:46:11 <skvidal> you can either
21:46:15 <maxamillion> mizmo: I think the conversation rounded at some point ... where was this started and what was the problem you were hoping to solve before the conversation wildly derailed?
21:46:25 <mizmo> maxamillion, come up with a vision statement for fedora
21:46:31 <maxamillion> oh ....
21:46:32 <maxamillion> about that
21:46:33 <skvidal> 1. have a vision, say it, enforce it and drill it in by yelling
21:46:49 <maxamillion> do we have one now?
21:46:52 <brunowolff> I liked jsmith's.
21:46:52 <skvidal> 2. discuss it and hope to come to consensus and be doomed to failure as the internets do not allow consensus - the long tail EATS you
21:47:04 <mizmo> every fucking time the vision statement gets brought up, there's this irrational fear that a vision statement will exclude someone so we better not even bother
21:47:13 <brunowolff> Some of the other stuff people said we needed to do, could really be derived from that.
21:47:22 <skvidal> mizmo: I think it has to exclude something
21:47:27 <skvidal> if it doesn't then what's the point?
21:47:29 <mizmo> yes! you cannot please everybody!
21:47:38 <mizmo> fedoras problem is we fucking want to please everyone
21:47:40 <mizmo> NOT POSSIBLE
21:47:42 <skvidal> then
21:47:45 <skvidal> you are saying
21:47:50 <skvidal> 1. I want a vision statement
21:47:59 <skvidal> 2. I want to exclude certain goals entirely
21:47:59 <jsmith> mizmo: I didn't say we shouldn't bother -- all I said was that many people expressed to me (both in public and in private) a desire to "replace" our current user base with a more desirable one
21:48:09 <skvidal> 3. I want to tell some people DO NOT PLAY HERE, THIS IS NOT FOR YOU
21:48:12 <mizmo> jsmith, i never said you said anything
21:48:23 <brunowolff> I do to. Unless it's really wacko, I'll still be around.
21:48:39 <brunowolff> It will help me decide where I am best spending my time on the project.
21:48:45 <skvidal> mizmo: and what I've said all along is stop trying to come to consensus on this
21:48:59 <skvidal> b/c consensus CANNOT HAPPEN when you are arguing to exclude somethings
21:48:59 <mizmo> in chatting here im not looking for consensus im looking for brainstorming
21:49:12 <maxamillion> 1. We're gnome centric but aren't against alternative environments,  we like new audiences but don't have unrealistic expectations the computer illiterate
21:49:12 <mizmo> if we all agreed we'd have no ideas
21:49:16 <ctyler> skvidal: what do you want to exclude in (2)
21:49:23 <skvidal> ctyler: I don't really care
21:49:25 <skvidal> that's the thing
21:49:31 <mizmo> skvidal, +1
21:49:31 <skvidal> pick a direction and go
21:49:32 <maxamillion> (not sure if that's a vision statement or not ... but its an observation that I think should be able to be agreed upon)
21:49:33 <mizmo> i dont care either
21:49:36 <skvidal> and anything that moves from there
21:49:37 <mizmo> just please pick SOMEthing
21:49:39 <skvidal> or tries to fuck with that
21:49:46 <skvidal> stop them
21:49:47 <skvidal> EOD
21:49:55 <ctyler> "make it smaller, get focused" ?
21:50:01 <skvidal> ctyler: just get focused
21:50:12 <skvidal> smaller has lots of other implications
21:50:17 <skvidal> which I don't care about
21:50:18 <skvidal> focused
21:50:26 <skvidal> BUT I WANT TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THIS
21:50:29 <skvidal> if you get focused
21:50:32 <mizmo> when you focus you can grow smarter!
21:50:35 <skvidal> be prepared for the consequences of focus
21:50:35 <ctyler> (smaller in scope == focused, is all I meant)
21:50:44 <brunowolff> I would think that if at least the board can reach a consensus, that should be good enough. We don't need consensus on the users list.
21:50:53 <brunowolff> Cause that isn't even going to happen.
21:51:13 <mizmo> several folks on the users list actively dont want fedora to grow its userbase
21:51:17 <jsmith> brunowolff: That's why we're having these discussions
21:51:28 <mizmo> in fact someone on there told me they dont want me teaching fedora to children because they'd rather not children use fedora
21:51:44 <skvidal> mizmo: well it does promote communism.. :)
21:51:58 <brunowolff> Wow. I thought I was on the extreme end of that view point, but I guess not.
21:52:18 <skvidal> brunowolff: I was kidding
21:52:28 <brunowolff> I am mostly interested in getting more contributors, but realize having a user base helps that. (At the cost of having to do
21:52:32 <brunowolff> more support.)
21:52:34 <mizmo> what consequences do you see focus bringing
21:52:37 <mizmo> skvidal^
21:52:43 <skvidal> mizmo: people leaving
21:52:50 <skvidal> mizmo: pigeon-holing
21:53:01 <skvidal> mizmo: "internal" consequences
21:53:19 <mizmo> skvidal, i gotta say some days..... the lack of vision certainly has me frustrated at levels i'd rather not be frustrated at....
21:53:27 <mizmo> skvidal, either way you're going to lose people!
21:53:37 <skvidal> and depending on the focus chosen those internal consequences could be..... bad.
21:53:42 <maxamillion> so ... lets drop the spins, refocus on establishing the Fedora brand and the Fedora experience?
21:54:22 <mizmo> skvidal, so those are mines we have to watch for
21:54:24 <skvidal> maxamillion: okay so the vision statement:" One fedora, targeting our userbase and if you get in our way with your use case, you can suck eggs"?
21:54:42 <maxamillion> skvidal: done, print ... lets go home
21:54:43 <mizmo> skvidal, thats more the method than the destination i think hehe
21:54:49 <skvidal> mizmo: blah blah
21:54:50 <skvidal> :)
21:55:25 <maxamillion> skvidal: I'm a DE whore ... I have a Gnome 2.x machine, a Gnome shell powered laptop, a KDE powered workstation here at the office and a Xfce spin powered netbook ... I like it all
21:55:40 <maxamillion> but I think if we're going to try and focus then we need to work on the Fedora brand
21:56:16 <maxamillion> its possible that official spins might need to be abandoned and just exist as kickstarts that users can build off of (maybe add support to Revisor for it to auto build a spin for you)
21:56:46 <mizmo> i think even better
21:56:55 <mizmo> spins are package groups you can easily install as an add-on bundle
21:56:55 <maxamillion> when I make statements like "drop it all and focus on the golden child" I'm only half joking, I completely understand the point of that
21:57:41 <jsmith> Sorry folks... I've got to run.
21:57:42 <maxamillion> mizmo: that'd be cool but I think that proposes an installation nightmare because if you install from live media (like I always do) you're stuck installing from the default live image and then adding more stuffs to your machine
21:57:47 <maxamillion> jsmith: have a good one!
21:57:50 <jsmith> I'll try to catch up on the rest of the dicussion later.
21:57:55 <mizmo> maxamillion, adding more stuffs after isn't so ba dthough
21:57:56 <smooge> who started the meeting?
21:58:00 <mizmo> smooge, i did
21:58:14 <maxamillion> mizmo: it is for me, my internet is horridly slow
21:58:15 <smooge> ok wanted to make sure it didn't go into limbo with jsmith went away
21:58:31 <maxamillion> mizmo: we're talking .... I install fresh Fedora, set it to run updates and go to bed .... might be done when I wake up
21:58:40 <mizmo> maxamillion, your experience is going to suck anyway due to the 700 post-GA updates you will inevitably have to grab
21:58:49 <smooge> alright so it takes about 990 src.rpms to make the minimal install. We have 9900
21:58:50 <maxamillion> mizmo: right, that too
21:59:29 <maxamillion> mizmo: which brings me back to the idea of the spins living as kickstarts and adding the functionality to revisor to build installable images for those who really want that functionality
21:59:40 <skvidal> maxamillion: off in the weeds
21:59:42 <smooge> packages in the distro.. I would think that 9000 extra packages could be "add-ons" but not sure what it gets you
21:59:57 <mizmo> maxamillion, what if i want design shit and olpc shit?
22:00:05 <maxamillion> mizmo: that way to the new user, there is simply THE Fedora install image and those who are more advanced and are more inclined to carry a different install image are able
22:00:10 <maxamillion> skvidal: ?
22:00:24 <skvidal> maxamillion: the specificness of how spins be implemented
22:00:30 <maxamillion> skvidal: ah
22:00:34 <rbergeron> I'd like to see a robust platform for innovation for use by developers, with a front end that is shiny and easy enough for $userbase to access farmville and email. But I think the focus should be towards people who are wanting to bring the next generation of flossy applications, both server and desktop side, to $userbase. We can't free userbase if there isn't a solid place for people to work from.
22:00:40 <skvidal> might be too tight of a zoom
22:00:41 <rbergeron> And that's all i ahve to say because the school bus beckons.
22:00:51 <mizmo> maxamillion, the thing that spins get us is highlighting some of the domain-specific functionality we provide in neat little curated bundles
22:01:00 <mizmo> maxamillion, users think they have to choose between them but they dont
22:01:08 <maxamillion> mizmo: group install? I suppose your idea of the groups could stick and I think revisor already has the ability to pull in yum groups (I could be wrong) ... so on second thought, I think your idea would satisfy both needs
22:01:25 <ctyler> I'm tired of hearing Fedora framed in terms of target audience and user experience and desktops. I like that you can serve with it. I like that you can use it on your desktop. I like that you can use it on your notebook, a different type of desktop with different needs. The fact that it's a large and cohesive package universe is a great strength: you can take it and put different pieces together and assemble a useful combination that
22:01:25 <ctyler> works for you. I LIKE LEGO.
22:01:38 <mizmo> maxamillion, wouldn't it be nice to have a clean UI to pick through the 'spins' and pick which 'add on packs' you want for the base fedora
22:01:48 <skvidal> ctyler: and I would argue
22:01:51 <skvidal> that there are folks
22:01:57 <maxamillion> rbergeron: I think that's a solid vision statement
22:01:58 <skvidal> who want to produce a unified experience
22:02:07 <mizmo> there are folks who want a car to get them to work, not a bucket of parts
22:02:11 <skvidal> ctyler: and that desire - means control the experience top to bottom
22:02:30 <mizmo> i like rbergeron's statement as well
22:02:49 <maxamillion> rbergeron: dunno if that's what you were shooting for or not, but I think its a solid statement
22:02:57 <hircus> apologies for butting in, but there is one case when a spin is necessary: for targets where the base package set is already too big. e.g. Sugar, MeeGo, LXDE
22:03:34 <maxamillion> hircus: right, which is were a kickstart file and some nice revisor automated building would come in for those users who need/want that functionality
22:03:54 <ctyler> skvidal: controlling the experience top to bottom is a bad fit with the goal of rapidly advancing the state of open source
22:04:07 <skvidal> ctyler: http://blogs.gnome.org/mccann/tag/gnome-os/
22:04:08 <maxamillion> hircus: but keeping all of that stuff in the face of new users is confusing
22:04:11 <brunowolff> That is a technical issue that really is somewhat separate. I would like to see improvment on the mini spin base front.
22:04:14 <skvidal> ctyler: I think then, we have a problem
22:04:16 <hircus> so I guess the spins on top of the standard GNOME desktops will no longer be necessary (e.g. design suite)
22:04:18 <mizmo> but what use is functionality if its not accessible
22:04:24 <rbergeron> a platform for innovation with functionality for everyone. And that's attainable for us, reasonable, and really focuses on what we've historically been reasonably good at.
22:04:36 <brunowolff> That is really enabling technology, not spin specific technology.
22:04:42 <hircus> but alternate desktops .. I can imagine KDE users (the more vocal ones) not being happy that they have to manually uninstall GNOME post-install :)
22:04:47 <maxamillion> mizmo: why isn't it accessible?
22:05:01 <skvidal> mizmo: I have to jet to acquire food for the girl
22:05:05 <mizmo> maxamillion, because you have to build it from the ground up to use it
22:05:08 <rbergeron> And nobody else is doing it; we're not trying to have the goal of let's be #2. The goal should be to enable the use of free software; providing a place where people can *do* that effectively needs to be done.
22:05:27 <skvidal> mizmo: but at this point any focus/vision statement that isn't weasel-worded into meaninglessness has a +1 from me
22:05:31 * rbergeron departs
22:05:40 <maxamillion> mizmo: well, no ... you only need to build if you want that to be your installation medium ... you should still be able to obtain those bits via groups
22:05:43 <skvidal> mizmo: I'll look at it when it is done and I'll determine then if fedora is the distro for me, or not
22:05:49 <mizmo> hehe okay
22:05:56 <ctyler> skvidal: do *you* think that a cohesive, controlled user experience from top to bottom is desirable?
22:06:05 <skvidal> ctyler: desireable to me?
22:06:09 <mizmo> maxamillion, if the default install medium is just a random group of packages spun together, it's still a bucket of parts
22:06:14 <skvidal> ctyler: personally or professionally?
22:06:32 <maxamillion> mizmo: I think you're misunderstanding me .... let me try again
22:06:39 <mizmo> sure
22:06:41 <ctyler> skvidal: both. Do you want it, and do you think it's desirable for Fedora?
22:06:57 <skvidal> ctyler: personally I am an incredibly light weight user - I use web apps, email and IM
22:07:00 <mizmo> ctyler, i disagree with the controlled
22:07:11 <mizmo> ctyler, curated sure. controlled? no
22:07:14 <abadger1999> skvidal: and ssh :-)
22:07:25 <skvidal> ctyler: professionally I think that the desktop is dead and the only apps we should care about are web-based apps
22:07:36 <skvidal> abadger1999: personally? ?No - I don't really use ssh personally
22:07:42 <maxamillion> mizmo: we will keep the default live CD and the DVD installer, but abandon the spins in their current state .... move the spins off to a kickstart-only setup where they can be built by those who are savvy enough to understand what they are and what their purpose is, where as we keep the "Fedora branded experience" centric to the default "Desktop Spin" known as the liveCD
22:08:04 <ctyler> skvidal: which takes us back to mmcgrath's web-services  pov, to some extent
22:08:05 <abadger1999> Oh, okay.
22:08:12 <skvidal> ctyler: absolutely
22:08:18 <maxamillion> mizmo: so to new users, there's two options "live install" or "dvd install" ... if people want groups of packages, then that's a post install issue ... if people want a specialized installation image, that's a revisor issue
22:08:21 <skvidal> ctyler: I'm completely +1 to that PoV
22:08:37 <ctyler> I'm +1 to that POV but think it's not the entire story
22:08:51 <skvidal> ctyler: I think we are chasing a train that is so far ahead of us that we can't tell it is NO LONGER A TRAIN
22:08:58 <mizmo> maxamillion, sure, but that doesnt solvethe problem of what that live/dvd install actually is
22:09:27 <ctyler> skvidal: There will be no Year of the Linux Desktop because there is No Desktop
22:09:31 <maxamillion> mizmo: the liveCD is the current default desktop liveCD and the DVD remains the same as well
22:09:36 <skvidal> ctyler: I think the rest of the story is having a 'desktop livecd' which logs into a webbrowser
22:09:43 <mizmo> maxamillion, but who is it for? what does it do?
22:09:54 <skvidal> ctyler: and that's it :)
22:10:20 <maxamillion> mizmo: its for the target audience as provided by the board's efforts and it drives you to work ... so to speak
22:10:22 <skvidal> ctyler: but FREEDOM is not mostly about the sw you're running locally anymore - it's about who controls/owns your data
22:10:28 <mizmo> maxamillion, .......
22:10:31 <skvidal> ctyler: and what THEIR systems are running
22:10:32 <maxamillion> mizmo: ?
22:10:51 <mizmo> maxamillion, right now our default spin isnt targeted towards our target audience
22:11:08 <skvidal> mizmo: it's not?
22:11:13 <mizmo> i dont think so
22:11:16 <skvidal> odd
22:11:16 <skvidal> ok
22:11:27 <maxamillion> mizmo: I thought it was
22:11:30 <mizmo> i think most people ignore the target audience if they even know it exists
22:11:38 <ctyler> skvidal: I work in a place that's creating the next generation of open web, and man, the desktop really is dead.
22:11:48 <mizmo> the little 'caroline' blog post i did was an attempt at personifying our current target audience
22:11:51 <skvidal> ctyler: great. can we get you and your people to come work for fedora?
22:11:56 <mizmo> caroline can't use our default
22:12:00 <ctyler> mizmo: our target audience definition is ridiculously broken
22:12:03 <skvidal> ctyler: b/c I'm all for it
22:12:09 <ctyler> skvidal: they work for some of the upstreams
22:12:11 <maxamillion> mizmo: why not?
22:12:32 <mizmo> maxamillion, i think they would run screaming at the installer alone
22:12:42 <skvidal> ctyler: can we rebrand your group 'fedoralabs' and claim this was our plan all along? :)
22:12:43 * ctyler has to run to dinner. Man, do I have some blogging to do :-)
22:12:47 <maxamillion> mizmo: I think that's fair to say for any OS installer
22:12:50 <skvidal> ctyler: excellent
22:12:56 <mizmo> maxamillion, our updates policies are a big problem as well
22:13:07 <mizmo> as the sealert applet
22:13:10 <mizmo> as is abrt's applet
22:13:22 <maxamillion> mizmo: I think caroline can't install an OS and needs it to just fire up on her brand new computer and Just Work (TM)
22:13:29 <mizmo> we cant do that
22:13:31 <maxamillion> right
22:13:34 <maxamillion> which is my point
22:13:34 <mizmo> we dont have contracts with hw manufacturers
22:13:35 <hircus> mizmo: uggh. abrt + casual users = packager nightmare
22:13:37 <mizmo> okay
22:13:38 <mizmo> i give up
22:13:40 <mizmo> i seriously give up
22:13:42 <mizmo> why do i bother?
22:13:49 <skvidal> mizmo: b/c you care
22:13:49 <maxamillion> mizmo: why do you give up?
22:13:49 <mizmo> THIS IS NOT WORTH MY TIME AND EFFORT
22:13:53 <mizmo> #endmeeting